Derrick Rose out for the postseason with torn ACL

Discussion in 'Chicago Bulls' started by Denny Crane, Apr 28, 2012.

  1. such sweet thunder

    such sweet thunder Member Staff Member Moderator

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    My sadness is giving way to anger. I think I'm on to the next stage.

    Look, I understand where K4E is coming from. But Thibodeau was downright dismissive of the importance of rest all season. His approach was underscored by the idea that players need to learn how to be productive when injured. He pressured Rip Hamilton into a preseason game before he was ready, and it resulted in an injury that wiped out a good portion of his season. He played Derrick Rose in that game against the Hornets when it was clear from tipoff that Rose wasn't ready, and that led to a spiral of increasingly more serious injuries. He laughed off the idea of Deng playing too many minutes, by arguing that his overall number of minutes on the season were low. (This is particularly absurd to me. The guy's total number of minutes on the season were low because he sustained a serious injury. Isn't that a sign that perhaps you should roll back his playing time?)

    I also don't buy the argument that the blame falls all on the medical and training staffs, or that it could fall on the players for not being prepared to play a season without training camp. It's the coaches job to play the cards that he is dealt. A coach has to make independent judgments on every facet of the game and cannot use a green light from a training staff to do whatever the hell he wants -- otherwise you'll end up right where we are now.

    I just watched a thirty-seven year old Tim Duncan execute a spin move outside of the paint, dash toward the hoop and dunk in traffic. You're never going to find a clean evidence for or against Thibodeau's approach to injuries this season because there are so many variables, but this is as close as we're going to get.

    One hard-nosed coach was completely dismissive of the importance of the regular season, gave his players ample rest, and now they're playing their best ball of the season.

    The other hard-nosed coach was completely dismissive of the health of his players. His three all-stars were injured over the course of the season, and now injuries have completely marginalized his team.

    I hope this kills the debate over which one of those hard-nosed coaches deserves coach of the year.
     
  2. truebluefan

    truebluefan Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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  3. truebluefan

    truebluefan Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Didnt Tim Haraway come back from a similar image? He didn't have the same explosiveness, but similar numbers nonetheless
     
  4. truebluefan

    truebluefan Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I agree with your idea of picking up the option on CJ. That will happen due to Derricks injury.

    Derrick should stay off next season because if he does come back, he wont be 100% Granted Derrick Rose at 70% i still better than a lot of guards in this league, however, the important thing for him and the future of this franchise is the years to come for Derrick and to be all he can be.
     
  5. JayJohnstone

    JayJohnstone Active Member

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    I am so depressed.

    p.s CJ's option should have been picked up anyway.
     
  6. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    I am in SST's camp, but it remains to be seen if it is Thibs' decision entirely. When I played, my coach told us to ask to come out when we couldn't give 100%. Did rose express any discomfort? Did management tell Thibs to play him until he dropped?

    Is Thibs really so stubborn about playing his stars big minutes after the games are decided?

    Deng has been dinged up a lot in his career. He's got a big contract. The upside of playing him is he earns his contract (make up for missed games), and he pads his stats against 2nd teams and in garbage time (make the all star team!).

    But I don't see why Brewer or Korver couldn't be out there for 4 minutes more a game so Luol doesn't have to log 42 minutes.

    I remember the Bears had a great RBI once. They had him return kicks and punts, and on a middling team at best. He blew out his knee and his career and greatness cut short. We remembered Sayers when the Bears insisted on having Walter Payton return kicks and punts, too.

    Bulls are a different team, but the memory should be a lesson anyhow.

    So is Rose making MAX contract to play MAX minutes, or can we be satisfied to rest him up for next game once this game is in hand? Play our best when the game is on the line, of course.
     
  7. JayJohnstone

    JayJohnstone Active Member

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    It is pure neligence after Rose had some many leg injuries this one season if they didn't do this type of evaluation. Similar to what the Suns staff does. Can we get KC Johnson or someone to ask this question of Bulls mgmt?
     
  8. JayJohnstone

    JayJohnstone Active Member

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    One other thing that I wish I knew is if this type of injury is a fluke or was the ligament likely damaged and would have gone soon if it didn't go at the end of this game.
     
