OT Sell me on a better plan

Discussion in 'Blazers OT Forum' started by Orion Bailey, Jan 19, 2020.

  1. Chris Craig

    Chris Craig (Blazersland) I'm Your Huckleberry Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator

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    Obama was Cleaning up the huge ass mess that Bush Jr left behind. Bush not only squandered the surplus Clinton left, but he put us in more debt than every president before him combined. Obama had to come in and play janitor.
     
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  2. The Professional Fan

    The Professional Fan Big League Scrub

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    I read it. And as someone that has decided Bernie is my candidate, and as someone that has donated to his campaign, I will admit what you wrote was compelling and made me think about my choice. It was going to be between Bernie and Warren for me. I mostly chose Bernie because his grassroots support is massive and I think he has a better chance to beat Trump. Though, I'd pay money to see Warren eviscerate Trump in the debates.
     
  3. Chris Craig

    Chris Craig (Blazersland) I'm Your Huckleberry Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator

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    This is a discussion that has been tried to be had many times here, but it has been ruined by closed mindedness on both sides time and time again. I can already see it happening here in this thread.


    If there is any hope that this country moves in the right direction, it's that people can start working together. And not saying people need to agree on everything. I know many here will disagree with me and that's ok. I am saying discussion, actual discourse needs to happen. The country really hasn't moved in one direction, but back and forth. A failure of bipartisanship is the reason. One president gets the ball moving one way. Then a president of the other party moves it the other way. And so forth. The same with congress and the supreme court. Nothing meaningful will ever get done if each side says fuck the other when they are in power.


    I often hear that plans offered by the democratic candidates are unrealistic. There is no way to afford them. They are dreams...etc. Those are excuses so we don't have to accept an inconvenient reality. Change is hard. It is easier to not face the problems at hand by pretending they don't exist.


    In truth we have set ourselves back. A lot of changes are needed. Changes do not come cheap monetarily or otherwise. But, we are on a troubling and dysfunctional path that could have irrevocable consequences.


    Fixing this trouble is going to take a lot. A Lot of creative ideas. Now, when we hear someone list a bunch of complex issues our country faces and says they are going to start on day one and fix them all. That is unrealistic. But, it is the right intention.


    It is going to take a span if presidents to fix the issues going on with our country. It is too big a mess for one president alone to clean up. It is going to take time. We live in a society where want to hear things are going to get fixed now, not later.


    We have to be patient. I don't think anyone running on either side can fix everything. I think a few of them (not including Trump) can point us in the right direction and start working on some of the many issues plaguing us.



    We need Open mindedness


    Bipartisanship - Set term limits for Congress and SCJ (fair appointments). More politicians working across the aisle, for the people, not for self interest.


    Living wage instead of a minimum wage. Rent control. The wage goes up only for inflation to go up. We need to control inflation. Inflation in the last 50 years is insane. It's unnecessary. People can barely keep their heads above water, many are drowning, hence the rising numbers of homeless. People can barely afford their rent...or pay both rent and bills and put food on the table, etc. We live in the richest nation in the world. This is ridiculous. The economy would in fact be in a far better place if Inflation were decreased and wages raised.


    Rewrite the Budget to balance it. Too much money going to defense (which most of it is not actually going to defense, but in the pockets of contractors and politicians. Balance it. Get rid of everything that is unnecessary.


    Education needs better funding. The school system continues to decay. Our children are our future, yet we are so caught up in our current bottom line we are disenfranchising them. We need to invest in them. We need smaller class sizes, better paid teachers, updated supplies, buildings that aren't falling apart, etc. We need free colleges and trade schools, so we aren't burdening our workforce. I think doing that will also allow the economy to truly prosper.


    Change the tax codes so big corporations and the rich pay their fare share. Remove loopholes Giving large companies tax breaks where they pay no taxes does little in most instances for the employees who see little to no benefit. Corporations like Wal-Mart, McDonalds, Starbucks, etc do what is beneficial to them, not to their employees. They keep that money and get richer. Don't tell me they can't afford to take care of employees if they have to pay taxes either. They are billion dollar industries.


    Withdraw most troops from the middle east in a measured fashion. Leave only necessary support.


    Instead of dropping out of all trade agreements, creating a volatile situation, just to pout and whine is not progressive. Renegotiate trade agreements that aren't fair. Insist other countries pay their way. Be a assertive but not a bully.


