...a lot has happened since America was founded..."God" Bless America!!! [video=youtube;MeSSwKffj9o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o[/video] [video=youtube;qYW2xXxFVtU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYW2xXxFVtU[/video] [video=youtube;8RV46fsmx6E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RV46fsmx6E[/video] [video=youtube;ZiZcKomzHaU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiZcKomzHaU[/video]
To be sure, we may now be a country that is no longer based on Judeo-Christian beliefs, but it is how we were founded and sustained for a long time.
Don't we have more important things to worry about than this tripe? We were also a nation "birthed" on taking over many sovereign entities, killing millions of it's inhabitants, a destroying their culture. We're a nation that was birthed discounting a large portion of it's inhabitants (done by the North actually), and allowing those people to be considered property. I'm not sure if we should really be relying on going back to how the country used to be. Unless of course, you want to white wash all of the bad and glorify only what you want to be proud of. Heh, 5 bucks says some flat brain accuses me of only remembering the negative and hating America.
I think our leaders are much, much more religious now than many of our founders were. Imagine Gore or Gingrich saying this: Imagine Obama or McCain saying this: Here's Jefferson's unscientific poll about including Christianity in the constitution:
When was the last time you heard any of our present leaders say something like this?? If you can find a single quote from a present leader of the Democratic party who has said something this strong about God, I'd love to see it. This is where people like Jefferson go wrong. Christ could not have been merely "an extraordinary man." He claimed to be the son of God, and a divine being. If he wasn't, then he was a lunatic with serious delusions. You can't have it both ways. Hardly. Some of those "inferior minds" were people who knew Christ personally, and saw his miracles. Much of the New Testament is written by men who lived at the same time that Christ did, and who filled in the blanks about His life. To compare their accounts to "dunghills," as Jefferson does, is an example of his hubris more than anything else.
You can't be extraordinary and insane? Seems like history is littered with the wreckage of extraordinary and insane people.
Penn and Teller absolutely nail it. Like in a previous thread, 16% of the nation, bigger than any other minority, are anti-religion. There is no way to validate any of the claims in the bible. We just have to take the word of a bunch of random human beings?
Religions are thinly veiled methods of controlling people. Once people figure that out, then this world will be a lot better place. All they are about is money, power, and controlling the masses. You are seeing that in Iran right now, and our religions here in the states are no different. They have tried many times to take over our government and push religion through the government institutions. They want to make us all live as they would live. While I acknowledge a lot of folks in religious based groups do a lot of good things, I would remind you that you don't have to be in a religious group to do good things. There are good folks all over the place. You don't have to be religious to be a good person.
Oh, my. I think a lot of people have trouble controlling themselves, and religion actually helps to center them and give them peace. I've seen it more times than I can count. You're confusing the modern institutions of religion with their founding principles. Christ was certainly not about "controlling the masses." What you don't realize is that religion shapes culture in many subtle and indirect ways, and that the "good things" we do are often the product of the environment we have grown up in, and the religious and moral-ethical beliefs that have been handed down to us. No one grows up in a vacuum.
I agree with you on this, actually. I don't believe Christ was "son of God," but I think he had very worthwhile things to say. Organized religion is the problem. Personal quests for spirituality (which can certainly include following Christ's teachings, if one is so inclined) are perfectly reasonable. But in its organized form, religion seems to foster a lot of groupthink and "us against them" sentiment.
Actually you can have it both ways. If you believe as I do that the Roman Empire changed critical parts of the Bible for it's own purposes to create a political religion. Jesus may very well have said "I am the son of god, just as you are the sons and daughters of god, for there can be no one within creation who is not the son and daughter of god." Indeed this is what translations of the ancient greek (pre-council of Nycaea) show us. That would go far more towards the peace he wished to bring us then the deification (like the roman PAGAN gods) of a man who was bringing a truly radical message. I believe without a shadow of doubt that Jesus Christ was a man who was born of a woman and who came to know the divine within himself and broke free of the bondage of this world and wished to show others the way. He did not say "Worhsip me" he said "Be as the flowers, be as the little children, the body is a temple, before you enter the temple forgive, the kingdom of heaven is AMONGST you." He was teaching us to find our holy connection to god he did not wish to be worshiped this was a mistake that came later. Jesus is the son of god a truly realized divine being. We are all capable of this and it is what will allow us to transcend our repetitive mistakes that the ego/mind (the voice of satan if you like) that tells us the lie that we are seperate from god. How COULD we be seperate from god if god is Omnipresent? How could we not be a part of god if god is Omnipotent? You can never be seperate from god find solace in that.
