<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jun 18 2008, 10:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It doesn't change my perception of him, but I'm glad that it will change most people's. He's the best guard we've seen since MJ and lately I've felt that there's been this attempt to elevate him to that level. We're a bit removed from the days when Jordan dominated so its easy to get caught up in that comparison, but this series showed that Kobe is human and like every other superstar other than MJ, he needs his teammates to step up in order to be successful.</div> that's not even remotely true. Scottie Pippen is one of the 40 best players ever and the best Wing defender ever too IMO. His ability to be a great Robin to Jordan's Batman and could shut down any SG or SF. For his first 3 titles he had Horace Grant at PF, a very good defender, solider spot up shooter, great at getting open when Jordan was double teamed and a solid rebounder. For his second 3-peat toss in Rodman for Ho-Grant. They always had solid vet role players who knew their role, kinda like the Spurs. The one superstar who did more with less was Hakeem and his back to back titles while MJ was playing baseball. He had some solid clutch players like Sam Cassell and young Robert Horry, but there wasn't a true sidekick star helping him.
It has proved to me, once again, that Kobe can't win on his own. When the team sits around and expects him to bail them out of every fuckin' situation they put themselves in, they're going to lose. It confirmed for me, 100%, that Lamar Odom is fuckin' pathetic. He's a waste of fuckin' talent. Don't bother defending him Huevon or illmatic, it's not going to work. His role has been to disappear when we need him most...he did it verse Phoenix in game 7 two years ago, he did it last year, and he did it in the finals this year. The Finals confirmed for me that for a 7'1 big man, Pau Gasol might be the biggest pussy in the league. Kwame Brown didn't even let Boston man handle him like Pau was getting it. Absolutely pathetic display of heart by Pau. I can't wait to get Bynum back, there is a real player for you. Pau's game is soft and finesse, while Bynum's is hard and aggressive. I can't wait to see them together. Our role players are so terribly overrated. Outside of Sasha, Ariza, and maybe Jordan Farmar, our role players are shit. Why can't we find a James Posey, Rajon Rondo, Leon Powe? Instead we've got an overpaid Luke Walton, and overpaid Vladimir Radmanovic, a severely overrated Ronnie Turiaf, two players who disappear on the road in Sasha and Farmar, and a player who rotted away on the bench in Ariza. Watching this finals felt like I was watching last year's Lakers. They all counted on Kobe way too much, yet when he was establishing a hot streak...they didn't go to him. When the team couldn't get it going, they looked to Kobe to bail them out...but they had gone away from him for so long that his shooting touch had cooled off. Kobe Bryant is still by far the best player in the NBA, and I would still rather have no other player leading my team. You give Kobe Bryant aggressive minded, tough, good role players, and he'll deliver a championship. We've got a few key pieces in Bynum, Gasol, Ariza, Sasha, and Farmar (maybe) to keep around him, everyone else is expendable. Another thing...Phil Jackson was severely out-coached. Ariza had a decent series, why didn't he give him more burn? Why didn't he give DJ Mbenga any burn? Maybe he could've hung in there with the physical Perkins. Phil, as well, counted on Kobe to bail them out. Disgusting play. The Los Angeles Laker's didn't show up to play in this series, they showed up to watch Kobe Bryant.
I think it tarnishes it a tad bit, if this was Dirk everyone would be pouring it on dude for not showing up........Kobe's a great offensive talent, but these are his biggest problems imo a.) I don't think he attacks the basket enough. He has plenty of offensive weaponry, but at times he falls in love with the jumpshot....see last night, see '04 against the Pistons......he can look "tmacish" at times. b.) he still has trouble figuring out what his team "needs" during certain points in the game. We even saw this in game 1 of the S.A. series...granted the lakers won, but it's obvious to see that Kobe has trouble picking his spots (Tex Winter even said the same thing a year ago). Sometimes he's too passive (Games 4 and 5 of this series, Phoenix Game 7 a couple of years ago), and sometimes he can be a black hole that settles for jumpshots c.) defense.....let us all please recognize that this dude isn't a first team defender, and imo he never was. Sometimes he gambles too much, he gets overpowered by bigger opponents like Lebron and Pierce (although his size is the reason for this one), etc. d.) mental toughness. Some might think this is a strength, but over his career I've seen a "lack" of it in certain instances I still think there's a chance he can bounce back with some changes to the roster next year (get rid of Odom for anything........please), but 2 bad final's apperances definitely tarnish his legacy somewhat.......
