Trade Monta Ellis

Discussion in 'Golden State Warriors' started by AlleyOop, Dec 18, 2010.

  1. AlleyOop

    AlleyOop JBB JustBBall Member

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    I really think it's time to start this again. I was a big fan of it last year. Even though I have loved Monta's heart and his exciting game. I just thought GS needs a better fit at the SG, and they could get a better value cashing in on him in his prime.

    Well, he has been playing at an all-star level this season. But it isn't helping GS win games.

    And tonight, against Portland, the Warriors looked better with Monta on the bench.

    When he was in the game, everyone would just stand around and watch Monta go 1-on-3 and force shots. No ball movement. No cuts. No back-door screen. The only screen is the constant high screen so Monta can make a move. Just ugly.

    Gs was down by 16. Monta came out, and Law and Carney came in, and suddenly GS looked like a team. Moving. Cutting. Passing. And they cut the lead to 8. And then 6. Monta came back in, and the team eventually got a chance to win with the final shot.

    And they went to Monta, which was good. But he should have gone to the hoop and tried to get fouled or tried to dish. But he just went and-1 crossover, out on the perimeter, while everyone stood around watching him, and then an ugly off-balance jumper.

    Monta is a fantastic scorer. But it's just not really making his teammates better. And he's getting a lot of steals, but he's looking like CJ Watson out there, just jumping for steals and making the big men deal with his man. Andre Miller easily got by Monta several times tonight.

    I love Monta's scoring, and his speed and excitement. But I don't like his body language right now. I don't like his game. When the jumpers fall, it's great. When they clang, it's ugly. But what I'm really looking at is the team flow, and frankly it looked a lot better with Carney/Law/Williams/Radmonovic/Lee out there. They looked spirited. Enthusiastic.

    Monta's value will never be higher. I honestly don't believe he will ever get any better than this. Exciting scoring, but even though he scraps, he still gives up a lot on the defensive end. Monta used to be very good without the ball. Baron would find him for mid-range jumpers, alley oops, and several 1-man fast breaks every night.

    Now, it's him with the ball in his hands, always. And the one thing I notice about Monta, is he is always improvising. He never knows what he is going to do until he is doing it. That's often a jaw-dropping, amazing acrobatic move. But it's also getting caught in the air, weak turnovers, charges, bad passes, and forced shots. Tonight he had 7 turnovers, all ugly.

    I don't like Monta's body language, and I don't think the team is playing well as a team right now. Monta's value is very high. I would love to try to get a deal done right now.

    I said earlier in another thread I wouldn't do Monta/Gerald Wallace. And I still wouldn't. But I'm ready to consider packages. If we can get a good SG to compliment Curry's return, I'm all for it. I think David Lee should be featured more. He scored 20ppg in NY. Lately, he is just chasing Monta around, trying to get the ball from him, setting 40 high screens a night, but Monta always takes it himself. OR, if he does dish it, it's an awkward pass.

    This team does not look good right now with Monta just forcing and everyone standing around watching him. He's been a fantastic scorer -- I think it's time to cash-in while his numbers are up and get a few players back who will compliment the team chemistry better.
     
  2. jason bourne

    jason bourne JBB JustBBall Member

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    Monta wasn't the only one playing sloppy. The team didn't look good and was playing boring for most of the game except in the 4Q. For whatever reason, they weren't in rhythm and playing slow. I don't think you can blame it all on Ellis.

    As for a couple of stretches, I have to agree Monta wasn't playing well and the team played better without him, but give Monta credit when they came back. I have to criticize Ellis' basketball IQ on a few plays, so I rather see the ball in Curry's hands. Curry is a strong playmaker, so he can dictate where people should be going including Monta. Without Curry, Monta kind of takes over and that's when we get Monta ball and frustration when he's not scoring. The W's need a strong playmaker and distributor in order to keep the ball out of Monta's hands, but even then we're going to get nights like this. I have to say Mags was even worse than Monta in regards to ball hogging and one-on-one play.

    As for trading Ellis, I'm not sure if that will solve the problem. I rather see the team play a more uptempo game than slow it down and get more players involved. I agree Ellis dominates the ball, so if he isn't producing, then either rest him or get someone else going. Also, the Warriors defense is rather spotty, so I can't see it being a strong point right now. Getting Wallace will give you a good perimeter defender, but we got that in DWright. Some people want Andre Iguodala and he may be more of an answer in regards to replacing Ellis, but he comes with a high price tag and more inconsistent scoring than Ellis.
     