    Immigration needs to be fixed. More judges to hear cases. Instead of a useless wall, update technology at the border and at sea, bolster security checkpoints (most drugs are smuggled through checkpoints and by sea), have soldiers patrol the border.

    Let kids stay with their parents. No for profit immigration jails made out of old Walmarts and full of cages. Better pathways to citizenship. We are a land of immigrants. Our ancestors all came from elsewhere.


    Free Healthcare like Canada for those who want it. Allow those who want to keep their's to do so. (I find this interesting though. If someome is guaranteed free health care that covers everything and is better than what they are on, why not take it? The only two reasons I can think of. Fear, i.e. you don't believe it will be better. That or Principle...which is just stubborness, buy hey I digress.)

    Don't make it law everyone has to have healthcare. That will just cause people to not want it.
     
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  4. calvin natt

    calvin natt Confeve

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    I am 100% ok and willing to admit and have no problem whatsoever saying I am totally and completely closed minded about Donald J Trump. He is a fucking clown and needs to rot in a prison cell. No apologies here.
     
  5. yankeesince59

    yankeesince59 "Oh Captain, my Captain".

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    Hey, don't sugar coat it ...if you have something to say, just come out and say it ! :bgrin:
     
  6. Chris Craig

    Chris Craig (Blazersland) I'm Your Huckleberry Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator

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    Ok
     
  7. calvin natt

    calvin natt Confeve

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    Just thought I’d pop in and see if anyone changed their mind. Anywho maybe next time
     
  8. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    I watched this and overall felt very impressed with the realism vibe I got from him.

    Couple take aways.
    One, he opened my eyes to the migration fight and automated machines. He is absolutely right that immigrants aren't taking jobs over. Yes there may be jobs they still have, but i'm sure there is an increased fight for those jobs, based on a continually decreased need, as companies and farmers continue to upgrade their businesses to automated or machined operated facilities.
    Two, he boasted, quite matter of factly, that he would put the Dems back in the lead with a technologically advanced, campaign run.... but gave not one word as to how. I'm ignorant on Yang. ill be checking him out and i'm sure I will answer my own questions soon enough, but what is his background? Is it business? Does he own some elite tech company? How can he make such a promise and say its true like that?

    Anyhow, thanks for the link. I'm very intrigued so far. Seems down to earth, quick witted, funny, charismatic and able to speak fairly plainly that most common Americans can relate to. I need to dig more into his history and ideologies now. My only initial concern is, will he get the full party financial backing, if he doesn't sacrifice his own ideals for party ideals he disagrees with? OR is he like a Ross Perut and he is so wealthy he can compete regardless?
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
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  9. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    Thanks VG. Stated watching the initial link but its two hours, so I watched some of it and then had to move on for now. The link to his site will provide a ton of answers to my questions, as well, I'm sure. Having watch the link Sly put up, I'm interested and want to learn more about him no doubt about it. How is he sitting lined up to other Dems running?

    I will say this, I'm not sure im sold on a universal equal pay program, but I do tend to agree wit the loss of jobs and how will we be able to compensate for that without ending up with a few million people who now own everything and all the money, with extremely few jobs left for anyone to make an type of income.

    This is a huge economical change that would require a major marketing campaign to even have a chance at getting people to understand the long term path and even start thinking about options on how to deal with it.
    Where would this lead to though? Predetermined career paths given to us by the government based one early testing? That's scary in its own right. There is a very fine line with this that could easily cross over the line of freedom and be a potential infringement on that basic right that many would push back against.

    This country and world economy is extremely fragile and as fortunate we, as Americans are, to not have had a war on our soil for the bulk of us living now, that we have forgotten the harsh realities of what "surviving" is all about. With that said, America would rather go back to surviving, than have their freedom of choice taken away. choice to save money. choice to make money, choice of career path, etc.

    Maybe he goes on to explain how this all would work, and like I said I will watch more later, but If I watched it all, I wouldn't have time tonight to provide comments/feedback. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
  10. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    So during the Clinton years was also the Internet age. Anyone who talks serious about the historical economical scale of our country puts major emphasis on that when discussing how robust the economy was during Clinton's run.

    However, this has nothing to do with my question about a plan. This is simply pointing fingers about the past.