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>What about LeBron last year in the Finals? Can't help...</div> Lebron played horrible last year in the finals, but if you thought Kobe had nothing just look at what Lebron had to work with last year....
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Black Mamba @ Jun 18 2008, 10:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It has proved to me, once again, that Kobe can't win on his own. When the team sits around and expects him to bail them out of every fuckin' situation they put themselves in, they're going to lose. It confirmed for me, 100%, that Lamar Odom is fuckin' pathetic. He's a waste of fuckin' talent. Don't bother defending him Huevon or illmatic, it's not going to work. His role has been to disappear when we need him most...he did it verse Phoenix in game 7 two years ago, he did it last year, and he did it in the finals this year. The Finals confirmed for me that for a 7'1 big man, Pau Gasol might be the biggest pussy in the league. Kwame Brown didn't even let Boston man handle him like Pau was getting it. Absolutely pathetic display of heart by Pau. I can't wait to get Bynum back, there is a real player for you. Pau's game is soft and finesse, while Bynum's is hard and aggressive. I can't wait to see them together. Our role players are so terribly overrated. Outside of Sasha, Ariza, and maybe Jordan Farmar, our role players are shit. Why can't we find a James Posey, Rajon Rondo, Leon Powe? Instead we've got an overpaid Luke Walton, and overpaid Vladimir Radmanovic, a severely overrated Ronnie Turiaf, two players who disappear on the road in Sasha and Farmar, and a player who rotted away on the bench in Ariza. Watching this finals felt like I was watching last year's Lakers. They all counted on Kobe way too much, yet when he was establishing a hot streak...they didn't go to him. When the team couldn't get it going, they looked to Kobe to bail them out...but they had gone away from him for so long that his shooting touch had cooled off. Kobe Bryant is still by far the best player in the NBA, and I would still rather have no other player leading my team. You give Kobe Bryant aggressive minded, tough, good role players, and he'll deliver a championship. We've got a few key pieces in Bynum, Gasol, Ariza, Sasha, and Farmar (maybe) to keep around him, everyone else is expendable. Another thing...Phil Jackson was severely out-coached. Ariza had a decent series, why didn't he give him more burn? Why didn't he give DJ Mbenga any burn? Maybe he could've hung in there with the physical Perkins. Phil, as well, counted on Kobe to bail them out. Disgusting play. The Los Angeles Laker's didn't show up to play in this series, they showed up to watch Kobe Bryant.</div> what killed me about Odom was I thought he was perfect as the 3rd option, but damn he is really, really passive. I think we can see now why Gasol never even won a single game in the playoffs on Memphis too. That guy doesn't have a heart at all. I rag on Kobe, but man he was really alone out there a lot.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Dream @ Jun 18 2008, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think it tarnishes it a tad bit, if this was Dirk everyone would be pouring it on dude for not showing up........Kobe's a great offensive talent, but these are his biggest problems imo a.) I don't think he attacks the basket enough. He has plenty of offensive weaponry, but at times he falls in love with the jumpshot....see last night, see '04 against the Pistons......he can look "tmacish" at times. b.) he still has trouble figuring out what his team "needs" during certain points in the game. We even saw this in game 1 of the S.A. series...granted the lakers won, but it's obvious to see that Kobe has trouble picking his spots (Tex Winter even said the same thing a year ago). Sometimes he's too passive (Games 4 and 5 of this series, Phoenix Game 7 a couple of years ago), and sometimes he can be a black hole that settles for jumpshots c.) defense.....let us all please recognize that this dude isn't a first team defender, and imo he never was. Sometimes he gambles too much, he gets overpowered by bigger opponents like Lebron and Pierce (although his size is the reason for this one), etc. d.) mental toughness. Some might think this is a strength, but over his career I've seen a "lack" of it in certain instances I still think there's a chance he can bounce back with some changes to the roster next year (get rid of Odom for anything........please), but 2 bad final's apperances definitely tarnish his legacy somewhat.......