crazy stuff... well its part of us being "human" sigh... WAR... i agree... lets stay out of this... no more american soldiers dying
I think the chances we do anything militarily in this situation are near zero. Bush is using Diplomacy, which is something the Russians probably care little about. UN resolutions next? Sanctions? The Russians have a veto in the security council, good luck on that.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 11 2008, 08:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Real @ Aug 11 2008, 06:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 11 2008, 08:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Why is it OK for us to have a Monroe Doctrine, but not for Russia to have something similar of their own?</div> So it's safe to assume you consider S.O. part of Russia or Russian territory? </div> S.O. is in Russia's hemisphere. </div> ..But it's not part of Russia.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 11 2008, 09:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>What is the Monroe Doctrine?</div> Europeans couldn't colonize or interfere in American affairs, in which America would stay neutral towards other wars but if a war involving a European nation were to occur in America then America can respond militarily. I get that. Again, I understood that S.O. declared independence and achieved overwhelming support on it, but even if it were independent, why would it be Russian territory? Because Russia gives them aid? I'm just trying to understand this fully.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Real @ Aug 11 2008, 08:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 11 2008, 09:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>What is the Monroe Doctrine?</div> Europeans couldn't colonize or interfere in American affairs, in which America would stay neutral towards other wars but if a war involving a European nation were to occur in America then America can respond militarily. I get that. Again, I understood that S.O. declared independence and achieved overwhelming support on it, but even if it were independent, why would it be Russian territory? Because Russia gives them aid? I'm just trying to understand this fully. </div> Not quite right. No nation couldn't interfere with any state in North or South America, it's basically OUR hemisphere to dominate. Seems to me S.O is in Russia's hemisphere and they have a long history that has nothing to do with us until very recently.
Monroe Doctrine is the basis of US foriegn policy, it basically states that the US will not tolerate old world powers interfering in the new world. South Ossetia is in the Russian sphere of influence. during the Cold War, the US pretty much admitted that that area is pretty much Russia's and we wont get involved in it. But that was back before the Bush Doctrine. Which basically states that we have the right to us military force if we feel we're justified in doing so. But my guess is that the US will do absolutely nothing here. The Russians, or Soviets, threatened Western Europe for 50 years and we didn't do jack shit, I see no reason as to why we'd do anything right now. especially since Georgia offer very little strategic, economic, or resource importances to the US. The US will attempt to do something in the UN, but with Russia having a seat on the security counsil they'll just block it and nothing will get done. I think the biggest worry here is what does Iran do. Iran and Russia have been forming so close ties, and Iran has been looking to flex it's muscels for some time now. If they get involved(which I dont think is likely) than this could all escalate into something very bad. Not WWIII bad, but definately something that could leave tens of thousands dead.
^^^ Very nice. Not sure where the Bush doctrine fits into this all. Those states who sponsor or harbor terrorists, or who are imminent threats can be the basis for pre-emptive warmaking. Where does Russia fit into this? S.O. ?
Bush has vaguely suggested that it also covers keeping the world safe for Democracy, and, atleast on the Georgian side, some feel that Russia intends to replace the government in Tblisi with one more friendly to Moscow.
I think JFK suggested that we'd fight any fight, bear any burden, yada yada, to make the world safe for Democracy. Sounds like it'd be HIS doctrine, no? It's hard to debate with the Russians if they think the Chechnyans and Georgians are terrorists, or that it's OK for us to nation build but not the Russians. My hope is that the Russians simply overrun Georgia in a few more days and the mass killing stops.
The origins of that come from the Truman Doctrine I believe. But it's not uncommon for other "Doctrines" to pick up stuff from their predescessors. the Monroe Doctrine has a lot of stuff from statements made by Adams and Jefferson. And if you look at it close enough, most of the Truman Doctrine actually comes from Jeffersonian ideas in dealing with the Barbers. The Chechnyans are terrorist, and so are the Ossetias to some degree. The problem a lot of people are worried about here, is the Russians have a past history of invading their neighbors. If they get Georgia with no resistances, what's to stop them from turning their attention to say Ukraine or Kazakstan? I dont think this will be quick, I'm pretty sure there is some secret branch of the CIA funnelling weapons into Georgia like it did in Afghanistan in the 1980s. We'll arm them good enough so that they can put up a solid resistance. if it gets to hard, I think Russia will withdraw. Right now their primary concern is rebuilding their internal structures after the collapse of the Soviet Union. They do want to become a military superpower again, but getting bogged down in a stupid little war in the Caucuses isn't going to help them achieve their ultimate goal. If it gets to bloody they may go with international mediation, and try to force some concessions that way.
