Murphy or Foyle at center?

Discussion in 'Golden State Warriors' started by mylie10, Sep 24, 2005.

  1. mylie10

    mylie10 JBB JustBBall Member

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    [​IMG] I realize that the season will start with Foyle at center and Murphy at the 4.
    If I had my choice I'd start Murphy at the 5.

    I honestly believe Ike will be ready to play right away. The guys the most polished draft pick the Warriors have had since Webber. As far as a post up player Ike's already our best.

    Back to center. As I look at all of the teams in the western conference, a front line of Murphy and Ike would be no worse off than Foyle and Murphy. What I like is the fact that Murph and Ike can hurt the opposing teams at the offensive end. With foyle in there, it takes away from our offense.

    Let's look at a few of the matchups foyle/Murphy vs. Murphy/Diogu:

    Denver; Camby/ K-Mart this is tough because of quickness
    Dallas; Damp/Nowitzki either way it's about the same
    Houston; Yao/Swift Murphy on Yao, Diogu on Swift
    Clips; Kaman/Brand Murph on Kaman, Diogu on Brand
    Lakers; Mihm/Brown this ones a joke, we'll dominate
    Memphis; Wright/Gasol Maybe Foyle owuld be good here, shotblocking
    Min; Kandi/K.G. Tough matchup against KG, Kandi sucks
    N.O.; Magloire/PJ Brown Foyle or Ike on Mags, Murphy can handle Brown
    Suns; Grant/Amare No-one can handle Amare, Grant please
    Spurs; Nazri/ Duncan Ike on Duncan, Murphy on Nazri
    Kings; Miller/Shariff Murphy on Brad, Ike on Shariff
    Seattle; ?/Collison Collison's tougher than he looks, who's their center?
    Utah; Okur/Boozer Murphy on Okur, Ike on Boozer
    Port; Pryz/Randolph Murphy on Pryz, Ike on Randolph

    Now tell me why Murphy wouldn't be at least as good as Foyle in the west?
     
  2. Map1986

    Map1986 JBB JustBBall Member

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    foyle will be the starting center, but murphy will move to the center spot at times playing next to ike, but as for starters, foyle will be starting center for the season.
     
  3. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting mylie10:</div><div class="quote_post">Now tell me why Murphy wouldn't be at least as good as Foyle in the west?</div>
    Heres why. Foyle has to guard almost every player on the floor. He has to guard the other team's best big on the ball but mind you that we have Murphy, Dunleavy, Fisher, and Richardson all playing big minutes. These guys get driven on all the time, do you think Murphy could scare quick guards from penetrating let alone make his own defensive assignment hesitate to take a shot? Ike would have to cover guys like Tim Duncan and Kg as a rookie and as an undersized PF, that just doesnt work. Our team would give up 120 points a night if Foyle wasnt defending the Tim Duncans/KGs/ Elton Brands as well as blocking and changing shots from any penetrating guard or swing player. I bet if Foyle gets injured, we lose 60% of the games we play without him. Thats why i think he is the X factor for us, if he is in shape and grabs 10 boards, blocks 3 shots, and scores 6 points like he did at the end of last season then we will have success. If he doesnt get rebounds and alter shots, we fail.
     
  4. Kwan1031

    Kwan1031 JBB JustBBall Member

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    If somebody says that Dallas need to bench Dampier, move Dirk to center and insert Van Horn or Stackhouse for more scoring punch, we will probably wonder what he is smoking, because you know that the offense is a little problem for Dallas and removing their only defensive anchor Dampier will only harm them more then help them. We are in a similar boat.

    Murphy and Diogu line up may help us in offense while hurt us more in defense end, because Murphy has hard time guarding basically anybody and Diogu is undersized PF. Then, do we really need another scorer in our line up? With Davis, our team scored 109 pts per game and with Davis in starting line up, our team scored over 111 pts, good for no. 1 in league. In contrast, we allowed other team to shoot 46% from the field, which is 22th in the league. If we need to improve anything, that should be defense, not adding another offensive weapon by substituting our only defensive presence in the middle and make our dismal defense even worse.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?s...false&split=999

    Also, center's job is beyond just defending other center. Center is capable of bringing the presence in the middle and discourage other players to come to the middle, and that's quite important for defense. That's why our defense was half way decent with Dampier in the middle in last year(15th) and why Dallas dramatically improved their defense from 27th to 8th. In order to be a decent defensive team, you need a shot blocking presence in the middle or good individual defensive players, and if we get rid of Foyle, we get neither, because Murphy averages .47 per game, and judging from Diogu's .6 block per game in summer league, I doubt he will block more than one per a game either.

