Game Thread 2020 Debate Part 3 - Sept 12

agree 100% about congress not working because of the kill the other side partisan approach. I want to see a candidate try and mediate and conciliate for bi partisan compromise and just working together. I like Klobachar reaching out to those like me that are independent/libertarian lean, moderates to support her because she will represent them. Joe does too, somewhat. He is low on energy and I don't blame him, that many years in politics would pickle one.
I am frustrated too, but I have been for the last 30 plus years since our Gov made it so hard on business in general here, they moved off shore, which supported the globalist goal.
I just want a lean and mean government, that is managed properly with fiscal checks and balances.

 

I wouldn't want a government like Japan that basically owns/subsidizes business (HUGE-Mitsubusi Heavy Ind-Toyota etc.) versus a more capitalistic approach with free/mix enterprise.
South Korea does as well.
Do you want Government owning airlines, mills, auto makers here?

 

Yep, the government owned GM. That's how they saved their butts. Without that we'd have massive unemployment.
The government also owned Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac as well as FHA.
Should the government own everything? Of course not, nor should they own most everything. Some things they need to own. I think they should own and operate most health care.
Do you recall the stink the far Right made about Medicare and Medicaid? Turned out to be the best thing since sliced bread.

 

No they're not, at least if you're really talking about socialism as it is correctly defined:

"a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole."

To quote Forbes:

"To the extent that the left wants to point to an example of successful socialism, not just generous welfare states, the Nordic countries are actually a poor case to cite. Regardless of the perception, in reality the Nordic countries practice mostly free market economics paired with high taxes exchanged for generous government entitlement programs.

First, it is worth noting that the Nordic counties were economic successes before they built their welfare states. Those productive economies, generating good incomes for their workers, allowed the governments to raise the tax revenue needed to pay for the social benefits. It was not the government benefits that created wealth, but wealth that allowed the luxury of such generous government programs.

Second, as evidence of the lack of government interference in business affairs, there is the fact that none of these countries have minimum wage laws. Unions are reasonably powerful in many industries and negotiate contracts, but the government does nothing to ensure any particular outcome from those negotiations. Workers are paid what they are worth, not based on government’s perception of what is fair."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffre...dic-countries-are-not-socialist/#1c812f9574ad

 

Oh! I loved that daily ride on the train from Tokyo to Kawasaki when I was there during the days I had a development team working in Kawasaki.
So damned efficient, they could really stuff the standing room only. They had "pushers" on the platform to get the last man or woman in before the doors shut on the cars.

One day, this poor little lady was actually stuffed face first into my left armpit. I struggled to get a hole for her to breath through while we were clamped in position until we got to a stop where some got off instead of on.

 

No, I was not talking about socialism as it is strictly defined. Few people know what that really is.
No, I was talking about socialism the way the far Right has defined it and is the usual meaning by the average Joe today.
Let me be clear, I'm not in favor of strict socialism.

 

Another point: The so called socialism that Nordic countries have today has not spoiled their economies and in fact, has enriched the lives of the populous so much that they rank among the happiest places on Earth to live.

 

I'm with ya on some gov assistance with medical, and Medicare/Medicaid. I prefer Klobachar, Pete & Joe's idea that give me the option to keep my private insurance.
I'm a old devout Chevy guy (loved my 50 Chevy Coup w/ the Franz oil filter and three one barrels attached to the 216) but I did'nt favor their bailout. They were bailed out then built plants in China and elsewhere.
Just didn't seem fairn to Ford and other business that managed their fiscal affairs appropriately. GM could have restructured and bounced by without tax payers dollars.

 

Maybe; maybe not:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45308016

https://nypost.com/2015/01/11/sorry-liberals-scandinavian-countries-arent-utopias/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/aliceg...n-happiness-while-america-falls/#6bae52a223fa

 

Well said. Except for Medicare, that was the beginning of the downfall in our once great healthcare system.

 

I don't like plants moving overseas either but business is business and these guys are out to make a buck, that's what they do all day every day. No, it's up to government to make it more attractive for them to stay put. Didn't Trump promise that businesses would no longer move production overseas? Yet, what has happened.
That being said, some things are best produced overseas. Those things are what require manual labor and things that require less intellectual input. Oh, and farming because we have the fertile soil and the water as well as generations of experience. If they want to make cars overseas that were engineered here in the United States then I say "knock yourselves out". We need to be more intellectually oriented.

 

I am here, futzing about making stuff better on my boat. Just happy as hell to live here.

 

>>>umm, what then to do with those individuals that do not, can not, or don't want to meet your intellectual standard?

I actually, finnally as one of the last hold outs, switched from being a Chevy guy to a Toyota guy. On closer inspections they took the designs from here and made them about 3 times better.
After Obama bailed out GM, I said fuck it, no more. Toyota's are preferred. Got rid of my last Chevy PU in May. Replaced it with a 2000 Tacoma, for and improvement of 11/mpg. I call it, the MarAzul support truck.

 

I found a four banger Tacoma. 2.8 liter as apposed to the 4.8 liter V8 in my prior 2004 chevy truck. Both with a 5 spd stick, the Tacoma runs about 11/mpg less than the Chevy. I need to shift into 4th gear on the same hills on the coast highway that I did in the chevy. The power is not much difference, just the rpms, where the Toyota has nearly twice the RPM range of the Chevy V8. But not nearly as much difference at highway speed, about 350 rpms more for the 2.8 liter vs the V8. But 11/mpg difference!

An 56% improvement in fuel consumption with an engine 58% the size.

 

GM's downfall was mis management as much as it was related to economic crisis. How is it that they were the only auto maker bailed out? Ford liked down filed and managed their business appropriately. GM didn't.
Farmers situation is more related to the tariff situation not so much bad management across the the board. Plus your example reflect's one company versus a whole industry/market.

 

The auto industry paid that money back.
Do you think farmers will pay their bailout back?

 

That wouldn't upset me. Not in the slightest.
I like Warren.