  3. i hate the warriors

    i hate the warriors Slingboxing from LONDON

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    At the beginning of the season, when we had Steph and a two-armed David Lee, everybody was commenting on how well Monta was playing without the ball. Everybody was saying how Monta had gone back to his role on the '07 playoff team...and rightfully so. But now, when we've won 2 of our last 17, it's pretty easy to point fingers. A large stretch of that second half last night was with 1.5 of our starters. Biedrins out, Steph out, DWright sitting, and a gimpy version of David Lee along with Monta. Our offense was atrocious...and yeah, Monta had to go into 2008-2010 mode and throw the whole team on his back...but honestly, what's the alternative in that case? Yeah, they did get some nice production when it was Law, Carney, Vlad, etc. but who were they going up against? If I remember correctly, McMillan was running mostly scrubs at that time. I'm not a big fan of Carney, and we all know that Vlad is garbage for the most part. We can't expect consistent production out of that squad. If we can get an all-star caliber player in return for Monta, I'm open to it. But I can see us dealing him for 3 bench players, and that's just not good enough. This team has a lot of problems that need to be addressed, but I don't feel that replacing Monta is the priority. I understand that the 2-guard is the most easily replaced position, so if we could deal him for a game-changing 5, I'm down. But like I've repeatedly said, Monta is one of the better bargains in the league. When he's asked to do too much, he does too much...and yeah, it gets sloppy. But I truly believe that Monta could be the third option on a championship team. I just don't feel like he's stunting our progress at this point. Put it this way, nobody has proposed a hypothetical (and realistic) trade involving Monta that I would be willing to do. One I'd be open to would be to get Marc Gasol. But to those of you who are in favor of dealing Monta while his stock is high, throw out a couple potential trade ideas. But all the ones I've seen so far, I wouldn't touch, personally.
     
  4. jason bourne

    jason bourne JBB JustBBall Member

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    Here's one. Trade Monta and change for Gerald Wallace and move DWright to SG. I dunno if that would work. Then we still have a C in Biedrins and the flow would be better.

    PG: Curry
    SG: DWright
    SF: GWallace
    PF: DLee
    C: AB

    Not bad. I like it.
     
  5. i hate the warriors

    i hate the warriors Slingboxing from LONDON

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    That makes our best scorer our point guard though. For some reason that makes me nervous.
     
  6. Clif10

    Clif10 Member

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    Last night I was not sure if Monta was on drugs, drunk, or sleepy/tired because his play was really bad and his mind seemed to be anywhere but in the game.

    I think the problem with Monta is that he did not get to develop his game at the college level where players can better learn the team game. I think all high school to pro basketball players struggle in this aspect, fortunately for Kobe he had Phil Jackson.

    I agree with AlleyOop. The offense is atrocious. Monta is best when he is playing within the offense like he was at the beginning of the season. Then he was taking the shots that were given to him and he focused less on creating too much in isolation. The offense at the start of the season prided itself on having five people who can handle and pass the ball. Now it's rare when the team actually moves off the ball or the ball it self. At the start there were not even many high screens. Now that is all you see and isolation.

    This problem happens with even the likes of Kobe. I don't think a trade should be the first option to fix this. But I will not rule it out completely. It all depends on who the team can get in return. But I prefer a strategic change from the coach first.

    Also does Monta have small hands? He keeps fumbling the ball where it seems to squirt out randomly during the game or he will bounce it off his foot. Anyone else notice this?
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2010
  7. AlleyOop

    AlleyOop JBB JustBBall Member

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    Yeah, I don't think Wright can play SG. People will double Curry on the inbounds and make Wright play PG and he will fumble and have turnovers. He's no where as nifty as Jax, for example. He has decent handles but I think he'll be exposed there.

    I don't mind talking Wallace, though. Maybe in a deal involving Beans instead? Beans/Vlad for Wallace/Mohammed?

    I think GS should be looking at is the Sixers. I think Iggy would be awesome at the 2 spot. Awesome athleticism, defense, and can give you that scoring option as well. The guy has played all 82 games the last 4 years, and 6 out of 7 career years!!! One year he played 76, all the rest 82. He's played 486 out of 492 games. Talk about iron man.

