2011 NBA Trade Deadline Thread

Discussion in 'Golden State Warriors' started by jason bourne, Feb 5, 2011.

  1. AlleyOop

    AlleyOop JBB JustBBall Member

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    Warriors need to gt rid of Monta Ellis ASAP. He is a lazy defender, and kind of brain-dead on defense too. Doesn't run back. Stands and watches. Doesn't see man-ball. Gives up countless back-door cuts. Goes for steals. Doesn't stay in front of his man. Leaks out. Doesn't box out. Gives up countless offensive boards. After the first "wave" of action, he stands flat-footed and watches.

    Yes he scores, but net impact on both sides of the ball is bad. His overall value is so over-inflated IMO. He's looking more and more like Mags to me.

    Frankly, I'll take anything decent for Monta. GS needs to move on and give it all to Curry. I'll take Reggie Williams starting at SG if need be...

    My new stance is: what can you give me for Monta.
     
  2. philsmith75

    philsmith75 JBB JustBBall Member

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    One should never give up a backdoor layup, ever (unless your teammate fails to call out a back pick.)
     
  3. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    I think you're underrating Nene, Alley Oop. You have to go beyond stats, especially with guys who play on good teams. Hes an excellent finisher, hes a legitimate option in the post, hes very big, athletic, space eater. Perkins doesn't gobble up rebounds either but his impact is undeniable. Nene isn't as good a defender as Perk but hes decent and hes got the size you want to compete with the best teams. Bynum isn't a good rebounder for his size either and hes not as good a defender as Perk nor as good a finisher as Nene but go ask the Lakers how fun playoff basketball is without him. The gaudy rebounding numbers just aren't there that often on the best teams. A 6'11 250+ lbs. athletic C who can physically match up with the Lakers, Celts, Bulls, Duncan, Dwight, etc. is a big piece to the puzzle. Unless you've got Duncan, Shaq, or Dwight, you better have a big girthy C coupled with a good PF; think Lakers, Celts, Big Ben/Rasheed, CWebb/Divac. Currently the Bulls are trying Noah/Boozer and Dallas is trying Chandler/Dirk, we'll see how those tandems do but they're looking like the next best thing as far as contenders go after the usual suspects (Lakers, Celts, Magic, Spurs).

    If hes available then jump at the opportunity to get him. If Lacob agrees with us and sees Monta as not a piece to a championship team and agrees with me that Nene is/could be a C on a championship team then jump at it. You're getting a HUGE piece. You've gotta do it IMO. Monta's value is at an all time high. Its trading small for big. SGs are not hard to find in the NBA. I say if Nene is available you offer everything but Curry.
     
  4. jason bourne

    jason bourne JBB JustBBall Member

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    I agree with what Run BJM just said (well, maybe not trading Monta). If you put Nene on the Warriors, then he would be scoring and rebounding more and doing what it takes for the team to win. He could be the second or third option on the Warriors. On Denver, he's close to being the fourth option.

    Second, here's an example of why the Golden State Warriors aren't that good right "now." If we combined the rosters of the Denver Nuggets (30 - 23, 7th position and in playoffs) and Warriors (23 - 28, 12th and out of playoffs), then we would get a starting lineup that is something like this:
    PG - Chauncey Billups
    SG - Monta Ellis
    C - Nene
    PF - David Lee
    SF - Carmelo Anthony

    Even the bench would be represented more by Nuggets than Warriors. Probably DWright, Curry, Beans, Reggie and Udoh would make it. They may leave Beans out because of his contract though :cool:.

    Clearly, one can see that the Warriors do not have the talent that the playoff teams have. Until our players can step up in crunch time to give the team more of a chance to win, we'll always be on the outside as good teams improve every year.

    As for rebounds, AB gets boards because he gets more offensive boards and not defensive. If he was getting more defensive boards, then he would be playing in crunch time. I think he's part of the reason why the Warriors are near the bottom in rebounding differential.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011
  5. Clif10

    Clif10 Member

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    Reggie Williams is probably a worse defender than Ellis. Lee is horrible at defense. Curry is a bad defender and has been very lazy leading to turnovers. May as well get rid of all these players while we are at it. Wright being so weak at the rim is unacceptable. Get rid of him too.

    Adding Nene would be like adding Dampier again. I say no to that. Udoh did well against him. May as well develop him before breaking the core and adding a big future financial piece that could jeopardize cap flexibility just for Nene.

    As far as being clutch, this team has won a lot of close games. I think they have shown a great deal of clutch especially since the new year.

    If the team makes a stringer effort as a group to control the glass then I think we will be where we want to be. And yes that will need to include Ellis and others helping there more than always leaking for fast break points. Control the glass first, then go.
     