HAAK72, i hate people who bash religion, just as much as i hate people who are extremists. I myself am agnostic, but i think a really huge misconception that people have about religion, is that religion has absolutely no influence on people, but really bad/idiotic people use religion to influence other people or for personal gain. If there was no religion, people would find something else to fight about, or use for self gain. Religion doesn't cause people to be ignorant, or start wars, or become violent, people are just inherently made that way, mostly contributed by the way they were brought up or their surroundings. religion or no religion, people are stupid arrogant violent fucks.
I absolutely agree. The blueprint for destruction lies within every human being: The ego which makes us feel seperate from everything, The mind which is a wonderful servant but a terrible master leading us to things like nuclear weapons as a master but things like dentistry as a servant, and the collection of psychological pain that is the "story of our life". From those three psychic entities ego, mind, pain legacy all of humanities horros come. Animals are without these problems except in rare cases. This is what Jesus meant we he said look at the little children (meaning a child 1 year old or less) be as the little children (free of ego and transcending the mind - making it a servant - and forgiving of the pain suffered). This is his message which makes us free. Know the truth and it will set you free! If you find that intriguing I can point you towards some books that will help elucidate. If you are from a christian background I highly recommend "The Mystical I" by Joel Goldsmith.
I agree with much of this. But it is not religion that creates group think. It is something much closer to us all. It is the human ego which then becomes the group ego through identification with a group. Look at PETA look at either political party in the US. One doesn't need religion to have group think. It is simply an externalization of the human mind/ego complex. Jesus is but one of many sons and daughters of god who found within themselves (As it is within us all) the connection to the source of all creation (god if you like but that is a fairly loaded term) the infinite (hard to have MY infinite and YOUR infinite). By going deeply within himself ("the body is a temple", " before you enter the temple, forgive") he was able to still his own mind and disolve once and for all his ego seeing it for the illusion that it was. By doing so he realized his transcendent divnity. For we are ALL sons and daughters of god by diving deeply within ourselves and discovering the source we can all dissolve the ego and find true everlasting piece and the connection and profound love we all crave. I have not yet fully had this realization but I am aware of it's existance. Buddha, Jesus, Krishna all were able to discover the divine power we are all created from and made of. We all exist within the one unified spirit of god. You cannot be seperate from it, you can only feel seperated due to your ego. Physics shows that we are all part of one vast vibratory field this is what god is both the manifested and the infinite potential of the unmanifested which holds within it the manifested.
I agree with this, I was unclear. Religion doesn't create groupthink, which is a human tendency, but it creates a vehicle for it. The fewer such entities that encourage groupthink, the better.
What is a sports fan, or a Blazer fan, if not a member of a kind of "groupthink"? All of us love the Blazers, are united around them, and defend them from all charges. We die a little inside when they lose, and we celebrate together when they win. This is classic groupthink--but I don't have a problem with it. Do you? The charge of "groupthink" against religion is ridiculous, in my opinion--mainly because groupthink is rampant throughout society, in all kinds of forms. You can't operate a company without a group of employees who are loyal to it, and will strive together to make it successful, and defend it against its competitors. Every protest group against the Vietnam war was a kind of groupthink, and every person who subscribes to the theory of evolution, or global warming, is a member of groupthink. This idea that the world would somehow be a better place if we were all completely independant and "untainted" by any kind of groupthink is just a fantasy. We all belong to groupthink of one kind or another.
