The Warriors' problem

Discussion in 'Golden State Warriors' started by Warriorfansnc93, Aug 2, 2005.

  1. Warriorfansnc93

    Warriorfansnc93 JBB JustBBall Member

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    They have few clear cut starters. Yes, we are 10+ deep, but most of those guys are competing for the starting job.

    PG:
    Baron is the only clear starter on this team, but next to him is Fisher and Ellis. If Ellis plays as well as he did in the SL what does that mean for Fisher?

    SG:
    Jrich is the most identifiable starter but what about Pietrus? If I am Monty this season, I am going to stress defense more than last year. If you suck at defense, then you are out of the game. Pietrus played well last year and if he could score 18-20ppg, I think he should start over Jrich just for his defense alone. Not to mention he gets to the basket rather than relying on the jumper like Jrich. Dont forget Fisher also plays the SG sometimes...

    SF:
    Dunleavy is the incumbant, but is it Pietrus' time to shine? He plays vastly better defense than unleavy but Pietrus is more of a SG than SF. What about Z? Granted he does not play defense either, but I think he should be challenging Dunleavy for the starting SF spot...

    PF:
    Murphy again is the incumbent, but is Diogu going to replace him as the starting PF on this team? Murphy is a double double guy; I say who cares. I would rather have a double double guy who plays down low, than a double double guy who gets most of his points on uncontested jump shots. I like how Diogu tries to block everything down low. Once he gets his timing down, I think he will be like Foyle in that department. The same goes for rebounding and his low post game. He will adjust very quickly like he has already in the SL. I predict by the end of the season Ike will be our starting PF. But again, what about Z? Will Taft or Biedrens play PF? Probably not until they can develop a consistent low post game and 10-15ft jumper.

    C:
    Foyle is the starter, but will Taft or Biedrens knock him off? Lets face it, Foyle is not a starter in this league. He is a great bench guy and a great locker room guy, but not a great center. Biedrens is much more exciting and can do everything Foyle can do. If he gets into Foyle trouble, then Foyle and Taft can spell him. haha. What about Taft? If he is the guy people have described him as he could be our late version of Dampier but with better hands. As bad as we hated Damp, we sure could have used a guy like him last year. All of these guys are capable of starting. Murphy may end up playing center just based off his size. He could draw bigger defenders away from the paint while Diogu provides the low post offense. That further clogs the middle.

    This is why I say the Warriors' problem is too much depth. There is no clear cut starter and we need to make sure EVERYONE gets a fair shake at a starting position. If you are starting, then you better not be upset if someone out plays you for your position. That goes for everyone including Jrich. I love him but the only real lock is Davis, and that will be gone if he pulls the stunts he pulled in NO which I dont see happening. What I see happening is Jrich and Dunleavy stepping up their offense a bit but really focusing on improving their defense. Murphy will work on his low post game and use it when needed, but he will start at center and Ike will play PF. They will reverse roles if need be. If match ups present themselves, then guys will come in as needed. The bench rotation will be Pietrus, Fisher, Biedrens, Zarko and Foyle. The other guys like Ellis, Taft etc will really have thier time cut out for them unfortunately unless someone goes down to injury. Personally I hope Foyle and Fisher get hurt since those guys are the most dispensable on the team and I would rather see the young guys play over them for developmental reasons. If they are not playing well and the game is on the line, then play the vets...
     
  2. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    I agree in that we have too much depth but i dont agree that Baron is the only guy to be a lock for the starter job. We have committed to J-Rich and J-Rich has committed to us, we dont pay him to be the back-up and he has been damn good in not complaining and working on his game even though our team is disappointing year in and year out. Not to mention he is one of our team captains and during the stretch when he was injured i believe we went 0-9 (or was it 1-9?).

    Dunleavy IMO should have to work to prove that he should start over Pietrus but I'm afraid that Mully will give him a Murphy contract even if Pietrus continues to make strides while Dun makes baby steps. Hopefully Mully will try to be unbiased and choose the better player in the long term because I dont see Pietrus sticking around too much longer before he demands to start or leave.

    The PF spot is currently held by Murphy and should be unless Ike shows that he is NBA ready. Once Ike is able to get the number of boards that Murphy does I believe we should ship Murphy because he just doesn't fit in our offense and he provides nothing that Ike wouldn't. Zarko shouldn't be a starter unless he starts to play better defense and rebound better, I dont see that happening anytime soon but he is a good back-up.

