OT Sell me on a better plan

Discussion in 'Blazers OT Forum' started by Orion Bailey, Jan 19, 2020.

  1. H.C.

    H.C. Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I didn't read your posts so idk if you did what I posted about.
    I read the OP and one directly above my first post(quote and response).
    So yeah.
    Sorry I'm just turned off to people who play that game in politics. It shows they don't know because they just blindly follow their party lines.
    Which is fine 90% of people in this world don't have time, nor the desire to research every politician.
    My issue with those people is generally they're forever blue or forever red. Then they become the loudest in the room banging their political colors.

    But yeah off topic. have a nice discussion ya'll.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  2. TorturedBlazerFan

    TorturedBlazerFan Well-Known Member

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    The post directly above your post was OB’s and then above that was mine. Unless you’re referring to a different post. Do you mind clarifying, not looking for an argument just if my response came off as, “no you”, that wasnt the intent, and Id be willing to try to clarify my response.
     
  3. H.C.

    H.C. Well-Known Member

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    I mean it's pretty clear that I read OB's post directly above mine as well as the one he quoted in that specific post.
    In that quote it did have basically a "no you" response. Along with claiming he was a lawyer. While forgetting a couple years ago he said Obamacare was a godsend and he couldn't afford health insurance without it.

    But my memory gets me in trouble more often than not. People don't like things they've said in the past brought up in the now.
     
  4. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    and you deserve more than a retort on my phone. plus I'm finishing the Yang videos tonight, then will get to your Warren link on Wednesday or Thursday at the latest. Then i can get to Chris.

    Im genuine in my questions, so i can only give a proper response to those who take me serious.
    Please be patient and i promise i will respond in a thorough, thought out response. I owe you nothing less. :)
     
  5. TorturedBlazerFan

    TorturedBlazerFan Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I misread what you were saying.
     
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  6. H.C.

    H.C. Well-Known Member

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    It's quite alright.

    But I am going to bow out of this thread.
    Even sorry I ever posted in it.
     
  7. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    @VanillaGorilla @SlyPokerDog

    Okay guys, I finished the two hour video on Yang.

    I have two things.

    One, I definitely need to study him more to get deep into the details of his plan, as it is intriguing.

    Two, the flipside. This plan needs to be dissected down to the last minute detail or it will be a revolt of freedom loving Americans. I have doubts about his universal wage plan, but understand that it is likely where we will be 100 years from now, so part of me says, lets figure the details out and just get it going.
    I need to watch and study more of his plan and how will make it happen.

    I will say this though, I really like how he speaks and that's huge for politicians. I rarely like how they speak, no matter the party affiliation.

    @crandc You are next! Going to check out your link tonight and dissect what you wrote. :)
     
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  8. VanillaGorilla

    VanillaGorilla Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure I understand what you mean by saying his plan takes freedom away in some way. I don't think UBI would take freedom of choice to make or save money, or freedom to choose your own career path away. Quite the opposite actually.
     
  9. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    Im not saying it does, yet. What I am saying though is that not every mind is of equal intelligence, problem solving skills or creativity and most wages people make are based on those factors. The more intelligent are those who often work their way up the ladder and/or prove themselves invaluable and rightfully demanding of a higher wage. I have more to study up on on him, so I may find he has the plan detailed out in such a manner that it covers all scenarios of creativity. How is he going to determine the value and wage for one artist over another? How will he determine who should be the one to move up the ladder into a more management/CEO type of responsibility?

    These are the things I need check into more, but im intrigued about the idea if there is some sort of fair distribution.

    I do believe the market used to be the best way to determine the needs of society. But in todays mass marketing in every corner of every thing we use, from sports jerseys to our phones, tvs and pcs, nothing comes without an add anymore. I think this mass spending in advertising can manipulate the minds of the average person and thus cause them to spend money on items that are not as good, and those companies have the power to squash the ones that do have quality products.

    Is it possible to be a believe in capitalism, but not big business? LOL.
     
  10. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    Okay,

    So I was finally able to check out the first link and read up on Sanders and Warren. Unfortunately I couldn't watch the video, because I cant get the sound to work on the PC im at. :(
    Ill watch it and im sure a couple more to get a better sense of her demeanor.

    If my choice was between Sanders or Warren, I would much likely vote Warren for the very same reasons you would. However, I know some about Sanders and im not a fan of many of his plans, which seem to be very similar to Warrens from what I have read so far.

    When I read this,

    "...And she has proposed a sweeping expansion of government support for Americans at every stage of life, from universal child care to free public college to expanded Social Security..."

    I get concerned.

    Who is to pay for all of this expansion? Me? Im not sure I want to pay more so someone can have 5 kids when I dont have any. Im not sure I want to pay more for all kids to go to college because (depending on the scenario) thier parents dont want to do what it takes to make it happen.