    With Davis, we will already challenge for top scoring team with Foyle in the middle. But, if we remove Foyle from starting line up for more offensive power, we will definitely challenge for the worst defensive team in the league. Idea of Murphy and Diogu may be sexy, because not only Diogu is fresh, having scoring machines at each position sounds betther than having a rough one like Foyle in the middle. But, if we do so, that will harm us far more...
     
  5. Custodianrules2

    Custodianrules2 Cohan + Rowell = Suck

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    I kind of believe the 5 man has to be the last line of defense as he's the biggest player on the floor that clogs up the middle and protects the basket. And when our last line of defense is Murphy, well... damn. That's all I can say is "Damn".

    Anyone familar with Dan Issel? That guy was so unorthodox for a center but yet he somehow managed to have a successful career and ended up as a hall of famer. Maybe center is a good position for Murphy. We don't know if we don't try. We've got to find some burn for our inside guys anyway. Not saying Murphy is a HoF like Issel, but maybe a guy with his talents is better utilized as a center. Now Murphy is a good passer, it's just that he doesn't pass much. [​IMG]

    Anyway, it's a hard sell since Murphy is kind of skinny for a center and he doesn't contest many shots. But at least he'll catch most passes and every now and then take a defender off the dribble and dunk on someone bigger (He has real trouble with the smaller guys, though [​IMG] ).
     
  6. Buckets

    Buckets JBB JustBBall Member

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    I think that Murphy is capable of playing at the 5 and doing more than expected, from what I've seen he's a very underrated player and is relatively young, I think he could make the transition, looking at who else they have.
     
  7. mylie10

    mylie10 JBB JustBBall Member

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    Ike will be a good help defender for our team. So your last line of d doesn't always have to come from the center. If you look at the teams I listed, Murphy will do fine with guys like Pryzb, Mihm, Dampier, Kaman, Kandi, Grant, Nazri, Miller, Okur, etc. That's the majority of the west fellas. Yes Ike's a rookie, and I'm not asking him to be a stopper, but his bulk, toughness, and savvy will be fine.

    Don't forget that we would have Foyle to come in at any time, so it's not like he's not there. If you guys think Foyle's so great, why do you bag on him all the time? His defense is his best quality, but Ik'e not a slouch as you'll see, and I guarantee Murphy's improved.

    I agree that defense is important to the overall success of a team. Don't get me started on Dunleavy. We get torched by small forwards more than any other position. A strong and defensive minded small forward is what this team needs more than Adonal Foyle. When Jason Kapono's eyes light up because of Dunleavy, we're in trouble.

    Ike will be able to punish quite a few small players driving to the hole. Foyle, hands of stone. Ike soft hands. Troy soft hands. Biedrins soft hands. Foyle terrible free throw shooter. Foyle no post moves. Foyle doesn't make other teams work at the other end. Sometimes defense can be played by forcing the other team to play defense on you.

    Foyles a great guy, but Ike and Troy will reap more benefits!
     
  8. mylie10

    mylie10 JBB JustBBall Member

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    also, Murphy's defensive rebounding is a defensive statistic. Foyl'es rebounding is semi-decent at best.
     
  9. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting mylie10:</div><div class="quote_post">Ike will be a good help defender for our team. So your last line of d doesn't always have to come from the center. If you look at the teams I listed, Murphy will do fine with guys like Pryzb, Mihm, Dampier, Kaman, Kandi, Grant, Nazri, Miller, Okur, etc. That's the majority of the west fellas. Yes Ike's a rookie, and I'm not asking him to be a stopper, but his bulk, toughness, and savvy will be fine. </div>
    While I agree that Murphy wouldnt have much of a problem with centers with little offensive game, he still cant block a shot worth a damn and therefore aalter shots. Also that leaves Ike on the PFs who are great in quality and quantity in the west these days.

    Also while all Warrior fans seem to despise Foyle, here at JBB it happens the least. You should also remember that we always rag on Fish too but how many back-ups in the league are better than Fisher? Hes probably a top 5 back-up PG in the league. I think if Foyle were getting payed 4 mils a year and Fisher were getting payed 3 mils a year people wouldnt hate them so much, but I guess we'll never know.
     