    Center seems to be the only position we can really upgrade at, we arent going to get any PGs better than B. Diddy, we arent going to get any SGs better than J-Rich, Mully is all over Dun's jock,we have a good offensive PF and we have our future PF waiting to start and he shouldn't take long to adjust. At center we have a back-up as a starter who has one skill and the future C is at least a year from starting.

    The Warriors will eventually need to trade 2 players for 1, perhaps we could land another big name who wants out at the all-star break.
     
  3. Map1986

    Map1986 JBB JustBBall Member

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    i think you are putting way too much faith in our rookies, maybe ike can beat or move murphy to center by mid-season, but ellis is not going to beat out fisher his first year and taft will get garbage time. Pietrus is great as a 6th man and situational, but still pulls the trigger too fast.

    pg: baron w/out a doubt
    sg: jrich w/out a doubt
    sf: dunleavy w/out a doubt
    pf: murphy w/ little doubt
    c: foyle could see a change here
     
  4. Warriorfansnc93

    Warriorfansnc93 JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">We have committed to J-Rich and J-Rich has committed to us, we dont pay him to be the back-up and he has been damn good in not complaining and working on his game even though our team is disappointing year in and year out. Not to mention he is one of our team captains and during the stretch when he was injured i believe we went 0-9 (or was it 1-9?). .</div>

    That is exactly the mentality I do not want us to get caught up in.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post"> I dont see Pietrus sticking around too much longer before he demands to start or leave..</div>

    I agree. This could really be motivation for him if he could supplant either Jrich or Dunleavy, preferably Dunleavy.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">The PF spot is currently held by Murphy and should be unless Ike shows that he is NBA ready. Once Ike is able to get the number of boards that Murphy does I believe we should ship Murphy because he just doesn't fit in our offense and he provides nothing that Ike wouldn't. Zarko shouldn't be a starter unless he starts to play better defense and rebound better, I dont see that happening anytime soon but he is a good back-up..</div>

    I think Ike will show he is ready before the All Star break. I also agree with you on Zarko.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">Center seems to be the only position we can really upgrade at. At center we have a back-up as a starter who has one skill and the future C is at least a year from starting..</div>

    Why is our future C a year from starting? Foyle is not any better than what we got waiting in the wings at this point. Would you rather see an over paid back up playing or a young guy who is our future?

    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">The Warriors will eventually need to trade 2 players for 1, perhaps we could land another big name who wants out at the all-star break.</div>

    I completely agree and I have been saying this for the last few months...
     
  5. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Warriorfansnc93:</div><div class="quote_post">Why is our future C a year from starting? Foyle is not any better than what we got waiting in the wings at this point. Would you rather see an over paid back up playing or a young guy who is our future?</div>

    Well for one Foyle is a much more polished and poised defender in the paint. Biedrins is a decent shotblocker but Foyle's timing is probably as good as anyone's in the league (he's got like a 4 inch vertical). Biedrins doesn't have the strength, mass, or knowledge to guard the Duncans, Elton Brands, Shaqs, etc. Once Biedrins gets more playing time against some of the 3rd and 2nd tier centers/power forwards he should learn more and more about how to defend certain moves and what to expect in what situations, things that one can only learn in a game. Biedrins is also all over the place and very foul prone, some are bad calls but hes still got to deal with it. Basically what is stopping us from starting Biedrins over Foyle is just knowledge and insticnts that can only be developed in games (and a bit of physical maturity). I dont know of any other 19 year olds starting at center and even our second youngest guy (Monta) is going to get garbage minutes, in comparison to other 19 year old guys around the league Biedrins is probably getting a ton of playing time.
     
  6. Warriorfansnc93

    Warriorfansnc93 JBB JustBBall Member

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    I say throw him to the wolves!
     
  7. CohanHater

    CohanHater JBB JustBBall Member

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    Foyle is the only viable starter at Center because he plays defense.
    Murphy will start because he needs to get his numbers so he will be tradable,
    Dunleavy's on a contract year and I anticipate him to start the year off better than he finished last year (plus he's a better basketball player than Pietrus right now). Pietrus is still too raw to start, same for Beans. J
    rich is 100% our starting 2 Guard as he is twice the player Pietrus is now.
    Davis has nobody behind him to push him for the starting job, however I can't think of many PGs in the league that would.
     