  6. philsmith75

    philsmith75 JBB JustBBall Member

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    Gary St. Jean (guest color last night) hit it on the head last night, if you're not going to get the rebound at least put a body on someone. Warriors give up way too many offensive rebounds. It lack of discipline, lack of effort, pure and simple. Its disheartening to watch frankly.

    Warriors got lucky, it was almost a perfect storm last night, stupid Nuggets (how many times can you fumble the ball and give up a fast break on the other end?), and unbelievable long distance shooting (Dorell and Reggie were firing from 28 ft without hesitation).
     
  7. CohanHater

    CohanHater JBB JustBBall Member

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    Barry really made great points last night as well. It's not only about scoring, it's about making the other team play defense. I know a lot of people don't like him, but he knows his hoops.
     
  8. jason bourne

    jason bourne JBB JustBBall Member

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    Barry made some biting comments and I think he was referring to someone forcing the shot and shooting it off balance at the time. Was it Monta? He thought those kind of shots could let the other team back in the game and sure enough Denver came back. The trouble with both Rick and Garry St Jean is people start tuning them out after listening them go on and on. If the team wins, then all is ducky. If the team starts losing, then their banter starts to get irritating.

    But here's what I got about Nene from 82games.com. He's like their fifth clutch performer after Anthony, Billups, Afflalo and Lawson.

    http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM

    Nene's production is good, too, as it ranks second to Anthony. I'm not that big on using +/- ratings because it depends on who you're playing with.

    http://www.82games.com/1011/1011DEN.HTM
     
  9. Doctor Kajita

    Doctor Kajita Active Member

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    "How does he live with himself?" - Rick Barry referencing Biedrins' free throw shooting and not wanting to try underhanded free throws. LOL
     
  10. AlleyOop

    AlleyOop JBB JustBBall Member

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    Yeah, I've always been hard on the Hall of Famer but he had some awesome comments last night, also ripped into GS defense a few times... and yes I've also always had a sour spot for the Saint after his disastrous run as GM, but he has had some great comments too. Critical comments. Which are needed.

    Barry had a comment essentially about how Carmelo keeps his triple threat position and uses the jab-step as another threat. How is it that a fundamental skill like this, one that every highschool player should be taught as the first golden rule of a face-up game... how is it so rare these days...that it actually needs to be pointed out and applauded... what kind of knucklehead guard would actually think it's okay to get the basketball, face-up the basket, but then just start dribbling for fun, doing random dribble moves, just to try to figure out what they might want to do with the ball to make something happen!?!?! Oh wait, the majority of NBA perimeter players... wtf...

    The game is changing, and I'm kind of getting sick of it. In the last month or so I've really started to lose my taste for the NBA. Of course great players have always wanted to be the best. And be recognized. But, little by little, the shift is moving away from the team game and toward the individual. More and more about ego. Where are the selfless players?

    And Run, you're totally right about Nene and judging him by his numbers... maybe he is a lot more effective than his numbers show.

    I've also changed my tune on Manu Ginobli. I said he shouldn't be an all-star because his numbers are nowhere near the other SGs in the west...

    but looking at Monta and Ginobli... oh man it's night and day... Ginobli is SO an all-star and Monta is SO not an all-star, it's ridiculous. I don't know what spell I was under, but it has been broken. Numbers do not mean everything. Ginobli is such a great team-player, feisty defender, and has such a sense for the right play at the right time... you know, the way the game is supposed to be played...

    Yes, I've changed my stance on Nene, too, especially after watching him last night. On paper, it doesn't make sense. However, in the game of basketball, it makes perfect sense. I would do Monta for Nene right now, yes.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011
  11. Doctor Kajita

    Doctor Kajita Active Member

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    Yup, Ginobili is one of the best players in the league.
     
  12. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Yeah it used to drive me nuts how Ginobili would make it over other guys with better numbers but I totally get it now. He annoys the piss out of me but hes a winner. His impact is tremendous, maybe the best SG of the generation behind Kobe.
     
  13. jason bourne

    jason bourne JBB JustBBall Member

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    Jeez, the ghost of Marcus Williams. Affects our ability to make trades using our first round pick in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015.

    As the Warriors creep closer to the trade deadline — and no closer to the playoffs — there’s one question that hangs over all armchair-GM plans for upgrading this team: what should the Warriors offer? Depending on your take on the team-as-currently-composed’s prospects, the answer to that question may range from Monta Ellis to Jeremy Lin. But there are five things that can’t be included in the discussion: the Warriors’ first round draft picks in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015.