    And, he's always been a premier perimeter defender. But his numbers have always been good too. last year, 17 PPG, 7 RPG, 6 APG and 1.7 SPG at the SG spot is pretty darn productive. I mean look at the assists and rebounds. This from an athletic finisher/scorer/dunker. He's also shooting the three better this year at 37%.

    How about Monta/Vlad for Iggy/Nocioni: http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=24u6zay

    Nocioni isn't getting much run in Philly but I've always loved his game. Tough defense and he's always shot the three well.

    Curry/Law
    Iggy/Williams
    Nocioni/Wright
    Lee/Lou
    Beans/Gadz/Udoh

    I think that's a very well rounded group with improved defense and rebounding, for sure. I think this is the kind of trade where you'll see the impact in wins/losses. Monta has much more PPG but I think Iggy's whole-game contributions, with rebounds, assists, and being able to lock down the opposing SGs in the West... he'll be more valuable to the team. And then let Curry have the ball in his hands to find Lee/Iggy for shots.
     
  8. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    I'm in complete agreement with you Alley. Philly seems so logical. Iggy seems to be on the outs. Hawes is starting to play well but up until maybe a week ago they had a weakness at C. They want Turner to get a lot of burn at SF- they could use a SG. And with Jrue at PG they can run a smaller SG out there next to him. Not sure what is going through their GM's head but it seems like he would want one of a) a star SG, b) a decent C (lets hope other GMs still think Beans is decent, especially playing in the East), or c) expiring contracts. Between Monta, Beans, Vlad/Gadz/BW you'd think we have the pieces to get a deal done.

    And I'd like to get Iggy more than Wallace. Iggy's more of a pure perimeter player and can legitimately play SG because hes got a great handle. Hes a much better on-ball defender as well, Coach K always put him on the toughest matchup in the FIBA tourney because he can guard 1-4's. But obviously he can also score and I think he'd do well playing next to Curry, hes an excellent rebounder and passes well. Long term you can switch him around between the 2 and 3 depending on who else falls into our laps and in a pinch he can play PG or PF. He can't score like Monta but I think when you consider his impact on defense, rebounding, efficiency, his size, making teammates better plus hes still an 18 ppg type of player it would be a net positive impact. And most importantly its a step toward making the team a contender. Hes big, athletic, plays excellent defense, team oriented, but also not bad on offense. Thats the type of guy you want on a championship team.

    I've always loved Nocioni's game too and we could use a tough/crafty/annoying player like him on our squad. Another great defender, decent offense, can shoot, rebounds well.

    Again, don't know what Philly wants but I think we have the pieces to get Iggy no matter what they're thinking. Will anyone offer any better C than Beans for Iggy? They certainly won't get any better player than Monta and given the disparity in their current stocks' we should actually get Iggy + a decent player back. We've got the expirings too but that limits our flexibility later on. But it would also mean we'd be keeping Monta and probably Beans giving us Curry, Monta, Iggy, Lee, Beans with Reggie, DWright, Lou, etc. off the bench which is decent. But I don't want to get locked in to a fringe playoff team long term...
     
  9. AlleyOop

    AlleyOop JBB JustBBall Member

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    That's a great point BJM. I think that's what I'm getting at... with Monta at the SG, this team will be, AT BEST, a fringe team. Can a team really ever be a contender with him at SG? It would take the right pieces, and GS doesn't have 'em.

    Curry? yes. Lee? yes. A bench with Law/Lou/Williams/Wright/Udoh/... well, it's a start. But contenders are built on team play, and defense, and an Iggy/Monta swap would go a long way toward improving that. Right now, value-wise, Monta should be a better value. Monta/Iggy is a bit lopsided (at least market wise), which is why I think the Vlad/Nocioni part balances it out. This seems realistic for both teams, and I think Iggy would compliment Curry so well...
     
  10. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Agree with you on all points. But knowing that Monta has the higher value right now I'd do what I could to make that trade without moving Vlad. I'd want that cap space in the offseason.
     