  10. Custodianrules2

    Custodianrules2 Cohan + Rowell = Suck

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Kwan1031:</div><div class="quote_post">If somebody says that Dallas need to bench Dampier, move Dirk to center and insert Van Horn or Stackhouse for more scoring punch, we will probably wonder what he is smoking, because you know that the offense is a little problem for Dallas and removing their only defensive anchor Dampier will only harm them more then help them. We are in a similar boat.

    Murphy and Diogu line up may help us in offense while hurt us more in defense end, because Murphy has hard time guarding basically anybody and Diogu is undersized PF. Then, do we really need another scorer in our line up? With Davis, our team scored 109 pts per game and with Davis in starting line up, our team scored over 111 pts, good for no. 1 in league. In contrast, we allowed other team to shoot 46% from the field, which is 22th in the league. If we need to improve anything, that should be defense, not adding another offensive weapon by substituting our only defensive presence in the middle and make our dismal defense even worse.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?s...false&split=999

    Also, center's job is beyond just defending other center. Center is capable of bringing the presence in the middle and discourage other players to come to the middle, and that's quite important for defense. That's why our defense was half way decent with Dampier in the middle in last year(15th) and why Dallas dramatically improved their defense from 27th to 8th. In order to be a decent defensive team, you need a shot blocking presence in the middle or good individual defensive players, and if we get rid of Foyle, we get neither, because Murphy averages .47 per game, and judging from Diogu's .6 block per game in summer league, I doubt he will block more than one per a game either.

    With Davis, we will already challenge for top scoring team with Foyle in the middle. But, if we remove Foyle from starting line up for more offensive power, we will definitely challenge for the worst defensive team in the league. Idea of Murphy and Diogu may be sexy, because not only Diogu is fresh, having scoring machines at each position sounds betther than having a rough one like Foyle in the middle. But, if we do so, that will harm us far more...</div>
    Those are some good arguments. What is interesting is the stat line on the fg % we allow each game. Even though there are some elite teams where we are on defense (like the Kings), at least 3 of their starting 5 can create their own offense and have some presence in the middle or inside the paint. Before Bdiddy, Jrich, Murph, Dunleavy, and our center all had trouble scoring the ball because they couldn't beat defenses. Jrich was our best guy at getting open or responding to and drawing double teams.
     
  11. Kwan1031

    Kwan1031 JBB JustBBall Member

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    Yes. We do not necessary have to get a help defense from 5. However, considering Diogu hasn't played single NBA game, I won't put too much trust on him just yet. If any, his defense in summer league left a lot to be desired. I don't know how Diogu will punish smaller guards, when he is only 6'8" with not so much hop and blocked only .6 in summer league. Also, Diogu can only be able to waste other pf's energy in offense end when he gets the ball a lot of times. The way our team is constructed, he will most likely be the last option in Murphy/Diogu starting line up with occassional feeds in the post.

    At this point, we are fine at offense, desperately need a defense presence, and Diogu is unproven. Once Diogu proves that he can bring more defense presence then Foyle, then we should talk about possible change in line up. But, until then, it's not logical to substitute our only defensive presence for another offense...
     
  12. Custodianrules2

    Custodianrules2 Cohan + Rowell = Suck

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Kwan1031:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes. We do not necessary have to get a help defense from 5. However, considering Diogu hasn't played single NBA game, I won't put too much trust on him just yet. If any, his defense in summer league left a lot to be desired. I don't know how Diogu will punish smaller guards, when he is only 6'8" with not so much hop and blocked only .6 in summer league. Also, Diogu can only be able to waste other pf's energy in offense end when he gets the ball a lot of times. The way our team is constructed, he will most likely be the last option in Murphy/Diogu starting line up with occassional feeds in the post.

    At this point, we are fine at offense, desperately need a defense presence, and Diogu is unproven. Once Diogu proves that he can bring more defense presence then Foyle, then we should talk about possible change in line up. But, until then, it's not logical to substitute our only defensive presence for another offense...</div>
    Definitely. These are all points for Mullin/Monty to consider with working with what we got versus trying to improve in the areas we are weakest in. It's a bit hard to be flexible though, when we've got two of the worst contracts in the league and the fact we're sitting on top of a lot of young talent. A future lineup of Biedrins/Diogu doesn't seem half bad if Diogu is productive as Murphy and has other intangibles.