    I am for expanded social security to an extent. I am also for free health care for all humans born with disabilities, and a few other scenarios.

    I work hard and I try hard to do the right thing in all facets and times of my life (now, I was a little shit when I was young, lol) and I chose and maneuvered my path to put me in the position to have the income and the lifestyle I have. Why do I want to give some of my earnings up for others who dont want to work as hard or make poor choices in life? I am not responsible for thier decisions.
    I think this type of change in our government will only enable more laziness and it will begin a cycle that will be our eventual downfall as a country and as a society.

    We have become too soft and things are handed out too easily. We have lost the knowledge of just how fragile our economy and current living really is. We dont know what its like to truly SURVIVE for our lives.
    We will only continue to further disconnect ourselves fomr this reality and be less able ot cope with stress and life threatening situations if we continue to make it easier and easier. Life isnt made to be easy in my opinion. Its not easy for any other from of life on this planet and we are no different.

    Im goign to go check out the next link now, as that sounds like fun! :)

    Crandc, with everything I said, I still believe there are a great many more things that brings us as humans together than what separates us. We just need ot focus moreo n these and compromise more on the others. We are in a point in time right now where everyone has drawn a solid line without any flexibility. I think this is the number one issue that we need to focus on as a country. How to communicate. We are continually losing more and more of this skill in life. Poor communication starts wars.
    That's what scare me more than poverty, corporate greed or evil people. If we dont get a grip on our communication, we are going to go completely crazy.
    I guess i'm looking for a candidate who wants to slow down some of our fast pace and get us to focus more on the fundamentals of life and communication.

    Ill make sure I watch that video and give her her full opportunity to sell me on her ideals and plans before I just close the book on one article though. :) So this is a to be continued...
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
  11. VanillaGorilla

    VanillaGorilla Well-Known Member

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    He (or the government) would not determine which artist gets more than another or who climbs up the ladder to become a CEO. Consumers and businesses would still make those decisions. Everyone would get the exact same amount of basic income.
     
  12. crandc

    crandc Well-Known Member

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    Orion Bailey, I read your post but my torn rotator cuff is screaming at me so I need to stay off keyboards. I will get back to you in a few days.
     
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  13. Lanny

    Lanny Original Season Ticket Holder "Mr. Big Shot"

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    My wife has too torn rotator cuffs. She got one surgically repaired but, because of the painful and extensive recovery from the surgery and the fact that she got minimal relief, she refuses to get the other one repaired.
     
  14. crandc

    crandc Well-Known Member

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    OK, @Orion Bailey. I am going to answer.

    First, this is not directly about the campaign, but you talked about why should you pay for people's bad choices. Have you noticed when someone says bad choices they nearly always mean someone who is poor, usually a woman, frequently woman of color? Although the biggest determiner of poverty is being born into a poor family, something no one chooses.

    I don't know your position on reproductive choice, but I know that the individuals and politicians who want to outlaw birth control and abortion, and oppose sex education, are the first to scream about women making "poor choices" when they have children, and oppose any program to help mothers and their children.

    We don't hear about the poor choices of a rich white man who fakes a medical record to get out of the draft, is repeatedly bailed out by daddy, declares bankruptcy six times, cheats contractors and employees, is fined millions of dollars for fraud, and sexually assaults women; we hear he is his own man who doesn't have to follow rules. Even god-like.

    If a rich kid has a drug problem they go into expensive rehab, if a poor kid does they go to prison. They both made the same "bad choice".

    I also don't have children. But I know that society benefits when children are well fed, healthy, and educated - and those children are more likely to rise out of poverty.

    You say life should not be easy. What planet are you on? Ever had to take half your prescription meds because you couldn't afford all? Ever had to choose between food & paying the phone bill? Ever had to live in a car or on someone's couch because you were laid off and your pay was so low that even if you get unemployment it won't cover rent? Ever had an employer tell you they want to hire a man or that an employee with a disability is too much trouble? Ever had to let your teeth go because you couldn't get dental care?

    We are not wild animals (and even many wild animals live in groups where they take care of young and old members). We are civilized human beings, at least theoretically. You might recall hearing about "social contract" in school. It's the idea that we all participate in caring for those who need care (children, sick, elderly, etc) and that there might be a time when we need help. It's the idea behind paying into social security.

    Even if you think people deserve to suffer for what you call "poor choices", their children didn't ask to be born into "poor choice" families, will you punish them?

    Now, as to who pays. You probably know many of the largest corporations like Amazon pay NO federal income tax. A lot of them get returns. Billionaires pay a lower federal tax rate than poor people. Throw in the bloated military budget, more than the rest of the world combined, and there's the money.