    Really? Looks like you are wrong there....want to check this out and get back to me?
    Oh. And this again has nothing to do with my question about a plan for the future....:)

    https://sputniknews.com/us/201803271062904845-us-war-democrats-republicans/

    No doubt Bush was a terrible president in many ways. I'm sure if we dig, we can find a few things that were positive he did, but not worth squabbling over. We are in agreement. He was bad. Im sure if I did some searching I cold find some pretty bad democratic presidents too, but I wont turn every comment into a link response. :)

    That is alot to go over in one sentence, each part having its own set of complicated factions.
    debt being crazy big? Its sharpest recent incline was when Obama was in office per this grid:

    [​IMG]

    from 2008 -2011 or so, you see the sharpest incline. Then from there it moderates considerably into a steady incline. No doubt it needs to be a high priority for any admin to focus on, but to say it is just the GOP is incorrect per this grid.

    What does N Korea being closer to a nuke have any relevance? They have been trying to build one for decades. Are you implying Trump is aiding or facilitating an expedition for them?
    https://www.globalzero.org/updates/...MIv-CSnqqi5wIVQx6tBh3legJ3EAAYASAAEgIeS_D_BwE

    I addressed a couple of topics in that portion of your post, but will not address every one for time reasons, but serious.
    Again.
    None of this has any relevance on my question about a better plan. I'm not sure what you are claiming to prove here, but it has proven nothing to me so far as to the relevant answer to my question, show me a better plan. a plan of ideals and political guidelines that would help us as a country moving forward?

    Again, See the grid above. Your comment on the budget is incorrect and i'm willing to bet if I did a search of Democratic presidents who have got us, or been involved in conflicts/wears, there would be multiple. But may I ask . What part of this isa plan to help us move positively into the future?

    Okay. Now here you go. This is hinting at what might be better for the future if I were to vote on the democratic line. So . expanded health care, but no medicare for all. Hmm. Sounds okay on the surface, but I need to see details. One of the reason I lean towards the republicans is because of this topic. I don't want universal health care. I am all for government aid to those in need due to uncontrollable circumstances and I do get that there are areas that are very gray and would need to be analyzed and thought out in detail to make sure where the line is in regards long term health issues. Cancer. Was it caused by 30 years of chain smoking, basically a long term self inflicted suicide, or is it breast cancer to a healthy and health conscious female?

    My point is I don't want to be stuck with a higher tax bill because now i'm paying for the health care of a bunch of people with poor health due to living the American dream and being lazy and sitting on the couch all day with a bag of freetos and a six pack of jolt and a netflix marathon.
    I'm all for spending the money and time to restructure the health care system in this country and giving the government more control, but only as long as it is written up in a very detailed and scrutinized way that can accurately differentiate between who is deserving and who brought their suffering on themselves in an acknowledged, conscious and prolonged manner. Guy makes a mistake rock climbing and falls, He should receive the care he needs. If a person chooses to hang out in a casino drinking and smoking all day and night and comes down with a diseases link and attributed to the lifestyle they chose, then they are own their own.


    Climate change or not, I think taking better care of our surroundings should be a focus of both parties, current and future admins. Whether we actually have a long lasting carbon footprint on this planets future or not, why the fuck do we like to piss in our own backyard? Every man, woman, child, city, state and country should do the best they can to recycle what they can and reduce their imprint on nature, within reason of living ones life.
    In this, I agree, that's sounds 1000% times better to me, and i'm not in agreement with the recent loosening of some of our ecological laws we had, allowing for a higher level of emissions and pollution. This, in my opinion was not a good move.


    All in all, I didn't really come to understand any type of plan for the future you might have been trying to line out, however I did comment on a couple of topics you toughed upon, though without much of any in depth plan on how to do it, or links to candidates who can explain how they would implement such an ideology as healthcare for most. Or any thoughts on how to balance the budget without huge tax increases or major spending cuts?

    Most of what you said sounded fantastic in its own little soundbite on its own. The magic ten words to sell off of. Its the next ten i'm looking for. HOW will you make these things come into fruition . What is the plan of action, angle or pathway to achieve these statements of future greatness?

    That's what i'm looking for.
     
