Billups Proves He, Not Nash, is MVP

Discussion in 'Detroit Pistons' started by Shapecity, Apr 3, 2006.

  1. Shapecity

    Shapecity S2/JBB Teamster Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2003
    Messages:
    45,018
    Likes Received:
    57
    Trophy Points:
    48
    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">AUBURN HILLS -- Say what you wish about the Pistons and their occasional slow starts. They might not always set their internal clocks correctly, but the fellas do know when it's really time to show up.

    Rasheed Wallace arrived late Sunday, which would be a dangerous story on a less-cohesive team. It was rendered moot when Chauncey Billups took over right on time, right on cue, right on point.

    We know, we know. The Pistons aren't driven by individual awards or mini-milestones. But when they play with a purpose -- pick a purpose, any purpose -- they're an unbelievable sight, pushed by a leader who knows all about timing.

    MVP! MVP!

    As the Pistons finished stuffing Phoenix, 109-102, Sunday at The Palace, the crowd chanted "MVP! MVP!" for Billups, who earned every throaty syllable. The man was amazing on a day when things could have turned sour, and if anyone thought he was slipping out of MVP contention, think again.

    Billups scored 28 of his 35 points in the second half, when the Pistons wiped out a 63-49 deficit and stymied the reigning MVP, Steve Nash.

    Billups hit three-pointers (5-for-7), fired perfect passes to cutting teammates, and as usual, sweat profusely. That glistening bald head is becoming the NBA's symbol of crunch-time dominance.

    Sure, we've seen it before. The rest of the nation has seen it before too, when Billups was NBA Finals MVP in 2004.

    But there is a difference between seeing and appreciating, and you wonder if people appreciate Billups' complete game enough. He should have a legitimate shot at unseating Nash as MVP, and we'd even call him the leading candidate if we really believed NBA observers embraced all-around basketball as much as we do here.

    Nash was fine, with 13 points and nine assists. Fatigue was a factor for the road-weary Suns, and one game should never settle anything. But even Billups, who hates talk of MVP duels, had to admit he made a compelling argument for himself.

    "When the game is tight, it doesn't matter who's on the other side, everybody knows my mind-set is to be aggressive," Billups said. "We were losing by 14, and for us to come back and me to get going, I think I made a good case for it. (MVP) would mean a lot, although not as much as a championship. It means a lot already, just to have my name thrown around in the mix."

    It's unseemly to campaign and Billups won't do it, but someone should. LeBron James is terrific but it's not his time. Kobe Bryant is dazzling but not winning a ton. Dallas' Dirk Nowitzki is similar to Nash -- appreciated as much for his unique ability as his overall ability.</div>

    Source
     
  2. hustler

    hustler Revving up the Engine

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2005
    Messages:
    2,509
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Billups >Nash, at least from what i've seen this season.
     
  3. Fitch4Delk00

    Fitch4Delk00 JBB JustBBall Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2006
    Messages:
    385
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I think billups deserves it but with all the team changes that phoenix went through there gonna give it to nash. Its easier 4 nash to get those numbers in a fast based game, while billups does it at a slowed downed based. I hope this comes into play when they do the voting.
     
  4. The One & Only

    The One & Only JBB The Orlando Tragic

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2006
    Messages:
    1,842
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting fitch4delk00:</div><div class="quote_post">I think billups deserves it but with all the team changes that phoenix went through there gonna give it to nash. Its easier 4 nash to get those numbers in a fast based game, while billups does it at a slowed downed based. I hope this comes into play when they do the voting.</div>

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Billups >Nash, at least from what i've seen this season.</div>

    Both are good points, but I still hold true to saying Kobe should win it.
     
  5. NTC

    NTC Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2004
    Messages:
    3,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Nash = 19.2ppg, 4.2rpg, 10.4apg
    Billups = 19.0ppg, 3.2rpg, 8.7apg

    If you think Nash deserves the award, then Chauncey should definatley win it, as shown above, he is averaging basically the same numbers, is doing the same job as what Nash does for Phoenix and is leading the best team in the league to their best ever season, all of which secured the title for Nash last season.
     
  6. 02civic

    02civic JBB JustBBall Rookie Team

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Messages:
    1,213
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">Nash = 19.2ppg, 4.2rpg, 10.4apg
    Billups = 19.0ppg, 3.2rpg, 8.7apg

    If you think Nash deserves the award, then Chauncey should definatley win it, as shown above, he is averaging basically the same numbers, is doing the same job as what Nash does for Phoenix and is leading the best team in the league to their best ever season, all of which secured the title for Nash last season.</div>

    Billups has less ppg, rpg and apg.
    Billups is shooting 41% from the field to Nash's 51%
    Nash is playing just over a minute less per game

    Billups has the better team...3 other all stars.
    Nash has Marion, a 6'8 former PG playing the center spot, and a team with alot of new faces

    Only thing billups has going for him in my mind is the fact that he's a better man on man defender...although their steals and blocks are dead close.


    If Billups wins the MVP I'll be totally suprised and very dissapointed. I'd rather see Nash, Dirk or even Kobe win it...and i'm not the hugest Kobe fan.
     
  7. NTC

    NTC Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2004
    Messages:
    3,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    - Are you kidding me? He averages 0.2ppg, 1.0rpg, 2.7rpg more than Billups. And thats considering "Billups has the better team".

    - Kobe shoots 44% from the field, So what? The M.V.P isnt based on how well you shoot from the field, so that has no real relevence.

    - Again, so what, playing 60 seconds less earns him M.V.P honors?

    - lol, because Rip, Sheed & Ben were all picked for the All Star game means they're better players? Dale Davis was an Allstar once, does that mean he is better than Carmello Anthony? Not to mention Nash, Marion and Stoudemire have all made all star teams themselves.