  8. jzblaze

    jzblaze JBB JustBBall Member

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    the first half of the season will answer a lot of questions. right now everything is just speculation and opinions. I'm really anxious to see how much your young players have improved. Also, I'm really curious as to how much we can actually count on Diogu for post offense. As in throw him the ball down low and he has to create his own shot. Monty has to step his game up too. Call timeouts earlier and start managing runs better. As for subsitution patterns he's in a real tough position cuz we have so many guys that can play and that need minutes to develop. last year I thought we did a really poor job of giving the right guys minutes, especially because we were eliminated from playoff contention so early. Well this year we'll be in the playoff hunt and that's when we really gonna find out who should be a part of our future. We definitely have to unload at least one or two guys tho by All-Star break and move forward with a shorter rotation.
     
  9. Kwan1031

    Kwan1031 JBB JustBBall Member

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    At least for next season, I don't think there will be many problem for starting rotation. Obviously, Fisher won't challenge starting job, and Ellis is far more close to SG then PG. Also, Richarson won't go anywhere in SG slot. I don't know how good Diogu will be in his first year, but judging from his summer league, I don't think he is that much upgrade in defense then Murphy in short term, and if that's the case, there really isn't a reason to bench 10 mils per year guy. Sure, Diogu can play traditional post up offense, but whether Murphy shoots from outside or Diogu scores from inside, 2 pts is 2 pts, and so far, we didn't have a problem scoring. Also, healthy and motivated Foyle is capable of taking loads of defense problem for this club, like how he impacted the game in late last season. And, if we want to win, we really need somebody to guard middle, and as exciting as Biedrins may be, Foyle defends the middle the best. SF spots are bit intriguing. As much as Dunleavy improved his play with Davis, Pietrus is the one who really benefitted playing with Davis. Before Davis, Pietrus barely shot 40% with averaging 7-8 pts. But, with Davis, he hit 50% from the field, about 38% from the 3 pts and improved his scoring average by 4+ pts, while playing similar mins. Also, Pietrus is playing better defense than Dunleavy, and sky is the limit for Pietrus, while Dunleavy's upside is getting there. But, as long as Mullin is GM, I don't think Pietrus will start.

    So, at this point, I don't think any reserve player will challenge our starting rotation in next season...
     
  10. Warriorsfan

    Warriorsfan JBB JustBBall Member

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    This is what i think should happen

    1. Baron Davis
    2. J-rich
    3. Pietrus (what i like about him is he drives in and is like our best defender)
    4. Murphy
    5. Biedrins
     
  11. .cabangbang

    .cabangbang BBW Member

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    PG: We are set with Baron starting right. It is just the bench that is the problem. Monta from what I have heard is a poor man's AI which means that he can drive to the hoop fearlessly for his size, and is a good shooter. From waht I have heard he is a good defender. Fisher is a good clutch shooter, sucks at D, and chucks all the time. If you remember the time when J-Rich and Speedy were injured, how much we had to go through watching Fisher start. If Monta can do good in preseason, he will defenitly be playing a lot more.

    SG: J-Rich is the starter for sure. The only problem we have is his defense. If Monty is going to stress D more, J-Rich will be sitting a bit more and Pietrus will play a lot more.

    SF: This is the most debated position right now. We have Pietrus who is a very explosive offensive player, not scared of going to the hoop, good shooter, and is a great lockdown defender. Then there is Dunleavy, the soft, more traditional SF. Good shooter, better passer, weak in the post often got posted up by PGs. My choice is Pietrus with about 25 mins or so and 5-10 at SG. Dunleavy gets the rest of the minutes at SF. At the backup we have Zarko and Pietrus or Dunleavy. Zarko is more likely first SF off the bench back-up if Dunleavy plays moving Pietrus to SG and second string back-up SF. If Pietrus starts, we will see Dunleavy being the first SF off of the bench and Zarko logging equal mintues at SF and PF.

    PF: Right now Murphy is going to start for sure. His big problem is his constant three point bombs, however accurate they may be he needs to play the post. Ike Diogu and Zarko Cabarkapa will play equal minutes at PF. When the small lineup is in, Zarko comes in to go to the hoop with classy style or shoot. With a more post offense opponent, Digou will play for defense and his post game.