Your posts are a pleasure to read, FWIW. Your point about Truman is well taken. Though I would say that a doctrine isn't a doctrine unless a president declares it to be so. Judging from the news reports, the Russians are dominating the fight and it's looking like as quick a "mission accomplished" for the Russians as it was for us in Gulf War II (about 3 weeks, start to finish). http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=08...;show_article=1 US military surprised by speed, timing of Russia military action The US military was surprised by the timing and swiftness of the Russian military's move into South Ossetia and is still trying to sort out what happened, a US defense official said Monday. Russian forces surged into the breakaway region last week after weeks of clashes, threats and warnings between Tblisi and Moscow which culminated August 6 in a two-day Georgian offensive into South Ossetia. That the two countries were on a collision course was no surprise to anyone, but the devastating Russian response was not expected, officials said. "We were tracking it earlier in that week and we knew that things were escalating," said a military official, who asked not to be identified. "I can tell you it moved quicker than we anticipated that first day." But how it unfolded is still unclear, clouded by conflicting claims from both sides. "I think a lot of what you're asking needs to be ironed out," said the official. "Some of these little issues are definitely still big questions in this event -- What was the intent? Who started it? Why did they start it? And why weren't they prepared to defend what they started?" President George W. Bush, who urged Moscow to cease fire and return to pre-August 6 positions, charged in a televised statement that Russia's intention appeared to be depose Georgia's democratically elected president. But the extent of the Russian operation remained unclear to US officials on Monday. Georgian officials said Russian troops had moved out of South Ossetia into Georgia proper, occupying the city of Gori while Georgian troops were retreating to the capital. But US defense officials said they were unable to corroborate the Georgian claims. "We don't see anything that supports they are in Gori," said a defense official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "I don't know why the Georgians are saying that." "That assessment is ongoing," said Bryan Whitman, a Pentagon spokesman. The United States has among the most powerful tools for monitoring brewing conflicts, from spy satellites to reconnaissance aircraft and drones capable of scooping up radio signals or capture real-time images of forces on the ground. But the extent to which they were trained on this remote conflict before it turned violent is not known. The Russians, however, warned on August 3 of a growing threat of "large scale military conflict" between Georgia and South Ossetia. The State Department issued a mild statement on August 5 urging Moscow to refrain from provocative actions, but gave no hint that it was aware that military action either by Georgia or Russia was in the offing. Officials have suggested the fighting was not seen as an immediate threat, in part because there were only about 95 US troops and 35 civilian contractors in the country training Georgian troops for Iraq. And they were not near South Ossetia. Some 1,650 US troops conducted a joint exercise with the Georgian military in mid-July. But they were out of the country when the hostilities flared. At around the same time, the Russian military deployed 8,000 troops to the North Caucases for counter-terrorism exercises that Moscow said were unrelated to the tensions with its southern neighbor. The US defense official said about 8,000 to 10,000 Russian troops have moved into South Ossetia. They also have flown SU-25, SU-24, SU-27 and TU-22 fighters and bombers during the campaign. But the official said there was no obvious buildup of Russian forces along the border that signaled an intention to invade. "Once it did happen they were able to get the forces quickly and it was just a matter of taking the roads in. So it's not as though they were building up forces on the border, waiting," the official said. "What are their future intentions, I don't know. Obviously they could throw more troops at this if they wanted to," he said.
About Putin, he's not only a communist, he's a dictator basically, he runs every part of the country and has absolute control of everything inside the Russian Federation. So what are your thoughts Joker? (being that you're Russian)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticKing @ Aug 11 2008, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>About Putin, he's not only a communist, he's a dictator basically, he runs every part of the country and has absolute control of everything inside the Russian Federation. So what are your thoughts Joker? (being that you're Russian)</div> I did say that the Soviet Union will rise again. ftw! My parents, however, have split opinions on this matter. My mother thinks that Russia isn't the "bad guy" here, while my father sees them as complete assholes. No surprise here, because my father completely hates Russia.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Joker @ Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticKing @ Aug 11 2008, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>About Putin, he's not only a communist, he's a dictator basically, he runs every part of the country and has absolute control of everything inside the Russian Federation. So what are your thoughts Joker? (being that you're Russian)</div> I did say that the Soviet Union will rise again. ftw! My parents, however, have split opinions on this matter. My mother thinks that Russia isn't the "bad guy" here, while my father sees them as complete assholes. No surprise here, because my father completely hates Russia. </div> But he's Russian as well right?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticKing @ Aug 11 2008, 11:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Joker @ Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticKing @ Aug 11 2008, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>About Putin, he's not only a communist, he's a dictator basically, he runs every part of the country and has absolute control of everything inside the Russian Federation. So what are your thoughts Joker? (being that you're Russian)</div> I did say that the Soviet Union will rise again. ftw! My parents, however, have split opinions on this matter. My mother thinks that Russia isn't the "bad guy" here, while my father sees them as complete assholes. No surprise here, because my father completely hates Russia. </div> But he's Russian as well right? </div> Yep.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (soul driver @ Aug 11 2008, 07:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think China and Iran are bigger threats than Russia..I don't know if Russia will ever be able to be the power it once was.</div> Russia has over 10,000 nuclear weapons. China has over 300 IIRC. Iran... nada. It doesn't take much power to launch a nuclear weapon. Only the desire too. Not saying it will come to that (it won't).... but Russia remains the greater threat for now.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 11 2008, 10:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think JFK suggested that we'd fight any fight, bear any burden, yada yada, to make the world safe for Democracy. Sounds like it'd be HIS doctrine, no? It's hard to debate with the Russians if they think the Chechnyans and Georgians are terrorists, or that it's OK for us to nation build but not the Russians. My hope is that the Russians simply overrun Georgia in a few more days and the mass killing stops.</div> We overran Iraq, ridded their hostile regime, and intend to turn it back over to the Iraqi people. Russia.....is overrunning Georgia.... and.....?