  11. Kaydow

    Kaydow Well-Known Member

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    From a Blazer fan perspective - you shouldn't move Ellis unless you get a top 10-15 player back in the deal. I watched the whole game. What did Ellis have at the half, 3 points? He caught fire in the 3rd and kept GS in the game when everybody else was ice cold. He ended up with 26. Sure, GS started their run in the 4th after Monte picked up his 5th foul (and went to the bench). But it was Rodney Carney, Reggie Williams, and Vlad Rodma draining 3s all the sudden. It's not like the offense turned into a well oiled machine. Then Ellis comes back in, team still down 10, and he makes 6 FT's in the final 5 minutes, and then has a shot to win it at the end. One thing I'll admit is that Portland Fans were AMAZED that he elected to shoot a jumper on that final play. He had Lamarcus guarding him on the switch, and he could have gone right around him and got to the line. None the less, it was Ellis we were all scared of. He's the playmaker . . . for better or worse. Trust me, with Brandon Roy's career basically being over - Blazer fans are seeing what it's like to play without a top tier playmaker. The offense sputters in the half court every night. There is no one-on-one force to bail us out of possessions when things aren't flowing. Be careful what you wish for with Ellis. He's one of a few guys in the league that can get his own shot anytime he wants, and he's only 25 years old. Remember that your team has been one of the most injury riddled teams over the last couple of years (right up there with Portland). And your schedule has been brutal so far. But if you're not convinced, why don't you send Ellis to Portland for Brandon Roy? We'd gladly take that.
     
  12. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    The Bulls need an SG. We'd take him! :)
     
  13. i hate the warriors

    i hate the warriors Slingboxing from LONDON

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    I have to agree with what Kaydow is saying. I would be in favor of getting Iggy but I'd rather keep Monta and run Ig at the 3, bringing DWright in as the 6th man. I would prefer to deal Biedrins and anybody else...and I don't like saying that, because I've always had a soft spot for Biedrins. I think we'd be pretty nasty with a currry/ellis/iggy/lee/(lou/gadz/udoh) lineup for the time being. Then we can set our sights on landing a quality 5, which I realize is sooo much easier said than done. Maybe I'm being unrealistic?? I do think that Monta could be a starter on a contender, but just not the first option, and not without some good defenders to back him up. And like the saying goes, defense is about will, not skill. I still think that a change in attitude/philosophy could turn Monta into an adequate defender...not a GREAT defender, but definitely not weak. But we can't take for granted that we have one of the best scorers in the NBA right now...he truly can get his shot off almost any time he wants. He's showed an improvement in maturity and attitude this season, and if that continues, I'm personally happy to have him around for a few years. AlleyOop, I respectfully disagree with you regarding Monta being a poor value...who could we get to replace him that wouldn't be getting paid more than him?
     
  14. Doctor Kajita

    Doctor Kajita Active Member

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    Give us Noah! Gimpy and all.
     
  15. AlleyOop

    AlleyOop JBB JustBBall Member

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    My reasoning comes after watching every televised Warrior game for the last 11 years. I've watched every game of Monta Ellis' career over the last 6 years. When he was a 2nd round rookie, ad nobody had heard of him, I was quietly telling my friends around town to watch out for this kid. At the rookie/soph game, when the announcers didn't even know who he was, I sat and chuckled as he pogo-sticked about 12 alley-oop dunks over the course of the game. He looked like a superhero that night. The other team looked like little children.

    I've always loved Monta's heart and his athleticism. My point is this: when he was with Baron, he looked a lot better. First off, Baron was big enough to switch and guard the SG. And because Baron was the established alpha-male, Monta accepted his role off-ball, and he flourished. Constant cuts. Rolling off screens for 15 footers. Alley oops galore. And running out to start his 1-man fast break.

    However, times have changed. Last year, he was tagged to be the franchise player. They wanted the ball in his hands for 40 minutes a night. This is where his game took a turn, I believe. Yes, he is an amazing and-1 scorer. Who wouldn't realize that? He's like the matrix out there. He's the only guy in the league that can triple-pump and still score, lol. He's awesome.

    But my problem is with his new role. He should not be the PG. We have a new franchise PG. Stephen Curry. I am convinced he is a cornerstone to build toward a contender. If you subscribe to this notion, then you have to decide what to do with Ellis. Well, the Warriors seem to believe the same thing, because in the offseason they made a lot of effort to convince Monta he was no longer PG, that he could go back to playing off-ball, not have to do so much, etc.

    And for the first 8 games, yes, it looked so good. Monta a new man. Monta a team player. Great body language. Great chemistry. Deferring to Steph. Finding the open man.

    However, things have regressed. In part because of Curry's injury. But it began to regress before that, IMO. Yes, they have had a brutal schedule. But is that an excuse? It shouldn't be if you want to build a contender.