    I still think Diogu could be a decent weakside shotblocker. The problem is it's hard to trust and rely on summer league stats other than the figures for scoring. I saw Diogu had a couple of plays where he sent away a shot and they didn't count it on the stat columns. The record keepers were blowing some assists as well since I remember guys like Andray Blatche we're making plays happen. Also, the refs-in-training were calling fouls left and right, so they didn't count a lot of stuff right when they stopped a play that ordinarily would have been a no-call. The problem is not only are the refs still learning how to officiate as a team and get in shape, they're trying to prevent injuries due to overly rough play. Jason Givony of Draft City also saw the same problem when it came to certain stats at the end of the game. We will see, though. I'm pumped we finally have inside presence. I would have settled for Marcus Fizer or anything to get some 47-48% or above fg% in-the-paint post action.
     
  13. REREM

    REREM JBB JustBBall Member

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    Diogu was a real effective defender in college. It will take some time to adjust that to the NBA. Nba refs love to whistle rookies. A big point is that Ike sees D as important. There are a lot of guys in the league who don't.

    Foyle will still play a lot of minutes at C. It's just that Ike may give us better D at PF than Murph-but Murphy's rebounds and scoring are important-so if the opponent's PF is a bigger threat than their C,the Ike/Murph combo makes sense.

    Who starts is one thing,but what matters most is how much action various combinations get
     
  14. Custodianrules2

    Custodianrules2 Cohan + Rowell = Suck

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting REREM:</div><div class="quote_post">Diogu was a real effective defender in college. It will take some time to adjust that to the NBA. Nba refs love to whistle rookies. A big point is that Ike sees D as important. There are a lot of guys in the league who don't.

    Foyle will still play a lot of minutes at C. It's just that Ike may give us better D at PF than Murph-but Murphy's rebounds and scoring are important-so if the opponent's PF is a bigger threat than their C,the Ike/Murph combo makes sense.

    Who starts is one thing,but what matters most is how much action various combinations get</div>
    Right, the substituting patterns, player minutes and the matchups are more important than who starts (although players have their egos...). [​IMG]

    Good thing we have Montgomery coaching us this year to manage player minutes and substitute in the right players. [​IMG]
     
  15. Mister Jennings

    Mister Jennings JBB JustBBall Member

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    If Foyle doesn't start we will get dunked on all day long, and that doesn't set a good tone for the start of a game. I love Foyle and Fish, sure their contracts are a bit on the highside, but that was market value. People bagged on us for signing Foyle instead of Damp, but who would you rather have? An injury prone malcontent who was playing for a big contract or Foyle? We have no albatross contracts right now, with pretty much everybody being a tradeable asset (not saying I want to trade anyone).

    I was pretty bummed last year when Foyle started off in Monty's doghouse, I loved Cliffy's toughness but nobody was afraid to take it to the rack, and as the season progressed Monty found out what exactly Foyle brings to the table (shot blocking, hustle, rebounds, picks) and what he doesn't (viable scoring option outside of 2 feet, good outlet passes)
     
  16. openglfx

    openglfx JBB JustBBall Member

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    For those who think Murhpy should start over Foyle at C, I guess you guys haven't watched enought W's games to see how effective Foyle is at being a presence in the paint. I've watched Murphy play C before, and most of the time he gets torched left and right, hardly ever even contesting a shot or even be able to block it. Insert Foyle, and you'll notice the opposing team will think twice about trying to score in the paint. If Foyle were a few inches taller he'd probably be the best shot blocker in the league. His offense isn't half bad either. Atleast he is unselfish and gives 110% all the time when he's on the floor. I know Murphy is a viable option to play C, but I rather have him start at PF simply because he is somewhat undersized and underweight. Last year we've seen him get blocked many times, and had no vertical lift. Lets hope this year he recovers and can be mobile. He'll be a great offensive threat because he can score inside and out.
     