    - Billups has 3 guys "that didnt deserve to be on the all star team" and "a team with one of the worst benches in the league". Not to mention Billups has alot of new faces around him too, Amir Johnson, Jason Maxiell, Kelvin Cato, Tony Delk, Alex Acker and Maurice Evans are all new to the Pistons in 05/06.

    Not to mention Billups outplayed Nash in both contests this season and is leading the leagues best team to their best season on record, the exact thing Nash did last season with the Suns, and he won the award, so why not Billups this season?
     
  8. 02civic

    02civic JBB JustBBall Rookie Team

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Messages:
    1,213
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">- Are you kidding me? He averages 0.2ppg, 1.0rpg, 2.7rpg more than Billups. And thats considering "Billups has the better team".

    - Kobe shoots 44% from the field, So what? The M.V.P isnt based on how well you shoot from the field, so that has no real relevence.

    - Again, so what, playing 60 seconds less earns him M.V.P honors?

    - lol, because Rip, Sheed & Ben were all picked for the All Star game means they're better players? Dale Davis was an Allstar once, does that mean he is better than Carmello Anthony? Not to mention Nash, Marion and Stoudemire have all made all star teams themselves.

    - Billups has 3 guys "that didnt deserve to be on the all star team" and "a team with one of the worst benches in the league". Not to mention Billups has alot of new faces around him too, Amir Johnson, Jason Maxiell, Kelvin Cato, Tony Delk, Alex Acker and Maurice Evans are all new to the Pistons in 05/06.

    Not to mention Billups outplayed Nash in both contests this season and is leading the leagues best team to their best season on record, the exact thing Nash did last season with the Suns, and he won the award, so why not Billups this season?</div>


    -I dont know i think 2.7 assist per game is certainly notable dont you? Nash is #1 in assists, Chauncey #4. The other 2 players (baron davis, brevin Knight) are both in the high 8's. Certainly not worthy.

    The MVP isnt based on how well you shoot. But effeciency is very important in basketball games so you have to look at the %'s. Nash shooting the ball 10% better than Billups is certainly notable. It doesnt win him the MVP vote but it helps.

    You're not getting it man....you posted some stats in this thread stating that Nash and Billups were equal..which I pointed out isnt true. When looking at stats you HAVE to look at minutes played. Its that effeciency thing again, but you dont seem to get that.

    I wont even go into how stupid you look for "Dale Davis was an Allstar once, does that mean he is better than Carmello Anthony?". I'll just go around it. My mentioning that Nash has had a tougher go of things than the Pistons is relevant because

    1) the pistons team is largely unchanged since a few years ago..Billups has had time to get to know his players, his role, what the team needs and doesnt need and where/when his players want to receive the ball. Nash has alot of new faces that play LARGE roles in how the team does, Bell and Diaw being the more significant of them. So Nash has had to do a bit more learning on the fly in terms of what those players want/need/bring.

    2)My mentioning that the Pistons have 3 other allstars beside Billups is also relevant. I dont know what you mean by 3 underserving allstars, thats an opinion some might have but its only an opinion. FACT Billups is playing with 3 of what the coaches feel to be the best players in the eastern conference.
    Nash has Marion and a 6'3 center. You mention Amare...WHY? has he played this year? Do you watch/know/pay attention at all to basketball? lol

    3)Oh and the new faces that you mentioned Billups having to play with? They combine for 21 minutes per game playing time. Only Cato playes significant minutes at 12mpg. The other ones often dont play in the same game, between the 3 of them they've seen minutes in 27 contests. (max=22, amir=1 and acker=3) [​IMG]
    Nash has played with Diaw and Bell both 35mpg players, TT who's playing 21mpg, James Jones 23.3mpg, Brian Grant 10mpg, House 17.3mpg, KT 26.6mpg, and then the throw in rookies and 10 day contract guys equal to the guys you mentioned (acker, Amir)

    Give me a break please...Nash has had to deal with alot more than Billups in terms of playing with new faces and with those faces playing in roles they dont usually play.

    The difference is that the suns werent expected to be that good last year, the pistons were expected to do this or at least near this. The "best player" on the "best team" doesnt always get the award. What about 2 years back when the Pacers had the great record...i didnt hear anyone say Artest or Jermaine O'neal were the MVP's, even though Artest felt he deserved it no one gave them a thought.

    Regardless....i think Nash deserves it this year simply because their arent any true candidates. Last year Shaq deserved it.
     
  9. hustler

    hustler Revving up the Engine

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2005
    Messages:
    2,509
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Kobe for MVP? I'm not even gonna go there.
     
  10. Fitch4Delk00

    Fitch4Delk00 JBB JustBBall Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2006
    Messages:
    385
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">Billups has less ppg, rpg and apg.
    Billups is shooting 41% from the field to Nash's 51%
    Nash is playing just over a minute less per game

    Billups has the better team...3 other all stars.
    Nash has Marion, a 6'3 former PG playing the center spot, and a team with alot of new faces

    Only thing billups has going for him in my mind is the fact that he's a better man on man defender...although their steals and blocks are dead close.


    If Billups wins the MVP I'll be totally suprised and very dissapointed. I'd rather see Nash, Dirk or even Kobe win it...and i'm not the hugest Kobe fan.</div>

    what u fail to c is there playing style it is easy for nash to get his stats bloated out at an uptempo pace, while billups plays a slow down offense. If billups was on the suns his stats would be the same if not better, you can c alot of players on that team that are nobodys but at the style they play im sure they can get open rebounds and open shots.
     
  11. 02civic

    02civic JBB JustBBall Rookie Team

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Messages:
    1,213
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    the uptempo style does give Nash more possibilities to increase his stats but who knows really. Even adjusting the stats to tempo of game their stats would be similiar except for Nash is shooting the ball 10% better, and making a very good team with Marion being the only other top 50 player on the team.