  11. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    My responses in correlation to your numbers:
    1) implement a plan will include either a bunch of one or the other, or some of both of, spending cuts and tax increases. Are you okay with that?: Obviously how and where would be a major factor in the sign off.
    2) I like this a lot and can possibly aid in facilitating the progress of number 1.Again, this would take major thought and majority consensus, but I think many are in agreement, the world is changing so fast, we are not keeping up when it comes to policies and sects the government drafted to deal with things that no longer pose a concern worthy of the sect originally created.
    3) I like this alot too. Id be interested in a discussion like this for grand jury judges as well.
    4) Complicated and each region has is own topic of details to sift through, but im all for bringing all troops home that aren't stationed for a critical strategical reason or imminent threat avoidance. Everyone else can come home and we can use drones for eval and small scale confrontations.
    5) corporate tax breaks for US MFG's to be competitive sounds great in theory but is very dangerous in its own right. You hear the complaints about how Walmart didn't pay any taxes. Corporate taxes are a large part of the governments income. To cut them could be costly to many programs the Dems want with regards to social services.
    6) This ties into a few precious numbers im for researching on how to make it happen.
    7) Not sure what you mean by SCJ's? When I googled, I got nothing but stuff on family work programs. not sure how that ties in to term limits?
    8) This should be a constant cycle of happening as time evolves, so do ideas, trends, pathways to scientific and industrial advancements and progressions, so too should all trade agreements, be constantly reviewed to ensure the maximum amount of benefit for all parties.
    9) This kind of ties into 8. Trade agreements and embargoes are a large part of creating leverage and putting pressure on counties who are not pulling their weight in any number of things , including humans rights, nuclear proliferation, etc.
    I used to think that free trade stops wars. Allow countries to trade and they fill their needs and don't attack to fill them. But no longer think this is the case. I think free trade and the WTO create wars, though civil wars. See, WTO creates world trade, so all countries can trade for the worlds resources. But then when a country has a leader rise and act in heinous ways, suppression of their people, defiance of the worlds wants, etc,..then embargoes are set and trade sanctions are imposed. This usually backfires, because it is the people who suffer and they often blame the USA. History has proven this time and time again. More often than not, The Us is not wanted in internal conflict happening in many countries, especially in the mid east region.
    Without going into detail about specific occurrences, other countries generally don't like outsiders meddling with their internal conflicts. Much the same if we have a civil war, we wouldn't want... well the opposing side, wouldn't want outside interference.
    10) Sure. Immigration is a concern, but lets do some studies on the numbers and impact before we push more. Trump has had a major push on immigrancy. I think its on the for front of debate enough and that will continue to progress into some sort of hopeful improvement.
    11) This ties into a restructuring of the Health Care System. One really cant happen without the other. The pharmaceuticals will need a major restructuring as well.
    12) The Fed Gov should get out of consensual crime laws and punishments all together. These should absolutely be a state by state and region by region thing. Let the people who deal with what they see in their own surroundings decide what they want to see or live next to or do to themselves. Just don't make me pay for it, if they chose an unhealthy path. ;) LOL
    13)I pretty much agree wit hthis, but it all needs a plan. Its just a good thought.


    All in all, great topics of discussion for sure, and overall, I agree with much of what you wrote. I wish I had more time to really break things down point by point, and maybe I will com back and do so in the near future, but life has been extremely busy as of late. :)

    Thank you for the quality response and maintaining a positive disposition. I enjoyed the read and thought provoking statements, providing my desire to respond. :)
     
  12. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    The thought is large scale wage increases mean more jobs moving overseas, but that isnt happening with the minimum wage jobs. They arent moving that Mcdonalds or Safeway to China. Ive never understood that argument. Minimum wage increases arent affecting people making 50-100k a year at nike and intel. They affect the people providing us our everyday needs. fast food and cash register services. They pump our gas. Thier jobs arent going anywhere because they are the ones servicing on a local community level. not in some mass production type environment. Yes, some o those may go, but those are MFG companies that need to be differentiates form large corporate service related companies.
    Minimum wage should be at least $15, but I say $20. Thats a true livable, modest, but livable wage.
     
  13. Lanny

    Lanny Original Season Ticket Holder "Mr. Big Shot"

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    The difference is that at the end of WWII we had a lot returning soldiers who could contribute to our economy and a GI Bill that would facilitate that. We also had an economy that was going from a war time footing to a peace time footing so our economy could recover from our vast national debt. We don't have that now while we do have an aging population with more people retiring and fewer to replace the retiring taxpayers. Our recovery is going to be a whole lot more painful.
     