  17. Warriorfansnc93

    Warriorfansnc93 JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting openglfx:</div><div class="quote_post">For those who think Murhpy should start over Foyle at C, I guess you guys haven't watched enought W's games to see how effective Foyle is at being a presence in the paint. I've watched Murphy play C before, and most of the time he gets torched left and right, hardly ever even contesting a shot or even be able to block it. Insert Foyle, and you'll notice the opposing team will think twice about trying to score in the paint. If Foyle were a few inches taller he'd probably be the best shot blocker in the league. His offense isn't half bad either. Atleast he is unselfish and gives 110% all the time when he's on the floor. I know Murphy is a viable option to play C, but I rather have him start at PF simply because he is somewhat undersized and underweight. Last year we've seen him get blocked many times, and had no vertical lift. Lets hope this year he recovers and can be mobile. He'll be a great offensive threat because he can score inside and out.</div>

    I think the thing is that people are so excited to see if we have an Elton Brand type player in Diogu that they are willing to start him at PF over Murphy. But since Murphy is better offensively than Foyle and would compliment Diogu's low post game better than Foyle by not clogging the middle, they think this is the logical choice. I say this IF Diogu pans out the way we hope or at least is capable of putting up Murphy's stats 15/11 by playing solely down low, then we need to do something about Murphy or Foyle. We also have a few other guys who can play down low like Biedrens and possibly Taft.
     
  18. Custodianrules2

    Custodianrules2 Cohan + Rowell = Suck

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    WFS93, openglfx, Mister jennings, those are all good points. I guess maybe in the end, it doesn't matter who starts because it all depends on which players match up with who. We may end up shuffling the lineup after the tip-off because of problems we might have defending small forwards and other power forwards (Just remember which positions had career nights against us. I get as frustrated as J-Rich did when he was complaining about the career highs against us even though he ain't the best defender himself).

    Also the other thing is we don't have to rush Diogu into it right away and damage his confidence like Dunleavy if he's picking up quick fouls or playing poorly. We also don't want to make Foyle or Murphy an expensive backup (versus the technical label of overpaid, marginal starter since these guys seem like backup players or starters on a mediocre team). But, I still hope Ike gets plenty of minutes. Hopefully he will be like the best qualities of Carlos Boozer, Zach Randolph and Elton Brand. Those guys are all good scorers, rebounders with some good technique and they are players that are really 6'8 or under.

    I think probably leave Diogu on the bench for now. We need more of the halfcourt game from him since our starting squad is more of a running team that Dunleavy and Murphy can rely upon to create offense for themselves (Murph can outrun a lot of forwards just by outhustling them and Dunleavy is good in transition with the ball or initating the break - good rebounders too).

    Baron is better in the open court whereas Fisher can be best utilized when he's got Pietrus to dribble penetrate and Ike/Biedrins to work down low. Zarko can also play in the half set since he can do the pick and roll and pass from the top of the key like a Toni Kukoc. It should be interesting to see if Zarko can pull off playing small forward. Usually he plays center or power forward, but that's because we didn't have any big men last season since we traded them all for forwards.
     
  19. Warriorfansnc93

    Warriorfansnc93 JBB JustBBall Member

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    I think we have to play Diogu to see what he is worth. In fact, he should show his worth during practice. If he is holding his own, he should get minutes in the first game of the season. If he produces in those minutes, then he needs more minutes until we find a good range for him to play or start him. I am confident he will provide an immediate impact...
     
  20. mylie10

    mylie10 JBB JustBBall Member

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    I'll make a prediction right now!

    Foyle will start the season at center. (most will agree)

    Diogu will after the first month, start taking Foyle's minutes away. Diogu is a monster. Once the coaching staff and us W's fans see him in real game situations, with streaks of dominance, they'll realize the need for him to get starter minutes. He will provide what this team has been lacking since Webber.

    I do like Foyle and agree that he provides us with many things we need. So those of you who say I'm hating on Foyle are wrong. Foyle will guard certain guys. Foyle's the only player on the team who can even guard Shaq. Biedrins is a ways away from being a starting center, so the need for Foyle will be here.

    What alot of us have a problem with is the contracts of Fisher and Foyle. I like what both of them bring to our team, it makes us very deep. I'm just looking ahead to what starting lineup will be the best long term.

    I totally disagree with Kwan. Kwan seems to be hung up on Ike's couple of summer league games. How can you make any kind of judgement on a player after six games. Kwan never mentions the 37 point, 12 rebound game! Whens the last time ANY Warrior big man scored 37 point in any game? answer Jamison, not your prototypical big man, more of a small forward.

    Ike does not need, and will not be babied, or brought along slowly. The only problem he might have is where Monty wants him on the floor at all times. this seems to be Monty's pet peeve. Just ask Foyle and Pietrus.

    I like our whole team, with all of the players we have. We're extremely versatile, alowwing us to use many different lineups. My biggest fear is Baron getting hurt (duh! no ess!).

    If I could do anything to improve our already great roster, I'd go after Brevin Knight to back up Diddy just in case.
     

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