    Their both solid players but Nash has less to work with by a good degree, so i'd give him the nod over Billups any day of the week.
     
  12. NTC

    NTC Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2004
    Messages:
    3,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">-I dont know i think 2.7 assist per game is certainly notable dont you? Nash is #1 in assists, Chauncey #4. The other 2 players (baron davis, brevin Knight) are both in the high 8's. Certainly not worthy.

    The MVP isnt based on how well you shoot. But effeciency is very important in basketball games so you have to look at the %'s. Nash shooting the ball 10% better than Billups is certainly notable. It doesnt win him the MVP vote but it helps.

    You're not getting it man....you posted some stats in this thread stating that Nash and Billups were equal..which I pointed out isnt true. When looking at stats you HAVE to look at minutes played. Its that effeciency thing again, but you dont seem to get that.

    I wont even go into how stupid you look for "Dale Davis was an Allstar once, does that mean he is better than Carmello Anthony?". I'll just go around it. My mentioning that Nash has had a tougher go of things than the Pistons is relevant because

    1) the pistons team is largely unchanged since a few years ago..Billups has had time to get to know his players, his role, what the team needs and doesnt need and where/when his players want to receive the ball. Nash has alot of new faces that play LARGE roles in how the team does, Bell and Diaw being the more significant of them. So Nash has had to do a bit more learning on the fly in terms of what those players want/need/bring.

    2)My mentioning that the Pistons have 3 other allstars beside Billups is also relevant. I dont know what you mean by 3 underserving allstars, thats an opinion some might have but its only an opinion. FACT Billups is playing with 3 of what the coaches feel to be the best players in the eastern conference.
    Nash has Marion and a 6'3 center. You mention Amare...WHY? has he played this year? Do you watch/know/pay attention at all to basketball? lol

    3)Oh and the new faces that you mentioned Billups having to play with? They combine for 21 minutes per game playing time. Only Cato playes significant minutes at 12mpg. The other ones often dont play in the same game, between the 3 of them they've seen minutes in 27 contests. (max=22, amir=1 and acker=3) [​IMG]
    Nash has played with Diaw and Bell both 35mpg players, TT who's playing 21mpg, James Jones 23.3mpg, Brian Grant 10mpg, House 17.3mpg, KT 26.6mpg, and then the throw in rookies and 10 day contract guys equal to the guys you mentioned (acker, Amir)

    Give me a break please...Nash has had to deal with alot more than Billups in terms of playing with new faces and with those faces playing in roles they dont usually play.

    The difference is that the suns werent expected to be that good last year, the pistons were expected to do this or at least near this. The "best player" on the "best team" doesnt always get the award. What about 2 years back when the Pacers had the great record...i didnt hear anyone say Artest or Jermaine O'neal were the MVP's, even though Artest felt he deserved it no one gave them a thought.

    Regardless....i think Nash deserves it this year simply because their arent any true candidates. Last year Shaq deserved it.</div>

    - lol. Baron has played 59 games, he has a total of 480 assists. Brevin Knight has played 69 games and has 610 assists. Chauncey has played 77 games and has 668 assists, more than either of those 2, so theres no point there.

    - Well then Kobe isnt in the running for MVP either then apparentley, since Nash is shooting 7% better than him. Flawed argument.

    - I said they had very similar numbers, and they do. You for some reason think 0.2, 1.0 and 2.7 are massive differences, they are not.

    - You brought up the all star thing, not me. You were stating that since Rip, Ben & Sheed were allstars that Billups had some sort of advantage, I was simply pointing out that just because you make the all stat team doesnt mean you're good (with the Carmello/Davis comparisson). It is a popularity contest after all.

    - The Pistons team has changed very much, I proved this, so dont try and elude it. There were 5-6 new players to the team this season, Nash had about the same.

    - It is not relevant at all, as I said above, the all star game is nothing more than a popularity contest. 100's of un deserving players have made the all star team over the years. Almost everyone was saying before the All star game that Detroit did not deserve 4 players in the All Star game. Also you talk about opinion, is it not the coaches opinion on who <u>they</u> think is the best? Oh yeah, and Boris Diaw is 6'8, not 6'3, the same height as Elton Brand.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3724

    - lol, now I'm convinced you have no idea what you're talking about, considering Kelvin Cato played his first game for us 2 days ago, lol. Also I dont know where you're getting your stats, considering McDyess & Delk <u>alone</u> combine for 35mpg on the season. lol, and you claim I havent watched or paid attention this season.

    - So because Nash has a few incompitant people around him earns him an MVP award? Give me a break. As I showed above, Billups has had to play with just as many new faces as Nash has, so drop that argument already.

    - Of course Phoenix wasnt expected to do well last season, they were coming off 29-53 season the year before. Meanwhile the Pistons have notched 50+ wins every season over the last 5 years, which included a championship and 2 finals appearances. Not to mention that all came/has come since the very year we acquired Billups, we were 32-50 the season before we aquired him. What so since Artest thought he deserved MVP, he should of got it? LOL. Calvin Booth probally thinks he deserves the MVP award, should we give it to him?

    You're logic makes no sense at all.
     
  13. 02civic

    02civic JBB JustBBall Rookie Team

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Messages:
    1,213
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">- lol. Baron has played 59 games, he has a total of 480 assists. Brevin Knight has played 69 games and has 610 assists. Chauncey has played 77 games and has 668 assists, more than either of those 2, so theres no point there.</div>

    lol. we were talking about assists per game here pal. Baron and Brevin have both had injury troubles which is why they've played less games. I really dont know what you think you're point is with this line...maybe you're saying Chauncey is a a more skilled assist man becuase he plays more games? Please...explain you're lunacy here.