  14. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    Do you actually think that comments like this are a positive way to get me, or anyone, to want to listen or be open minded to anything you or anyone that agrees with you says? Do you not see that in making statements like this, do you not only help to push people like me further in the other direction, but you completely undermine any true and endearing peaceable conversation any of your peers may be seeking. Your blind hatred for Trump is the enemy you fight so hard against. Do you not see that it is your very hatred of Trump and how you express it that will help to get him reelected?

    You choose the way you decide to engage in debate with those who do not share your ideals. You can either look to discuss in detail situations or current issues in place and try to come up with a compromising solution, or you can just toss yourself on the floor and have a tantrum because someone might disagree with you on certain things.

    Let me ask you this, because you have often referenced Trump being a liar and a cheat and lacking morality for the office( Whicxh I don't disagree with) . Did you vote for Bill Clinton? IF so, how do you feel about that, knowing he disgraced the oval office and the office of the presidency when we openly lied about not having sexual relations IN THE WHITE HOUSE, effectively having an affair with his wife?

    Now me, I voted for Clinton. I thought he was changing the economy( I was young and naive), but also because I don't think ones personal life is of great relevance when it comes to a sexual nature. If he is able to resolve it with his wife, then that is all he needs to answer to.
    With that said, I find it extremely hypocritical when people make statements like lacking morality, but totally dismiss Clintons actions in the Whitehouse. There shouldn't be an argument involving morality if one is to discuss the Dems being morally superior to the Republicans. Both have shown to put leaders in the office with various defects to their morality and been supported by their party regardless.
    So to swing the morality card around with such great frequency just shows the shortsightedness and lack of historical memory to the office and who was preceded, one has.

    You are a disappointment to my OP and bipartisan progress in general. Rather than seizing the opportunity to state your case about how and why your ideologies can improve our way of life moving forward, you chose to ignorantly label me as a Trump supporter, of which I'm not, and close the door on any constructive discussions and/or debate. Anyone who takes an ideological stance similar to yours and has a true admirable agenda, should be ashamed of your portrayal of your common goal with them of getting Trump out of office.

    You just don't get it. I WANT HIM OUT TOO! I just want him out with reasonable and thought out ideals, rather than moral hatred from those who find themselves morally superior. That, to me, isnt enough of a justification to just vote for anyone else. I need some confidence the person I'm voting for will actually be better or I might be struck with Trumps Biszerko and I don't want that any more than I want Trump in office.

    Don' put me down because I want to learn more about what the Dems have to offer, before I just jump in line like some Trump hating zombie, ready to follow blindy, anyone waving an anti maga flag. Sorry Im not that gullible....You have to bring something better to the table than that....
     
  15. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    Thanks Crand, for your thought out response. :)

    I agree with some and don't agree with some, and will get to it in detail sometime in the next week, after I check out the links provided. I don't really expect us to have many of the same ideologies considering our fairly different backgrounds and lifestyle,s but I always respect and will give an ear and thought to anyone willing to share, discuss and debate their positions in a constructive manner. :)

    Give me a few days to give you the true reply you deserve. :)
     
  16. Lanny

    Lanny Original Season Ticket Holder "Mr. Big Shot"

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    When I was in my mid teens the minimum wage was $1.25/hr. and the economy was doing very well. When accounting for inflation today's minimum wage ought to be somewhere between $15/hr. and $20 per hour. $15/hr. is a good first step.
     
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  17. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    You too Chris. Sorry, out of time, but ill get you a detailed worthy response within the next week. :). Lots of topics and thoughts you broached upon each deserving its own detailed response.
     
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  18. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    Not sure which portion of my very long post you were responding too, Lanny, but I don't necessarily disagree with you. WWII had its own economic pitfalls to recover that are completely different than today's issues, which will likely require a completely different pathway to resolutuion.
     
  19. Lanny

    Lanny Original Season Ticket Holder "Mr. Big Shot"

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    I'm not responding to you so much as making a comment on an observation about your Forbes graph.
     
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  20. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    Understood. Yeah its obvious why the last spike came to be. True world conflict. This time though its less obvious as the graph shows it starting near the end of Bush Jr and skyrocketing during Obama, then leveling off a bit. So what Happened there that caused the deficit to increase so dramatically? Several factions I'm thinking. Foriegn conflict and increased foreign aid spending being a large portion of it.
     

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