    C: Right now Foyle is going to start the first few weeks because he is the veteran and more seasoned then Biedrins. If Biedrins can stay out of foul trouble and shows that he can do good off of the bench, Beans will be starting by December. Chris Taft is the Warriors third string C right now. He is a project, but he will get some garbage minutes.
     
  12. Clif25

    Clif25 JBB JustBBall Member

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    The Warriors' problem, does not lie in the starting rotation nor in lack of depth nor in lack of talent. The Warriors' problem was that they finally stepped up their games a little too late last year or the season ended too soon(which ever one you like more). The Warriors' problem for this upcoming year would also not lie in those areas previous listed, but within the coaching staff. The Warriors have the players to win. I believe there are about 7-9 players who could put up 10+ points any given night. I believe that the defense should not be a big weakness- except for a few occassions with Dunleavy at SF, and Murphy at PF; though Pietrus and the added depth of the front court and Andris Biedrins should help in those areas tremendously, and if used correctly by the coaching staff, I wouldn't expect to be hurt night in and night out because of Dunleavy and Murphy as defenders.

    Going back to my opinion of the Warriors' problem- the coach- I am not too pleased with Mike Montgomery as head coach. I personally didn't like his preseason comments. He would say a few times that the league was a players' league and that the coach has a little affect on the team's performances. I disagree with that statement and believe, strongly. I believe that this attitude was shown in his first season as well. He seemed to extremely limit the powers a coach has on games and players. With the amount of depth and talent this team has, the amount of pressure on Mike Montgomery to make the right decisions with higher accuracy, is going to be multiplied. I am hoping that Mike Montgomery will step up to the plate this year, and becomes a smarter and more innovative coach for this team. In the West where everyone has talent, chemistry is the thing that carries teams into the playoffs, and what leaves teams out of the playoffs. Chemistry is what carries the young teams to success, such as the Kings, when they were starting to rise, the Suns and Sonics last year, the Heat the year before, etc. I am putting hope that the Warriors can play with this chemistry, as they did at the end of last season, to carry themselves into the playoffs. Because I do not see a problem in the starting lineup or talent on the team or the depth.
     
  13. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    I doubt Biedrins will have the starting job any time this year. Mullin likes Foyle and he will probably stick with him through the year just so that he doesn't look like an idiot. If Foyle plays like he did at the end of last season (6 pts, 8-11 rebs, 3 blocks) then he will have the starting job uncontested plus he wouldn't seem nearly as overpaid.

    On the starting SF issue, another problem with starting Pietrus is that he is undersized for a SF. Dun is at least 6'9, probably close to 6'10 and even if Pietrus is a better defender, the fact that Dunleavy is as big as those 6'8 to 6'10 SFs will help greatly. We couldn't put J-Rich on those guys, even if he is stronger, because apparently he is actually 6'4.
     
  14. jzblaze

    jzblaze JBB JustBBall Member

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    Kwan,

    I meant our rotation as a whole, not jsut the starters. Right now we got like 10+ players that can play. We need to shave that to 8 or 9 for a myriad of reasons; development, getting results from our investments(if we dont then trade those players for future cap flexibility or specific type of role players), keeping players happy. And inside and outside scoring are a huge difference. Shooting percentage, quality of shots(making opponents tire out on d), ability to draw fouls, and starting an opponents fast break are just the beginning. 40% from your PF who shoots jumpers is not good. But Murph rebounds so we need him in there to start our own break. I have a feeling he will shoot and score less next year but have his shooting percentage improve a lot. If that happens and he get his boards still then we're fine. 12/10 or 11/10 would be great numbers for him on a winning team. Also I'm not sure Diogu can score in the post against NBA level competition yet, I think that remains to be seen. But none of the draft picks are locks to be able to score in the low post IMO.
     
  15. CohanHater

    CohanHater JBB JustBBall Member

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    Last year there were times where we had 7 active players. I seriously dount having 10 solid players is a disadvantage, especially when the guys on the bench have different skill sets than the starters.
     