    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">
    - Well then Kobe isnt in the running for MVP either then apparentley, since Nash is shooting 7% better than him. Flawed argument.</div>

    You're moronic apparently. FG% is not the be all and end all but when you're trying (and for you i really mean trying) to have an debate on the issue you need to examine all the facts possible. FG% isnt all the MVP is about...but it certainly is looked at. You wont see any MVP's shooting 31% from the field will you?
    Here's how an intellectual conversation goes. You say what Billups has going for him in his pursuit of the MVP award...then i list what Nash has going for him. Nash's 10% better shooting % is just one thing, its worth mentioning. By the sounds of it you're a chucker when you play ball...that is if you've ever played. Effeciency...try to remember it.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">
    - I said they had very similar numbers, and they do. You for some reason think 0.2, 1.0 and 2.7 are massive differences, they are not.</div>

    .2 and 1.0 are not important i agree..however i feel 2.7 is important. The assist per game difference between Billups and Nash is equal the the difference between Mike James and Billups. Mike James is often critizised for not involving his team mates enough. There's less than a 2.7 assist per game average between Billups and Marbury, a with a strong selfish/chucker lable attached to him. You seriously dont think that 2.7 apg is note worthy?
    2.7 apg is 31% of the apg Billups currently has....you dont think 31% is a big chunk?

    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">
    - You brought up the all star thing, not me. You were stating that since Rip, Ben & Sheed were allstars that Billups had some sort of advantage, I was simply pointing out that just because you make the all stat team doesnt mean you're good (with the Carmello/Davis comparisson). It is a popularity contest after all.</div>

    1) i brought up the many advantages that Billups has when it comes to a team vs team comparison. Yes one of them was that Detroit has overall "better" players, 4 allstars in the game including Chauncey. When a very good player like Billups is playing with 3 other very good players its alot easier offensively and defensively. The reasons why on offense should be obvious, on defense not so much...i'll explain for you. Chauncey has a much better defensive team backing him up, and while i do believe Chauncey is a better overall defender (than Nash) he's given some extra help in the fact that his mistakes and defensive weaknesses are covered up by the excellent help defence that Detroit provides.
    2) "just becuase you make the allstar team doesnt mean you're good". Can you please tell me of a player that has made the allstar team that isnt good?

    3) When Dale Davis made the allstar team Dale Davis was pretty good. He was averaging 10 and 10 shooting 50% and was playing some solid defence. While the numbers arent staggering he was one of the top players in his position that year on the eastern conference side. So that would be the measuring stick to what "good" is. Dale Davis NOW though is 6 years removed from that allstar game..he's old and not that "good" any more, but that doesnt mean he wasnt at one point. I fail to see you're point.

    4) Actually the coaches decide you makes the allstar reserves lineup. You could say that the starting lineup is a popularity contest...but the reserves, while still sort of, is much more about talent and about what player deserve the spot.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">
    - The Pistons team has changed very much, I proved this, so dont try and elude it. There were 5-6 new players to the team this season, Nash had about the same. </div>



    AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    lol
    ok i'm done.
    Look you named 3 players, Amir Johson, Alex Acker and Jason Maxiell..like i said..Amir only played 4 minutes in 1 game, Acker played like 1.3 minutes per game in 3 games, maxiell has played 3.9 mpg in 22 games. The players you didnt mention, Cato has played 5mpg in 1 game and Delk 14.9 over 19 games. Maurice Evans is biggest deal at 14 minutes per game over 76 games.
    So ya some changes there, some new players to learn and adapt too...but only Evans has played in a significant # of games and none of them are playing a large # of minutes.
    For Nash's side, both Boris Diaw and Raja Bell have started 75 games and both are playing 35+ minutes per game. That alone is a bigger deal than the new players Billups has had to deal with. Add to that Kurt Thomas who played 56 games, 50 of them in the starting lineup with 26mpg, James Jones who's played 69 games starting in 23 of those, and averaging 20+mpg. Eddie House, Tim Thomas are also new faces who play 17-22 mpg. Nash has had to adjust this season to playing without Amare.

    And you're saying they've had <u>equally</u> hard situations and having to adjust to new players in new roles? I'm sorry..no where close. Billups has had the same key players for years and those key players have been largely injury free, with Prince Billups Sheed Hamilton and Ben playing in 76-77 games, all of them starting.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">
    - It is not relevant at all, as I said above, the all star game is nothing more than a popularity contest. 100's of un deserving players have made the all star team over the years. Almost everyone was saying before the All star game that Detroit did not deserve 4 players in the All Star game. Also you talk about opinion, is it not the coaches opinion on who <u>they</u> think is the best? Oh yeah, and Boris Diaw is 6'8, not 6'3, the same height as Elton Brand. </div>

    I have a picture of me and my girl standing beside Diaw i know his height..I'm not sure why i put 6'3, but thats not important, typo's like this and the Cato thing happen. You're right though he the same listed height of Elton Brand....................but 39 pounds lighter.
    You dont think its relevant in talking about MVP honors to mention the skill level of the rest of the team that these players play for? Ok thats your opinion....i however think there's more to the game than that what you apparently think there is. Billups faces less defensive pressure than Nash does becuase of the composition of his team. Billups also has some of his defensive lapses covered up by his teams solid help defence, Nash's errors are mostly converted into 2 or 3 points because of the Suns weak defense.
    Coaches do decide who gets to be on the allstar team, and errors are made. I personally feel that Arenas should of gotten Hamiltons spot with Hamilton coming in as the alternate. And i think Sheed shouldnt of been on the team it should of been Dwight Howard. But the coaches disagreed. Regardless of opinions, the Pistons had 4 solid allstar candidates. The Suns had Marion and Nash...i never heard anyone lobbying for Diaw or Bell to the allstar team.
    There's a reason why people say that Detroit has the best starting lineup in basketball.