</div> I am not here to argue, as I'm mentally drained (working three mornings in a row at 4 AM does that to you), but I don't agree with point A. Kobe attacks the rim a lot, it's hard to attack the rim when Boston is collapsing on you every time you touch the ball. He was constantly doubled and tripled, and his teammates weren't moving. I do agree that he can fall in love with his jumper, though. I'm convinced even MJ would've struggled in this series with the defense that Boston threw at Kobe. They basically threw the kitchen sink at him, and it worked.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Celtic Fan @ Jun 18 2008, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Black Mamba @ Jun 18 2008, 10:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It has proved to me, once again, that Kobe can't win on his own. When the team sits around and expects him to bail them out of every fuckin' situation they put themselves in, they're going to lose. It confirmed for me, 100%, that Lamar Odom is fuckin' pathetic. He's a waste of fuckin' talent. Don't bother defending him Huevon or illmatic, it's not going to work. His role has been to disappear when we need him most...he did it verse Phoenix in game 7 two years ago, he did it last year, and he did it in the finals this year. The Finals confirmed for me that for a 7'1 big man, Pau Gasol might be the biggest pussy in the league. Kwame Brown didn't even let Boston man handle him like Pau was getting it. Absolutely pathetic display of heart by Pau. I can't wait to get Bynum back, there is a real player for you. Pau's game is soft and finesse, while Bynum's is hard and aggressive. I can't wait to see them together. Our role players are so terribly overrated. Outside of Sasha, Ariza, and maybe Jordan Farmar, our role players are shit. Why can't we find a James Posey, Rajon Rondo, Leon Powe? Instead we've got an overpaid Luke Walton, and overpaid Vladimir Radmanovic, a severely overrated Ronnie Turiaf, two players who disappear on the road in Sasha and Farmar, and a player who rotted away on the bench in Ariza. Watching this finals felt like I was watching last year's Lakers. They all counted on Kobe way too much, yet when he was establishing a hot streak...they didn't go to him. When the team couldn't get it going, they looked to Kobe to bail them out...but they had gone away from him for so long that his shooting touch had cooled off. Kobe Bryant is still by far the best player in the NBA, and I would still rather have no other player leading my team. You give Kobe Bryant aggressive minded, tough, good role players, and he'll deliver a championship. We've got a few key pieces in Bynum, Gasol, Ariza, Sasha, and Farmar (maybe) to keep around him, everyone else is expendable. Another thing...Phil Jackson was severely out-coached. Ariza had a decent series, why didn't he give him more burn? Why didn't he give DJ Mbenga any burn? Maybe he could've hung in there with the physical Perkins. Phil, as well, counted on Kobe to bail them out. Disgusting play. The Los Angeles Laker's didn't show up to play in this series, they showed up to watch Kobe Bryant.</div> what killed me about Odom was I thought he was perfect as the 3rd option, but damn he is really, really passive. I think we can see now why Gasol never even won a single game in the playoffs on Memphis too. That guy doesn't have a heart at all I rag on Kobe, but man he was really alone out there a lot. </div> If Odom is on this team next year and we're healthy and Bynum has no lingering problems from his injury, Odom will be the 4th option. Odom is going to get ripped by the local media, the fans, and maybe even Pjax. Phil has already stated that there needs to be some roster changes. I really hope shipping out Odom is one of them. As for Gasol...he's a typical European player. It's just disgusting to see a grown ass man like that, be so soft.
yeah u gotta give boston's defense credit, in all my years of watching basketball there are only a couple of teams that rival them defensively. I mean KG can dissapear on the offensive side of the floor at times, but he holds it down in the paint, and they have a gazillion perimeter defenders to throw at u. Thibodeaux will definitely be getting some calls this offseason, that's why the rockets D was so good last year...............