  16. GiantMidget

    GiantMidget JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">On the starting SF issue, another problem with starting Pietrus is that he is undersized for a SF. Dun is at least 6'9, probably close to 6'10</div> Yeah but Dunleavy is a 6'9 bean pole with average athleticism.Pietrus is a physical specimen,which is what SF's are supposed to be.The Warriors should split the minutes between Dunleavy and Pietrus as evenly as possible for the sake of Pietrus's development.Come 06-07 Pietrus should start and Dunleavy should be traded.
     
  17. Warriorfansnc93

    Warriorfansnc93 JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting GiantMidget:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah but Dunleavy is a 6'9 bean pole with average athleticism.Pietrus is a physical specimen,which is what SF's are supposed to be.The Warriors should split the minutes between Dunleavy and Pietrus as evenly as possible for the sake of Pietrus's development.Come 06-07 Pietrus should start and Dunleavy should be traded.</div>


    By then Dunleavy will be a FA...
     
  18. Kwan1031

    Kwan1031 JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">
    On the starting SF issue, another problem with starting Pietrus is that he is undersized for a SF. Dun is at least 6'9, probably close to 6'10 and even if Pietrus is a better defender, the fact that Dunleavy is as big as those 6'8 to 6'10 SFs will help greatly. We couldn't put J-Rich on those guys, even if he is stronger, because apparently he is actually 6'4.</div>

    Well, here is a problem. We are already putting Richardson and Pietrus to taller and stronger players then Dunleavy. I can understand that Monty wants to put Richardson and Pietrus over quicker SFs. However, there is no excuse that Monty prefer them over Dunleavy to guard taller and stronger SFs or even PFs such as Anthony or Dirk. What does it tell you about the defense when your coach put more faith on 6'6" guards to guard 6'11" premier PF, instead of 6'10" SF? They are already guarding tougher players, and even take some duty to guard premier PFs when we go small, so whether you are 6'10" or 7'10", if you don't use your height to defend, it's useless...
     
  19. Kwan1031

    Kwan1031 JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting jzblaze:</div><div class="quote_post">Kwan,

    I meant our rotation as a whole, not jsut the starters. Right now we got like 10+ players that can play. We need to shave that to 8 or 9 for a myriad of reasons; development, getting results from our investments(if we dont then trade those players for future cap flexibility or specific type of role players), keeping players happy. And inside and outside scoring are a huge difference. Shooting percentage, quality of shots(making opponents tire out on d), ability to draw fouls, and starting an opponents fast break are just the beginning. 40% from your PF who shoots jumpers is not good. But Murph rebounds so we need him in there to start our own break. I have a feeling he will shoot and score less next year but have his shooting percentage improve a lot. If that happens and he get his boards still then we're fine. 12/10 or 11/10 would be great numbers for him on a winning team. Also I'm not sure Diogu can score in the post against NBA level competition yet, I think that remains to be seen. But none of the draft picks are locks to be able to score in the low post IMO.</div>

    Yeah, we already had very nice 9 men rotation going at the end of last season, and we added 3 quality rookies, whom played very nicely in summer league. There certainly is a possibility that our bench players can surpass our starters someday. However, I don't think that would be the case next season. Rookies won't complain even if they don't get the mins they think they deserve, and we can use them as insurance backups while watching them improve. Also, like CH mentioned, it's very tough to have injury free season, and except one year, we were always heavily injured in last 5-6 years. But yeah, I also think there should be some sort of movement in next offseason, whether we like it or not...
     
  20. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting GiantMidget:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah but Dunleavy is a 6'9 bean pole with average athleticism.Pietrus is a physical specimen,which is what SF's are supposed to be.The Warriors should split the minutes between Dunleavy and Pietrus as evenly as possible for the sake of Pietrus's development.Come 06-07 Pietrus should start and Dunleavy should be traded.</div>

    I agree that Pietrus should start assuming Pietrus continues to develop at the same rate he has been the last few months of the season. The only problem is that when we have to play Lamar Odom or Rashard Lewis or Carmelo or anyone 6'9 + then Pietrus can easily be shot over or posted up. If Pietrus adds a little more bulk then he could hold his own in the post and his length should be enough to annoy taller guys. Right now he isn't strong enough to play SF against some of the bigger SFs so if we are planning to start him i would hope he gets stronger. Dont get me wrong, Midget or Kwan, I would rather have Pietrus start in the future and we drop Dun but realistically, Mullin will probably resign Dunleavy and Pietrus isn't quite ready to play SF full time against some SFs.
     

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