    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">
    - lol, now I'm convinced you have no idea what you're talking about, considering Kelvin Cato played his first game for us 2 days ago, lol. Also I dont know where you're getting your stats, considering McDyess & Delk <u>alone</u> combine for 35mpg on the season. lol, and you claim I havent watched or paid attention this season.</div>



    lol i do claim that.
    Sorry to break it to you pall but McDyess played for you guys last year [​IMG]
    And also Delk has only been with you guys for 19 games.

    As far as Cato goes i was looking at his Orlando number accidently....which actually further hurts your claim that Billups has had as many new faces in important roles.

    Way to make me look silly....you really got me with that McDyess thing...... [​IMG]

    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">
    - So because Nash has a few incompitant people around him earns him an MVP award? Give me a break. As I showed above, Billups has had to play with just as many new faces as Nash has, so drop that argument already.</div>

    You havent showed anything of the sort MY GOD MAN!!!!!111!!!!!!!1!!
    And Nash doesnt have "incompitant" people around him..but he's had it a bit tougher than Billups and his very solid starting lineup thats played together since the beginning of time.

    Ok so i'm supposed to drop the arguement because apparently Delk @17 minutes for 19 games is equal to Diaw playing center for 35 minutes for 75 games. And Jason Maxiell playing 4 mpg for 22 games is equal to Bell playing 37 minutes for 75 games, and KT playing 56 games at 27 minutes....my god i refuse to write it all down again.. i'll simply say you're like a brick wall only bricks can read better.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">
    - Of course Phoenix wasnt expected to do well last season, they were coming off 29-53 season the year before. Meanwhile the Pistons have notched 50+ wins every season over the last 5 years, which included a championship and 2 finals appearances. Not to mention that all came/has come since the very year we acquired Billups, we were 32-50 the season before we aquired him. What so since Artest thought he deserved MVP, he should of got it? LOL. Calvin Booth probally thinks he deserves the MVP award, should we give it to him? </div>

    You're logic astounds me.

    You say that Billups is the leader of the best team so he deserves it.
    I counter saying that when the Pacers were the best team JO or Artest didnt win it. A fact Artest tried to cry for.
    You counter saying that he shouldnt of won it just becuase he wanted it, but apparently not going with your "leader of the best team should win" reasoning.


    oooooooo k

    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">
    You're logic makes no sense at all.</div>


    Well i just pointed you on your way to school...maybe you'll learn about logic more there.
     
  14. hustler

    hustler Revving up the Engine

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2005
    Messages:
    2,509
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If Billups wins the MVP I'll be totally suprised and very dissapointed. I'd rather see Nash, Dirk or even Kobe win it...and i'm not the hugest Kobe fan.</div>
    This hurts me to hear that Kobe deserves it over Billups, i'm heart shattered.
     
  15. NTC

    NTC Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2004
    Messages:
    3,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">lol. we were talking about assists per game here pal. Baron and Brevin have both had injury troubles which is why they've played less games. I really dont know what you think you're point is with this line...maybe you're saying Chauncey is a a more skilled assist man becuase he plays more games? Please...explain you're lunacy here.</div>

    lol. You do understand right, that if you play less games, your averages are usually better than what they are playing all of or 95% of the games in the season.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You're moronic apparently. FG% is not the be all and end all but when you're trying (and for you i really mean trying) to have an debate on the issue you need to examine all the facts possible. FG% isnt all the MVP is about...but it certainly is looked at. You wont see any MVP's shooting 31% from the field will you?

    Here's how an intellectual conversation goes. You say what Billups has going for him in his pursuit of the MVP award...then i list what Nash has going for him. Nash's 10% better shooting % is just one thing, its worth mentioning. By the sounds of it you're a chucker when you play ball...that is if you've ever played. Effeciency...try to remember it.</div>

    I'm moronic am I? I'm not the one claiming how field goal percentage makes an MVP. The judges arnt going to look at the candidates and say "Oh Kobe is only shooting 44% from the field! This is just ludacrous! No way will he be winning the award!". You're right, you wont see any MVP shooting 31% from the floor, because those who do shoot 31% from the floor usually arnt good at all.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">.2 and 1.0 are not important i agree..however i feel 2.7 is important. The assist per game difference between Billups and Nash is equal the the difference between Mike James and Billups. Mike James is often critizised for not involving his team mates enough. There's less than a 2.7 assist per game average between Billups and Marbury, a with a strong selfish/chucker lable attached to him. You seriously dont think that 2.7 apg is note worthy?
    2.7 apg is 31% of the apg Billups currently has....you dont think 31% is a big chunk?</div>

    Here's how an intellectual conversation goes. You say what Nash has going for him in his pursuit of the MVP award... then I list what Billups has going for him. Billups has a 12 game win advantage over Nash, and this is averaging <u>less</u> assists than what Nash does.