    On July 22, 2008, the Warriors acquired Marcus Williams in exchange for a conditional first-round draft pick. In fairness to Chris Mullin, the deal needs some context. Baron Davis had just jumped ship for the Clippers, leaving the Warriors without a true point guard. Williams had been on the All Rookie second team and was available given New Jersey’s depth at 1. The Warriors had won nearly 50 games in the prior season and expected to be in the playoff hunt the next year (this is pre-moped), meaning the conditional pick would likely be in the high teens, not the lottery. That said, a first rounder for an unproven, potentially disruptive player is a gamble (albeit one I favored taking at the time). Williams arrived out of shape, was completely undisciplined on the court and quickly fell out of Don Nelson’s rotation. The Warriors cut him on March 10, 2009 — superficially closing the book on one of Mullin’s worst transactions. And the deal was only going to get worse.

    Under the original trade, the first pick that could go to the Nets was the Warriors’ 2011 first rounder, lottery protected. But then in September 2009, the team sent its 2011 second round pick to the Nets to bump the first potential year for the trade back a year to 2012 (with lower lottery restrictions). Because of the NBA’s rule requiring teams to have a first round pick in at least every other draft, the second trade freed the team up to swap its 2010 pick. Had the NJ pick come due in 2011, the 2010 pick could not have been traded. Of course, despite the “win now” objective motivating the second NJ deal, Larry Riley sat on his hands last trade deadline and ended up keeping the 2010 pick. So the flexibility purchased with the second round pick ended up being wasted, like so many assets collected during the Cohan era.

    But the saga of the conditional pick still wasn’t over. Under the new deal, the Warriors are committed to sending the 2012 pick to NJ if it’s not in the top 7. If it is, the 2013 pick comes due, top 6 protected. If that pick doesn’t get moved, the 2014 pick goes, also top 6 protected. If the Warriors don’t ship that pick, then New Jersey gets the Warriors’ second rounders in 2014 and 2016.

    This complex chain of contingencies leads to one very simple conclusion for the Warriors this trade deadline — all first rounders from 2011 to 2015 are off the table. The killer restriction for the Warriors is the back-to-back rule, prohibiting the trading of first rounders in consecutive years. The 2011 pick can’t be traded because the 2012 pick could be shipped out to NJ. The 2013 pick can’t be traded because if the Warriors get one of the top 7 picks in 2012, the 2013 pick will be owed to the Nets. And so on and so on, until you get to 2015. Although that pick isn’t owed to the Nets, the 2014 pick might end up being traded, barring the Warriors from moving the pick one year after it. At some point the pick will get traded to the Nets (my guess would be 2012), freeing the team of the restrictions on the back-end years. But for now, the picks are all locked up.

    The bottom line? In a year when the trade value of expiring deals has been reduced by uncertainty regarding the CBA and a glut of options on the market, a first round pick would have been a nice sweetener to add to the deal. But as a result of the Marcus Williams trade, we’ve not only lost the ability to trade the 2011 pick — but also the four picks that come after it. And we paid a 2011 second rounder for the privilege.


    And if you made it all the way down here through this multi-car pile-up of a transaction, all I can say is this: being a Warriors fan is not easy.


    http://blogs.mercurynews.com/warriors/2011/02/08/the-ghost-of-marcus-williams/
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2011
  14. Zhone

    Zhone JBB JustBBall Member

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    We should have just given them the 2011 pick. It'll likely end up that we'll give up a late lottery pick in 2012 (we also won't have a 2nd round pick in 2012 either). At least we won't give away our picks, but in the short run it makes it a lot harder to move the expiring contracts we have for anything worthwhile.

    We can always trade the player after we draft/sign them too, just not the pick itself, so offseason work can be done, but we're stuck in the mud this season.
     
  15. jason bourne

    jason bourne JBB JustBBall Member

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    This really sucks. I may have posted this in another thread, but the Warriors are capped out (click below), so they really need to make trades with the "expirings" the Warriors have. Can we give New Jersey another second rounder or cash to take the 2011 lottery protected (sarcasm)?

    http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawaka...7m-in-expirings/comment-page-2/#comment-80970

    This kind of thing really riles me up. It makes me think Larry Riley is a flunky because a "real" GM wouldn't do something like this. Maybe Joe Lacob should look at Steve Kerr or Kevin Pritchard.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2011
  16. jason bourne

    jason bourne JBB JustBBall Member

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    What about this deal? ESPN rumor had OKC wanting Andris Biedrins and Lou Amundson for Nenad Krstic and Morris Peterson (both expiring). We give them AB and Charlie Bell instead and we trade Krstic and Peterson to the LA Clips for Chris Kaman. Kaman will be an expiring next season and could be used as trade bait for Nene :cool:.
     
  17. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Dunno what the hell is going on with the Murphy trade. It seems to have legs and could be completed regardless of a Melo deal. First it was reported as being close, then Riley said its false, now more writers are saying they keep hearing about it.