When people draw comparisons with LeBron's Finals appearance last year, they have to remember that the Cavs were a one man team with mediocre support players who can sometimes play well enough to be big contributors. The Spurs managed to shut LeBron down and his team mates did not step up to the plate. Kobe has a better squad around him than LeBron has or did last season. Also, the team that pushed the Celtics closest to being knocked out was the Cavs, who were 1 point down with 2:20 left in Game 7. I think LeBron may be the only player in the game at the moment who can truly win a game for his team alone. People will point to Kobe's 81 points, but I point to a lacklustre Raptors team. Instead, just look at LeBron over the Pistons last year, I don't think there's another player who could do that. (playing now)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Celtic Fan @ Jun 18 2008, 10:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>and take your PACE huevon and stick it where the sun don't shine, it goes WAY beyond the stats and into intangibles, something the all time greats have in Spades and something Kobe has only a little of.</div> Dude, I can throw Kobe under the bus and become a hater, but pace will still screw you if you act like it didn't matter in the 60s/70s.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chingy0007 @ Jun 18 2008, 11:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>When people draw comparisons with LeBron's Finals appearance last year, they have to remember that the Cavs were a one man team with mediocre support players who can sometimes play well enough to be big contributors. The Spurs managed to shut LeBron down and his team mates did not step up to the plate. Kobe has a better squad around him than LeBron has or did last season. Also, the team that pushed the Celtics closest to being knocked out was the Cavs, who were 1 point down with 2:20 left in Game 7. I think LeBron may be the only player in the game at the moment who can truly win a game for his team alone. People will point to Kobe's 81 points, but I point to a lacklustre Raptors team. Instead, just look at LeBron over the Pistons last year, I don't think there's another player who could do that. (playing now)</div> LeBron hasn't proven much of anything alone, like Kobe. And while one may be surrounded by Garbage, Superstars are at least supposed to play well regardless of the talent around them, which is why Kobe gets heat. Kobe had an easily comparable game against the Suns in Game 6 05-06 and lost.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>LeBron hasn't proven much of anything alone, like Kobe</div> explain???, lol........say what you will, but I think Lebron is every bit as good as Kobe, perhaps even better. He doesn't have the jumper that kobe has, but he's just as good in the clutch (maybe even better since he can get to the basket with relative ease), he's better defensively imo (his size alone does this for him), better rebounder, better passer, and gets to the basket at a higher rate. I really don't want to turn this into a "Kobe VS." thread but after this finals performance with the choking away of a 24 point lead and the debacle last night I'm questioning if he's the best player in the game.........
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Dream @ Jun 18 2008, 11:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>LeBron hasn't proven much of anything alone, like Kobe</div> explain“?, lol........say what you will, but I think Lebron is every bit as good as Kobe, perhaps even better. He doesn't have the jumper that kobe has, but he's just as good in the clutch (maybe even better since he can get to the basket with relative ease), he's better defensively imo (his size alone does this for him), better rebounder, better passer, and gets to the basket at a higher rate. I really don't want to turn this into a "Kobe VS." thread but after this finals performance with the choking away of a 24 point lead and the debacle last night I'm questioning if he's the best player in the game......... </div> After seeing the ugliest shit I've ever seen four straight games, I started to question bron. Did he even have better numbers against the C's overall? He cost his team Game 1. Dude are you serious? This isn't a stat-fest/individual achievement thread, we're talking about results right? K then.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>After seeing the ugliest shit I've ever seen four straight games, I started to question bron. Did he even have better numbers against the C's overall? He cost his team Game 1 against them too. Dude are you serious? This isn't a stat-fest/individual achievement thread, we're talking about results right? K then.</div> well the results were that Bron got his squad to a game 7 and if anyone besides him would've shown up they might be hoisting the trophy right now......he dropped 45, I think he got a triple double in one game, and in the words of Doc Rivers even when he wasn't shooting the ball "he still left his impact on the game" and was the best player on the court. Outside of Game 7 he did a really good job on Pierce also.....Bron was better against the celtics, it's not even close imo....