    Steve Nash averaged 3.8 assists more than Kevin Garnett did in 2003/2004 (the year Garnett won MVP), should we have given the award to Nash then based solely on that fact alone? No, so the 2.7apg gap has no relevence.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">1) i brought up the many advantages that Billups has when it comes to a team vs team comparison. Yes one of them was that Detroit has overall "better" players, 4 allstars in the game including Chauncey. When a very good player like Billups is playing with 3 other very good players its alot easier offensively and defensively. The reasons why on offense should be obvious, on defense not so much...i'll explain for you. Chauncey has a much better defensive team backing him up, and while i do believe Chauncey is a better overall defender (than Nash) he's given some extra help in the fact that his mistakes and defensive weaknesses are covered up by the excellent help defence that Detroit provides.</div>

    Phoenix has a very good if not just as good a defensive theam than Detroit. Marion, Diaw, K.Thomas, all very good defenders. As for mistakes, Steve Nash averages 3.53 turn overs per game compared to Chauncey Billup's 2.13, I dont see any "masking" at all, the stats dont lie.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">2) "just becuase you make the allstar team doesnt mean you're good". Can you please tell me of a player that has made the allstar team that isnt good?</div>

    Christian Laetnerr, Tom Gugliotta just to name a couple.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">3) When Dale Davis made the allstar team Dale Davis was pretty good. He was averaging 10 and 10 shooting 50% and was playing some solid defence. While the numbers arent staggering he was one of the top players in his position that year on the eastern conference side. So that would be the measuring stick to what "good" is. Dale Davis NOW though is 6 years removed from that allstar game..he's old and not that "good" any more, but that doesnt mean he wasnt at one point. I fail to see you're point.</div>

    I never said he wasnt deserving of that spot either, I was pointing out the fact that better players sometimes miss out on all star spots, such as Gilbert & Carmello this year. You were talking about how just because Chauncey had 3 all stars that some how mde them superior players (well thats how it came across).

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">4) Actually the coaches decide you makes the allstar reserves lineup. You could say that the starting lineup is a popularity contest...but the reserves, while still sort of, is much more about talent and about what player deserve the spot.</div>

    I know that, but it is still a choice based on opinion.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    lol
    ok i'm done.
    Look you named 3 players, Amir Johson, Alex Acker and Jason Maxiell..like i said..Amir only played 4 minutes in 1 game, Acker played like 1.3 minutes per game in 3 games, maxiell has played 3.9 mpg in 22 games. The players you didnt mention, Cato has played 5mpg in 1 game and Delk 14.9 over 19 games. Maurice Evans is biggest deal at 14 minutes per game over 76 games.
    So ya some changes there, some new players to learn and adapt too...but only Evans has played in a significant # of games and none of them are playing a large # of minutes.
    For Nash's side, both Boris Diaw and Raja Bell have started 75 games and both are playing 35+ minutes per game. That alone is a bigger deal than the new players Billups has had to deal with. Add to that Kurt Thomas who played 56 games, 50 of them in the starting lineup with 26mpg, James Jones who's played 69 games starting in 23 of those, and averaging 20+mpg. Eddie House, Tim Thomas are also new faces who play 17-22 mpg. Nash has had to adjust this season to playing without Amare.

    And you're saying they've had equally hard situations and having to adjust to new players in new roles? I'm sorry..no where close. Billups has had the same key players for years and those key players have been largely injury free, with Prince Billups Sheed Hamilton and Ben playing in 76-77 games, all of them starting.</div>

    What so Billups should be punished because his team isnt plauged with injury? I dont get it. I dont care how many minutes those first 3 have played, thats still 3 changes to the lineup, 3 new players you have to study, bond with and learn how to play with them no matter what.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You dont think its relevant in talking about MVP honors to mention the skill level of the rest of the team that these players play for? Ok thats your opinion....i however think there's more to the game than that what you apparently think there is. Billups faces less defensive pressure than Nash does becuase of the composition of his team. Billups also has some of his defensive lapses covered up by his teams solid help defence, Nash's errors are mostly converted into 2 or 3 points because of the Suns weak defense.
    Coaches do decide who gets to be on the allstar team, and errors are made. I personally feel that Arenas should of gotten Hamiltons spot with Hamilton coming in as the alternate. And i think Sheed shouldnt of been on the team it should of been Dwight Howard. But the coaches disagreed. Regardless of opinions, the Pistons had 4 solid allstar candidates. The Suns had Marion and Nash...i never heard anyone lobbying for Diaw or Bell to the allstar team.
    There's a reason why people say that Detroit has the best starting lineup in basketball.</div>

    Well considering the award is for most valuable player, not team, yes the skill level of the rest of them really has no value, otherwise Kobe shouldnt be in the running for the award at all. The rest of what you said in that paragraph I have covered above, so I'm not going over it again.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">lol i do claim that.
    Sorry to break it to you pall but McDyess played for you guys last year
    And also Delk has only been with you guys for 19 games.

    As far as Cato goes i was looking at his Orlando number accidently....which actually further hurts your claim that Billups has had as many new faces in important roles.

    Way to make me look silly....you really got me with that McDyess thing...... </div>

    I mis read your original statement, and for some reason was thinking about Detroits bench in general, so I apologize for that. As you yourself admitted to doing in this topic, we all make mistakes.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You havent showed anything of the sort MY GOD MAN!!!!!111!!!!!!!1!!
    And Nash doesnt have "incompitant" people around him..but he's had it a bit tougher than Billups and his very solid starting lineup thats played together since the beginning of time.

    Ok so i'm supposed to drop the arguement because apparently Delk @17 minutes for 19 games is equal to Diaw playing center for 35 minutes for 75 games. And Jason Maxiell playing 4 mpg for 22 games is equal to Bell playing 37 minutes for 75 games, and KT playing 56 games at 27 minutes....my god i refuse to write it all down again.. i'll simply say you're like a brick wall only bricks can read better.</div>

    lol, I did too, you just didnt want to take any of it into consideration. And according to you, he does have incompitant people around him, you're telling us how bad the rest of Phoenix is and how hard Nash has it. So which one is it?

    Again, it isnt Detroits fault Phoenix cant afford to hire a decent trainer.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You're logic astounds me.