  9. FatJerry

    FatJerry Member

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    If it was strained this would have been picked up so I doubt it.

    This seems more like inadequate conditioning / muscle deterioration where his body didn't move and react the way it should have when fatigue set in

    This absolutely is on the medical , training and coaching staff

    Rose had been pulling up lamely on a few plays with about 5m to go in the 4th quarter.

    It's one thing to have a warrior culture

    There is a fine line between this and an irresponsibility that fucks careers and sinks franchises

    Its clear to me that he shouldn't have been playing .....in the Philly series ....maybe even not in he Boston / Atlanta series on the assumption we made it to the 2nd round

    This way you likely take away the excuse "it could have happened at any time"

    Ths is such utter bullshit

    There is no reason an injury like that should happen to a professional athlete in the way it happened ( without contact and where player was going at say three quarter pace )

    None
     
  10. rosenthall

    rosenthall Well-Known Member

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    Million dollar question.
     
  11. such sweet thunder

    such sweet thunder Member Staff Member Moderator

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    The narrative forming in the national media seems to be that blame should be placed on the overloaded schedule and not Thibodeau. I don't see how you can blame one without blaming the other.

    Popvice made the overloaded schedule into a regular schedule for his players, or at least as close as possible, by periodically sitting his players and severely limiting minutes. Thibodeau could have done the same.
     
  12. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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    Isn't there a difference between how you manage an old timer like Duncan and how you handle a 23 year old player?

    When Duncan was 23, did he play low minutes and get multiple nights off?

    Seems like most of the other players held up OK. Boozer played every game. Noah looks good. Deng looks OK. There are going to be injuries in any season.
     
  13. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Boozer and Noah were injury prone last season. They got significantly reduced MPG this season. Boozer < 30, Noah right about 30.
     
  14. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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    It looks like from a MPG perspective, Rose, Noah and Boozer were all at about 2 minutes per game less this season than last season.
     
  15. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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    Also interesting to see how Derrick stacked up from a MPG perspective.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/minutes/sort/avgMinutes/seasontype/2/qualified/false

    He's 24th in the league.

    Lots of negligent coaches out there.

    Granted, Derrick was on and off injured this season. I don't get all the finger pointing and blame going on here. Yes, something terrible happened. But the causality is tough to prove. I was on board with the way they brought Derrick back. I wanted the Bulls to win the NBA championship this season and this was a good season to go for it. That's why he's on the team. That's why he's paid the money. They were resting him down the stretch. Even in Saturday's game, he seems to be playing much more under control and avoiding contact than his traditional play. Why is he going at it hard down the stretch like that? Some of it falls on him too I guess.

    I guess the decision came down to shelving him for the whole season, letting him rest a couple more weeks or just not playing him many minutes. But I think we all know that if the Bulls were to win the title this year we needed a fearless Derrick Rose ready to go to battle with the Heats and the Thunders of the world. And Derrick clearly needed more time on the court and to be closing out games to get comfortable with the action again, based on how he looked at the end of the season.

    I don't think if Thibs rested Derrick the last three minutes of the game that his knee would be less likely to blow out. Those contact free injuries are tough to game like that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
  16. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Guys' minutes should be down for three reasons: 1) depth (guys who can use the PT and do just fine), 2) now that we don't have Bogans, we're winning handily and the bench should be playing more garbage time minutes, and 3) so they don't get hurt while playing garbage time minutes.
     
  17. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Nobody's talking causality here, just the risk of having him out there when he didn't need to be was pretty huge and obvious. I mean, the guy has missed half the regular season due to nagging injuries and hadn't played two 40 minute games in a row in months. Seriously, why not play him 24 minutes and see how he felt the day after?
     
  18. JayJohnstone

    JayJohnstone Active Member

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    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/page/PERDiem-120430/nba-good-bad-ugly
    Hollinger (Insider)

    He references this article (free) which is good:

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...GAME?SITE=OHWOO&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

     
  19. JayJohnstone

    JayJohnstone Active Member

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    Still not sure where I am on this still..but....It has never seemed like a fireable offense like some are stating.
     
  20. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Out of curiosity, who is suggesting it is a fireable offense?
     

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