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Dream @ Jun 18 2008, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>After seeing the ugliest shit I've ever seen four straight games, I started to question bron. Did he even have better numbers against the C's overall? He cost his team Game 1 against them too. Dude are you serious? This isn't a stat-fest/individual achievement thread, we're talking about results right? K then.</div> well the results were that Bron got his squad to a game 7 and if anyone besides him would've shown up they might be hoisting the trophy right now......he dropped 45, I think he got a triple double in one game, and in the words of Doc Rivers even when he wasn't shooting the ball "he still left his impact on the game" and was the best player on the court. Outside of Game 7 he did a really good job on Pierce also.....Bron was better against the celtics, it's not even close imo.... </div> LeBron would have easily cost his team a 24 point lead with his performance early on. LeBron didn't earn 2 of those wins at all, and cost his team another one. He wasn't even close to impressive, He's hardly anything to brag about.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe schooled LeBron in efficiency, I don't know what you're talking about. I believe it was 5 TS%. LeBron would have easily cost his team a 24 point lead with his performance early on. LeBron didn't earn 2 of those wins at all, and cost his team another one. He wasn't even close to impressive, He's hardly anything to brag about.</div> well lebron didn't shoot to well in a blowout game so apparently he didn't cost them, lol. And LOL @ Lebron didn't earn his wins "at all"...eventhough every freagin play was ran through him...every single play. He got his team to a 7th game, performed amazing and was a one man show and still barely lost against the champs.....He also defended Pierce much better........Lebron outperformed Kobe when it comes to the celts, and he outperformed them head to head this year also..........give the dude his propers.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Dream @ Jun 18 2008, 12:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe schooled LeBron in efficiency, I don't know what you're talking about. I believe it was 5 TS%. LeBron would have easily cost his team a 24 point lead with his performance early on. LeBron didn't earn 2 of those wins at all, and cost his team another one. He wasn't even close to impressive, He's hardly anything to brag about.</div> well lebron didn't shoot to well in a blowout game so apparently he didn't cost them, lol. And LOL @ Lebron didn't earn his wins "at all"...eventhough every freagin play was ran through him...every single play. He got his team to a 7th game, performed amazing and was a one man show and still barely lost against the champs.....He also defended Pierce much better........Lebron outperformed Kobe when it comes to the celts, and he outperformed them head to head this year also..........give the dude his propers. </div> Seriously, this is the same guy who said Kobe was not "average", but "awful" in Game 2. Kobe "won" one game as well, the Lakers escaped with #3. And lol at it "not even being close" when he had empirically the worst 4 stretch EVER, in the playoffs. You don't have much Dream, Kobe sucked, and so did LeBron.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Celtic Fan @ Jun 18 2008, 10:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jun 18 2008, 10:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It doesn't change my perception of him, but I'm glad that it will change most people's. He's the best guard we've seen since MJ and lately I've felt that there's been this attempt to elevate him to that level. We're a bit removed from the days when Jordan dominated so its easy to get caught up in that comparison, but this series showed that Kobe is human and like every other superstar other than MJ, he needs his teammates to step up in order to be successful.</div> that's not even remotely true. Scottie Pippen is one of the 40 best players ever and the best Wing defender ever too IMO. His ability to be a great Robin to Jordan's Batman and could shut down any SG or SF. For his first 3 titles he had Horace Grant at PF, a very good defender, solider spot up shooter, great at getting open when Jordan was double teamed and a solid rebounder. For his second 3-peat toss in Rodman for Ho-Grant. They always had solid vet role players who knew their role, kinda like the Spurs. The one superstar who did more with less was Hakeem and his back to back titles while MJ was playing baseball. He had some solid clutch players like Sam Cassell and young Robert Horry, but there wasn't a true sidekick star helping him. </div> You are absolutely right. Clyde Drexler is one of the shittiest players I've ever seen play...
Lebron also hit the 30 point mark or better 3 or more times, Lebron also played Pierce "much" better, Lebron also had much less to work with and still almost beat this team by himself, he was able to "get off" against the C's unlike Kobe, he didn't allow his team to blow a 24 point lead at home, Lebron didn't allow (even with his crappy teammates) to be CRUSHED by damn near 40 points in an elimination game.....................the point is you have no argument against any of these points, because they're all facts, which is why you'll resort to "lol" in your next post.............there needs to be a serious "?" on whether or not kobe's the best player in the game after this series..........sorry........
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>You are absolutely right. Clyde Drexler is one of the shittiest players I've ever seen play...</div> lol, I think he was talkin bout the first title, which in that case is very true.....