    You say that Billups is the leader of the best team so he deserves it.
    I counter saying that when the Pacers were the best team JO or Artest didnt win it. A fact Artest tried to cry for.
    You counter saying that he shouldnt of won it just becuase he wanted it, but apparently not going with your "leader of the best team should win" reasoning.

    oooooooo k</div>

    What you fail to take into consideration here is everything else we've argued about the rest of this topic, saying Billups deserves it because he is the leader of the best team in the league is just 1 part of the story. Again, everyone in the NBA probally thinks they deserve the award, it doesnt mean we should just give it to them. And the reason why J.O didnt win the award that year was probally becausee KG played alot better than him, and led the T-Wolves to <u>their best ever record/season</u>.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well i just pointed you on your way to school...maybe you'll learn about logic more there.</div>

    lmao, what ever makes you sleep better I guess.
     
  16. 02civic

    02civic JBB JustBBall Rookie Team

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Messages:
    1,213
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">lol. You do understand right, that if you play less games, your averages are usually better than what they are playing all of or 95% of the games in the season. </div>

    And No. Assists per game is the average number of assists PER GAME. I mean if a player is on a hot streak during those games he does play than ya the numbers could be higher...but thats usually only a problem if you're looking at someone with 10-20 games played. B-diddy and Knight have a still somewhat decent number of games played so you could get an average thats about right.

    Regerdless...you do understand right that if a player misses games due to unjury, there's the whole being rusty/slowed down by the injury which limits that player for the next couple of games or whatever....i think if anything Barons and Knights numbers could of been higher.

    Oh and so you know sunshine both players have averaged numbers similiar to this years apg in the past. Knight going for 9apg last year and Baron 8.3 2 years back.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">
    I'm moronic am I? I'm not the one claiming how field goal percentage makes an MVP. The judges arnt going to look at the candidates and say "Oh Kobe is only shooting 44% from the field! This is just ludacrous! No way will he be winning the award!". You're right, you wont see any MVP shooting 31% from the floor, because those who do shoot 31% from the floor usually arnt good at all.</div>

    yes you are.

    How many times did i say, like the apg situation, that when looking for an MVP you need to look at ALL FACETS? How many times did i say that FG% alone isnt going to win it....BUT YOU SHOULD LOOK AT IT!? I'm sorry that you're slow in the head...but Nash shooting 51% compared to Billups 41% is notable, is worthy of recognition. Does it mean Nash is a better point gaurd? like i've said....NO. But it does mean he's a more effecient scorer. Is that not at least somewhat important when deciding an MVP? Oh but nevermind..your method of deciding who the MVP is doesnt include anything to do with stats, its just the "leader of the best team" should get the MVP award.


    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">
    Here's how an intellectual conversation goes. You say what Nash has going for him in his pursuit of the MVP award... then I list what Billups has going for him. Billups has a 12 game win advantage over Nash, and this is averaging <u>less</u> assists than what Nash does. </div>

    lol..wow stop the presses. Just what exactly do you think you're proving with this line?


    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">
    Steve Nash averaged 3.8 assists more than Kevin Garnett did in 2003/2004 (the year Garnett won MVP), should we have given the award to Nash then based solely on that fact alone? No, so the 2.7apg gap has no relevence.</div>

    See the earlier response...you're dumb if you think these things have "no relevence". Everything has relevance when deciding an MVP...everything is looked at. His defence, his effeciency, his leadership, what he's had to deal with over the coarse of the year.



    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">
    Phoenix has a very good if not just as good a defensive theam than Detroit. Marion, Diaw, K.Thomas, all very good defenders. As for mistakes, Steve Nash averages 3.53 turn overs per game compared to Chauncey Billup's 2.13, I dont see any "masking" at all, the stats dont lie.</div>

    So Phoenix defence is "just as good" as Detroits? [​IMG]

    How can you bring up steve nash having mure turnovers by 1.4 per game and then say "stats done lie" and yet thus far you've been of the position that steve shooting 10% better from the feild and averaging 31% more assists per game mean nothing because "no one's going to give an award out based only on FG% or assists".

    lol

    Seriously though, Billups effeciency with the ball is something to look at when comparing the two. I'm not going to pull your weak ass "its not relevant". I'd like to see the numbers that break down the % of game the ball is in those 2 players hands. Perhaps Nash's numbers are inflated becuase he handles the ball more...much like why Kobe's T.O's are a bit inflated.


    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">
    Christian Laetnerr, Tom Gugliotta just to name a couple.</div>

    Leatnerr was averaging 18.1 ppg and 8.8 rpg shooting 48% from the feild. Those numbers are pretty decent i'd say.

    Tom Gugliotta was averaging 20.6 and 8.7 rpg in his allstar year.


    You're telling me that those arent good numbers?


    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">
    I never said he wasnt deserving of that spot either, I was pointing out the fact that better players sometimes miss out on all star spots, such as Gilbert & Carmello this year. You were talking about how just because Chauncey had 3 all stars that some how mde them superior players (well thats how it came across).</div>

    Thats exactly what i was saying and i still say it. Even if you argue that other players should of gone in the Pistons place...the Pistons players were still comparable, they were still allstar considerations. The coaches of the east feel that 4 of the Pistons players were among the top east players in their positions. The coaches of the west only felt that way about 1 of Nash's teammates. Marion. That does mean something. Raja Bell and Diaw are having career years thanks in part to Nash, but even with thier good years they werent even whispered about as being allstars, as being among the top players in the league.


    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">
    I know that, but it is still a choice based on opinion.</div>

    Yes, the opinion of proffessional coaches with years upon years of experience. I'll take that opinion over yours any day of the week.