    Most of us admired Paul Allen and there was a lot to like. But at his death he had a reported worth of $25 billion. Honestly, who needs that? He could have had 10% of that and been very very wealthy, able to have sports teams, yachts, houses, private jets, anything he wanted, and the country would have $23.5 billion for schools, housing, developing renewable energy. That illustrates the price society pays when wealth is concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. Warren does not propose any such radical expropriation. She proposes a wealth tax. The first $50 million a person owns would be exempt, so we are talking about the 1% of the 1%. After $50 million, they are taxed two cents on the dollar. That's hardly socialism, they would still have tons and tons of money. But so would the rest of us.

    Next time Forbes comes out with their list of billionaires, get a calculator, or a pen and paper if you're good at math, and do the calculation.

    Although frankly if you ask me whether I'd rather pay for another nuclear weapon, Trump's golf outings, or preschool, I'd pick preschool any day.

    One more thing about Senator Warren. We hear a lot about "electability", which usually translates into old white male (hetero and Christian, so sorry Bernie). She has both former Hillary Clinton supporters and former Bernie Sanders supporters on her campaign, do you know how rare that is? Sanders supporters still think Democratic leadership put their thumbs on the scale for Clinton; Clinton supporters can't forgive the Bernie bros who sat out the election or even voted for Trump. I know Sanders supporters who said they absolutely would not vote for Biden, one even told me if Biden was nominated then Trump should be re-elected because people would deserve to suffer, kid you not. Clinton supporters would probably vote for Sanders if he was the nominee but would not campaign for him. Warren can bridge the two wings. Maybe you don't care about that so much.
     
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  15. e_blazer

    e_blazer Rip City Fan

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    Warren's wealth tax is my biggest heartburn with her platform. It's based on the notion that billionaires just have loads of cash in the bank that the government can appropriate without any impact on the economy. That's just pure nonsense. Bill Gates has a net worth of approximately $106 billion, so a 2% wealth tax would require a tax payment of around $2.1 billion. His wealth is invested in stocks in multiple businesses. To pull $2.1 billion out to pay his tax bill, he would have to sell a whole bunch of stock. What do you suppose that's going to do to the stock market when that impact, coupled with Jeff Bezos and a slew of other extremely wealthy cats who would be similarly in need of getting some liquidity, try to dump a significant chunk of their assets in order to pay their tax bill? And when the market crashes, do you think it's primarily the fat cats who are going to feel the impacts?

    There's also the crazy difficulty of assessing how much these people are worth at any given moment. Their stock portfolios can go up and down millions of dollars in a single day. And then there's the whole constitutionality question of taxing basic wealth. There are multiple opinions about whether Warren's wealth tax is a "direct tax" that is prohibited by the constitution, but you can bet that the issue would be tied up in court so long that she'd never see a nickel in her first term of the bonanza of tax dollars that she envisions to fund her platform of wealth transfer ideas.

    Don't get me wrong, the wealthy don't pay enough taxes in this country and I have no objection to shifting the tax burden more their direction, but I think that Warren's platform is based on a fatally flawed tax scheme.
     
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  16. calvin natt

    calvin natt Confeve

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    Lol. We can’t tax Bill Gates because it would be very inconvenient. He’d have to sell stock and stuff.
     
  17. barfo

    barfo triggered obsessive commie pinko Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Actually, Bill would pay $6B, according to Warren: https://elizabethwarren.com/calculator/ultra-millionaire-tax

    And he doesn't necessarily mind, although he doesn't endorse Warren's specific wealth tax. He thinks billionaires should pay more, and is ok with a wealth tax:

    You are probably right about the court cases that would result, but that doesn't matter anymore. Article 2 of the constitution says the president can do whatever she wants.

    barfo
     
  18. e_blazer

    e_blazer Rip City Fan

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    I think several billionaires agree that they should pay more. (Nobody is stopping them from writing the IRS a nice fat check, BTW). I'm not sure that quote you give is exactly Bill giving a carte blanch endorsement of Warren's tax proposal though. You and I both know it would have zero chance of getting through Congress anyway. I imagine she knows that too. Which makes her Oprah-esque promises (You get a car, and you get a car, and ...) all the more disingenuous.
     
  19. barfo

    barfo triggered obsessive commie pinko Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Bill actually addresses this:

    I stipulated that he does NOT endorse her exact proposal.

    President is all-powerful now. Congress can suck it. When you are elected they let you do it.

    barfo
     
  20. yankeesince59

    yankeesince59 "Oh Captain, my Captain".

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    I don't get this. Regardless of income/wealth, who, in their right mind, would willfully pay more taxes than they are required to?
     
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