    Monta's game has changed in the last 12 or so games. He's trying to put the team on his shoulders, which is commendable. But it's beginning to expose the situation in GS. Yes, his scoring is very high, but he's playing 40 minutes a night and taking the most shots and he has the green light and everyone else just stands around and watches him. It's points, but it's not wins.

    Three things:

    1) everyone standing around watching Monta go and-1 mix tape, for better or for worse

    2) defense is beginning to look atrocious

    3) the chemistry that Smart keeps talking about seems like a lie; they look confused out there, they hang their heads and seem to blame others for miscues

    So, my reasoning is this: Curry is my cornerstone. So who fits with Curry? Well, Monta fit with Baron well because of the reasons stated above. But he doesn't fit with Curry, and right now he's not making his teammates better.

    I want an SG that is big enough to provide strong defense on the perimeter, and stop the easy penetration. I want an SG that can contribute inmany different ways and does not need to dominate the ball (so that Curry can dominate the ball instead). For these reasons, as much as I love Monta Ellis, I don't see it working long term, as a contender, with Curry/Ellis. I see it as fringe at best.

    So, who comes to mind? Ah, I know. I have the perfect solution. Andre Igoudala.
     
  16. jason bourne

    jason bourne JBB JustBBall Member

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    Wallace can score in bunches and you don't have to feed him the ball. He'll get his on the open floor. Don't forget about Dorell Wright. I'm mighty impressed with his play of late. His shooting in not efficient, but he's hitting from the arc. I like to see how he does when he gets more time to shoot. The guy can shoot over people and an awesome perimeter defender, too. If we played a more wide open and team passing game, then that should open it up for David Lee to score. Scoring is the problem because of the slow down style that Smart has installed. I'm ready to get rid of Smart. Give Sichting a chance!

    I guess I'm outvoted on Iggy. He's a bit inconsistent in the scoring department for my taste, but he is another solid defender, can handle the rock and can play the two. Maybe he'd be a more consistent and efficient scorer in the run and gun. Yeah, okay. I'll buy in, but I'd trade Monta, not AB. I can't see Ellis and Iggy co-existing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2010
  17. jason bourne

    jason bourne JBB JustBBall Member

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    Here's my ultimate plan:
    PG - Curry
    SG - Iggy
    SF - DWright
    PF - DLee
    C - Dwight

    That's a championship team and it would set us up so Dwight would consider coming here! But get us a winning coach, too!
     
  18. AlleyOop

    AlleyOop JBB JustBBall Member

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    Interesting article by Steinmetz calling out the combined back-court of Curry/Ellis. They have the worst assist/turnover ratio of any back-court in the league!

    http://www.csnbayarea.com/12/20/10/Steinmetz-Questioning-the-Warriors-backc/landing_steinmetz_v3.html?blockID=376825&feedID=5882

    Individually, they are both not good right now. Curry is 1.75, while Monta is 1.5. Both not good. But Iggy would change that. What? You didn't know? Iggy gets more assists than either of these guys!

    Monta: 5.1 APG, 3.4 TO, 1.42 Ratio http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=2751

    Curry: 5.6 APG, 3.2 TO, 1.75 Ratio http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=3975

    Iggy: 5.7 APG, 1.8 TO, 3.2 Ratiohttp://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=2386

    Iggy's averaging 5.7 assists as an SG, and his turnovers are half of either of our players. His assist/turnover ratio is double Curry and Ellis, lol. Plus he's getting 15 points and 6.4 rebounds! Oh, and he's one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. An instant fix next to curry. Better all around contributor. The excellent defender to pair with Curry. An explosive finisher and rebounder. Does not need to dominate the ball. Passes well.

    I think David Lee, for example, would be a lot happier working off of Iggy, than watching Monta ignore him and try to go and-1 every time.
     
  19. Doctor Kajita

    Doctor Kajita Active Member

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    I'm not convinced that Iggy is the answer, especially with his contract. I would rather have Gerald Wallace. Trade Monta for Crash and insert Reggie at the starting 2 and bench that inefficient chucker D. Wright. I have a problem with D. Wright because he is so soft going to the rim. He has a great pump fake but nothing ever materializes from it, except a useless pass to the perimeter.
     
  20. OSUBlazerfan

    OSUBlazerfan Writing Team

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    We will take Monta.....

    Pryzbilla and Rudy for Monta :)
     

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