    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">
    What so Billups should be punished because his team isnt plauged with injury? I dont get it. I dont care how many minutes those first 3 have played, thats still 3 changes to the lineup, 3 new players you have to study, bond with and learn how to play with them no matter what.</div>


    lol, you cant handle numbers can you?
    Ok becuase you cant handle it we'll join you in your little imagination world and pretend that Billups has it just as hard as Nash has this year. I mean who cares if Nash only has 1 other starting linup member back from last year, the Pistons have Alex Acker and Amir Johnson for those 4 games. [​IMG]


    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">
    Well considering the award is for most valuable player, not team, yes the skill level of the rest of them really has no value, otherwise Kobe shouldnt be in the running for the award at all. The rest of what you said in that paragraph I have covered above, so I'm not going over it again.</div>

    team skill does matter, especially when you're trying to say that becuase they are the best team they should get the MVP award. Try to be consistent here son.

    Anyways when looking for the MVP you have to look for a player thats lead his team to being successful. Kobe Bryant for example has a team of scrubs and he's tied for the 7th seed. That means something. I'm sorry but just because Detroit is the best team doesnt mean that one of thier players has to be the MVP. They are the best team because they have the best starting lineup in the NBA, solid role players off the bench and a great system/coach....not because they have Billups.




    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">
    lol, I did too, you just didnt want to take any of it into consideration. And according to you, he does have incompitant people around him, you're telling us how bad the rest of Phoenix is and how hard Nash has it. So which one is it?

    Again, it isnt Detroits fault Phoenix cant afford to hire a decent trainer.</div>

    lol. I'm not saying he has scrubs around him...never did actually. What i'm saying though is that he isnt blessed like Billups is...he hasnt had the same starting lineup for years, with all of them playing in 76-77 games this season. So he's had to learn some new players in new roles on the fly..in games.


    The trainer comment is stupid...sometimes teams get unlucky..its not always the trainers fault. This year they've had injuries to Kurt Thomas and Amare which is tough...but not the trainers fault. Them trading Joe Johnson and Q. Rich in the offseason made it necessary for Nash to be paired with 2 new players he's never played with before. Does that not take time to get accustomed to?


    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">
    What you fail to take into consideration here is everything else we've argued about the rest of this topic, saying Billups deserves it because he is the leader of the best team in the league is just 1 part of the story. Again, everyone in the NBA probally thinks they deserve the award, it doesnt mean we should just give it to them. And the reason why J.O didnt win the award that year was probally becausee KG played alot better than him, and led the T-Wolves to <u>their best ever record/season</u>. </div>

    oh no, you cant say its just "one part of the story". You've already attempted to be smart saying that Nash's assists wont give him MVP honors alone so the fact he does get more apg should be dismissed. Then immediately after how Nash's more effecient scoring wont give him MVP honors alone so the fact he does score at a 10% better clip should be dismissed. Genious i tell you.






    I'm not going to talk about this anymore, i'm convinced no matter what i say you wont read it. Fan boys are a part of life, just dont worry about it, you'll grow out of it.


    Now excuse me, i laugh a little and then go back to check out ever major MVP pole and see how many(95%) agree with me that Nash is more deserving of the MVP award than Billups.
     
  17. 02civic

    02civic JBB JustBBall Rookie Team

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Messages:
    1,213
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting hustler:</div><div class="quote_post">This hurts me to hear that Kobe deserves it over Billups, i'm heart shattered.</div>


    its tough i know. But its hard to say he doesnt deserve it when looking at his numbers + the fact that his team is far lighter in talent then many other western conference teams that arent in the playoffs. He's carried them much like Lebron has carried his team, only Lebrons had more help from his supporting cast.
     
  18. NTC

    NTC Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2004
    Messages:
    3,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    What ever dude, I dont have the time to keep on going back and forth like this (took me close to 45 minutes to write up my last post), lets just agree to disagree, we'll soon see who the MVP is, and I'll say this, if its anyone other than Nash or Billups, i'll be dissapointed.
     
  19. hustler

    hustler Revving up the Engine

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2005
    Messages:
    2,509
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    I'd quit the game of basketball if Kobe wins it, that's how far i go.
     
  20. og15

    og15 JBB *********

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,594
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    About Chauncey's FG%, he takes a lot of three's, but also makes a lot. In terms of scoring efficiency, him and Nash are actually quite close. Chauncey also shoots 90%+ from the line, but he goes to the line about 3 times more per game.

    <u>TS%</u>
    Nash - 63.0%
    Billups - 60.6%

    Looking at that, their scoring efficiency is not really far from each other, though Nash still has the margin, it's not a very big one.

    In terms of their turnovers, Nash usage rate is 23.7, and Billups is 23.5, so they're basically the same in that area, which means there won't be any skewing of the stats due to one guy handling the ball a lot.

    Nash has a 4.4 to 1 assist to bad pass ratio, and Billups has a disgusting 6.8 to 1 ratio. Obviously Billups also has a superior assist to turnover ratio.

    Billups turnover ratio is 8.0, and Nash's is 12.0, so in terms of the PG things, while Billups is lower in APG totals, he actually could arguably get the nod as he wins in everything regarding efficiency and taking care of the ball.

    On the Pistons, Billups like most good PG's is the difference between them being a 44 win team with Lindsey Hunter as the starting PG, and the best team record wise in the league. Is it easier to make a good team great, an average team good, or a bad team average? It depends, a guy like Billups or Nash won't carry one of those Milt Palacio and Michael Curry filled teams to the playoffs because they need weapons around them for their games to be fully impactful. Then again, a guy like Kobe might not make the Suns or the Pistons as good as they are, even though they'd be more talented.

    Billups also has the advantage of being a FAR superior defensive player, and I guess some are using his domination over Nash during the season as an argument for him.

    Nash is a superior playmaker, while Nash would go down to about 8-9 APG, and Billups up to about 10 APG if they switched positions, Billups is inferior in his playmaking ability, though he's not bad at all.

    I don't think either guy should win it anyways, I'm going with either Lebron or Dirk on this one.
     

Share This Page