    Steinmentz seems to think that Murphy wouldn't even show up here, there would be an immediate buyout. I personally would want him on the team. We need all the production we can get at the 4/5. Murphy can really shoot it and clear the defensive glass. Just last year he was putting up 15/10 in Indy on 47% FG and 38% from 3. We all know the defense and inside game is awful but IMO given our current bench its hard to say no to adding a guy who can clear the glass and come in and provide a consistent scoring threat. Throw a Murphy/Udoh 4/5 into the game and I could see that tandem holding their own and providing quality minutes off the bench.

    Steinmentz on Murphy deal:
    http://www.csnbayarea.com/02/19/11/..._steinmetz_v3.html?blockID=413994&feedID=5986

    And a bit more from Slam:
    http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/02/troy-murphy-still-heading-to-golden-state/
     
  18. AlleyOop

    AlleyOop JBB JustBBall Member

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    Terrible idea to get Murph, IMO. I think Radmonovic is a more valuable piece, player for player, on this roster. His numbers aren't as good career wise, but they're way better this season. And, out of nowhere he's been defending, and playing tough. And he can play SF/PF depending...

    But the main thing, IMO, is Murphy's contract he makes $12 mils this year. Yes, he's expiring, but that means you have to give up $12 mils the other way.

    So, what, you give up some of your exp. contracts, for this exp. contract? Can't we do better than to simply swap expiring contracts with a team?

    Is Murphy going to push this team into the POs... I'd have to say no. He's had good number years in the past, but he's been awful in New Jersey... the guy has played 18 games, 16 minutes per game.. he's shooting 34% FG, 17% 3ptFG, and 53% FT...

    For instance, Vlad+BWright for Murphy works numbers wise. But why? Why give up on Wright, and give up the "good" presence that Vlad has been, to rent a player who has either lost all motivation to play hard in NJ or else has plain lost the ability to throw the ball into the ocean... I mean, this is a contract year for him too... and he's shooting 17% from three? 4PPG and 4RPG... his agent must be having a nervous breakdown...

    If anything, if Riley can't get something better done, I'd rather not touch the chemistry GS has going, and I'd rather just let Gadz/Vlad/Wright expire at the end of the season and then test free agency...

    I mean, at the rate Troy Murphy is playing, we could just wait until summer and then sign him for $2 mils a year. That's even a bit pricey IMO.

    Murphy is a poor-man's trade. That's a Gary St. Jean trade, a Robert Rowell trade... Riley's better than that... I hope.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2011
  19. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    All recent reports are indicating that it would be Gadz and B. Wright for Murphy and a second round pick. No Vlad included and we get a 2nd rounder back. Gadz and BW combine for a 10.5 mil salary and Murphy makes 12 mils. We trade two guys who don't play for a guy who's more likely to give us some production and a second round pick. Obviously you'd rather make a move for a higher impact player but the market seems extraordinarily sterile this year. If there's nothing else out there then at least with this move you're giving up nothing and potentially gaining a productive bench player and a 2nd round pick. Its a relatively minor gain but it comes at zero cost. Why not do it?

    I agree that I wouldn't trade Rad though. He does well at SF and we have no one else to fill in there. If we had Murphy we wouldn't have to see Rad at PF since Murphy can spread the floor but he'll rebound much better.

    Hopefully we can make a bigger move but based on the rumors and reports there isn't much going on outside of the Melo sweepstakes. Seems like every team has as much or more expiring contracts as we do and with the CBA coming up teams aren't jumping at the chance to add an expensive but decent player for those expirings.
     
  20. AlleyOop

    AlleyOop JBB JustBBall Member

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    That's where I disagree. I think you are giving up something in that. I, for one, think Brandan Wright still has a future. This is only his 3rd year. He played 38 games his first year (only 10 minutes per), and then 39 games last year (18 minutes per). This year, 21 games.

    Yes, he's had significant injuries. But they've been pretty freak. I'm not willing to label him injury prone. Now that he's back, boy to me he looks healthy. And long. Athletic. And I don't see him playing timid. I mean, he's not bruising in there, but he's still dunking and going for it. He's doing all the right things to develop some trust from ownership, in his limited minutes.

    Really, I place a pretty high value on him. I think GS should give him a lot more run (I've really liked watching Wright/Udoh together).

    Some argue that GS would be "auditioning him for another team." But the reality is, someone has to audition him... if he starts producing, well then we can try to bring him back.

    I don't have any excitement about a 1-year Murphy rental. He was a stat-padder here. He would box his own teammates out just to get a defensive board. He'd also play zero defense, forcing Foyle to guard 2 guys, and then he'd collect the easy D rebound when it was there. If you go for blocks and try to contest shots, you're not always in position for the board. It started to become a recurring pattern with Murph -- he was always ready for the board because he was doing nothing on defense. I remember being very relieved when he was shipped off.

    I always get trade fever around this time. But this year, I'm like "meh." This team, suddenly out of nowhere, has started to get chemistry rolling and a defensive attitude rolling. If anything, standing pat may be better than just settling for whatever move is there.
     

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