Nurk vs. Hassan

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by Stevenson, Jan 31, 2020.

  1. BrianFromWA

    BrianFromWA Editor in Chief Staff Member Editor in Chief

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2008
    Messages:
    26,060
    Likes Received:
    9,014
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Restricted area. I'll edit it.
     
  2. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    20,710
    Likes Received:
    32,570
    Trophy Points:
    113
    that's for 2017-18, correct?

    if so, can you compare numbers for 2017-18 and last season?
     
  3. 42N8Bounce

    42N8Bounce Red Hot And Rebuilding

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2011
    Messages:
    2,575
    Likes Received:
    7,118
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    West Linn, OR
    Here's a look at how Whiteside and Nurkic stacks up against some of the all-time great Blazer Bigs:

    Rebounds per Game:
    1. H Whiteside, 13.9
    2. B Walton, 13.5
    3. S Wicks, 10.3
    4. M Camby, 10.0
    5. J Nurkic, 9.7
    6. K Washington, 9.5
    7. M Thompson, 8.9
    8. D Schlueter, 8.8
    9. B William, 8.7
    10. M Lucas, 8.7

    Blocks per Game:
    1. H Whiteside, 3.1
    2. B Walton, 2.6
    3. T Ratliff, 2.6
    4. S Bowie, 2.5
    5. M Camby, 1.6
    6. R Lopez, 1.6
    7. J Przybilla, 1.5
    8. J Nurkic, 1.5
    9. M Thompson, 1.4
    10. K Washington, 1.3

    And just for fun, here's the PER for these guys:
    1. H Whiteside, 24.7
    2. B Walton, 22.1
    3. A Sabonis, 21.2
    4. J Nurkic, 21.2
    5. L Aldridge, 20.3
    6. Z Randolph, 19.5
    7. S Wicks, 18.9
    8. T Owens, 17.9
    9. K Washington, 17.3
    10. R Lopez, 17.1
    11. M Thompson, 16.8
    12. M Lucas, 16.7
    13. B Grant, 16.0
    14. L Neal, 15.4
    15. M Camby, 15.2

    Both of these guys are damn good centers.

    upload_2020-2-1_11-3-36.png

    upload_2020-2-1_11-2-7.png
     
    Shaboid and HailBlazers like this.
  4. julius

    julius Global Moderator Staff Member Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    42,401
    Likes Received:
    29,999
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    singer songwriter
    Location:
    Washington
    I think one of the bigger negative aspects of Nurks game is that he used to be much more finesse. As last season progressed, he wasn't doing it as much as he had in previous years though.

    I like how HW will go up stronger and dunk on people, that's for sure.
     
    royo and TorturedBlazerFan like this.
  5. julius

    julius Global Moderator Staff Member Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    42,401
    Likes Received:
    29,999
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    singer songwriter
    Location:
    Washington
    It's possible that HW will re-sign (we didn't think Hood would), so this might be a moot point. I don't know if it's likely, as I don't know who is willing to come off the bench though.
     
  6. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    20,710
    Likes Received:
    32,570
    Trophy Points:
    113
    fleshing that out, NBA.com has opponent shooting stats for less that 5 feet from the rim which pretty much matches the restricted area. The percentages for Portland:

    2015-16 - 55.9% (Plumlee + Aminu + healthy Ed Davis)
    2016-17 - 55.6% (Plumlee (56games) > Nurkic (20games) + Aminu + semi-healthy Ed Davis)
    2017-18 - 54.2% (Nurk + Aminu + Zach + healthy Ed Davis)
    2018-19 - 58.9% (Nurk + Aminu + Zach & no Ed Davis)
    2019-20 - 56.8% (Whiteside on an island)

    again, if Nurkic was better at interior defense than Whiteside, we wouldn't see those 2018-19 numbers, and for sure, we'd see those 2018-19 numbers be better than this year's numbers when Whiteside has been manning the middle essentially by himself.
     
  7. JDC

    JDC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2008
    Messages:
    3,294
    Likes Received:
    3,116
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Hassan is definitely the better finisher. More length, touch and patience around the rim.

    Better pure rim protector as well.

    Rebounding is a tough one. Hassan's individual numbers are better, but team level impact stats still favor Nurkic (both raw on-off data and adjusted over last 5 seasons)--particularly as a defensive rebounder--which confirms eye test. Nurk's physicality and better discipline as a help defender stand out here.

    Do agree that gap is a little overblown. I attribute most of that to Nurkic having a more varied skill set and aesthetically pleasing game on both ends.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2020
    hoopsjock and Wade Garrett like this.
  8. UKRAINEFAN

    UKRAINEFAN Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2008
    Messages:
    13,534
    Likes Received:
    10,873
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    un-retired
    Location:
    Autonomous Republic of Crimea, Ukraine
    One thing the stats don't tell is how many guys decide not to shoot even though they get all the way into the paint when Hassan is playing. I have said to myself so many times this year: "Why didn't that guy shoot?" And sometimes it seems Hassan might not even be in position to block them but they are so worried that he is there somewhere. Even Le Bron yesterday got into the paint with the ball many times and either passed out or just dribbled right on through.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2020
    twobullz and blazerfan11 like this.
  9. Road Ratt

    Road Ratt King of my own little world

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2015
    Messages:
    4,612
    Likes Received:
    3,688
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    A fruitloop daydream
    I love Nurk but the way that Hassan is playing for the Blazers this season, he has earned the right to keep the starting center spot the rest of this season. Besides, this would give Nurk time to get back in the game without having to pull full time duties and possibly re-injure himself.
     
    Cugel and TorturedBlazerFan like this.
  10. SIeepwalker

    SIeepwalker The lone sane poster

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2015
    Messages:
    6,453
    Likes Received:
    9,551
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Strasbourg, France
    The right ? and what does it give the team ? We need to be smarter. Nurk and Hassan on the same team will not work. None of them will be happy being a backup. And Nurk is locked up on a team friendly deal. There gotta be some contenders looking at Whiteside stats and thinking that guy can help for a title push.
    And do you thing Hassan would be that mad at a shot at the championship ?
     
  11. blazerfan11

    blazerfan11 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2019
    Messages:
    9,323
    Likes Received:
    9,471
    Trophy Points:
    113
    How do you know that one or both of them won't play as a backup?
     
    HailBlazers likes this.
  12. Road Ratt

    Road Ratt King of my own little world

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2015
    Messages:
    4,612
    Likes Received:
    3,688
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    A fruitloop daydream
    That is what a head coach is for, to work out all that B.S. with who might be mad coming off the bench vs. starting. I understand that this team may not be able to keep both Nurk and Hassan for next season. But that is a matter for next season, not this season. I wasn't saying that Hassan should be the Blazers starter permanently, just that with the monster numbers he is putting up this season, in my opinion, it would be in the teams best interest to leave things the way they are at center position for the rest of this season.

    Hassan could get a title right here in Portland if he signed a short deal. A Nurk/Hassan double team at center would have the league in fear, or it should anyway. We get Collins and Skal back along with Nurk and this team looks to me to be setup to possibly make a deep run in the playoffs, as long as they can stay healthy, of course. If only Hood were coming back this season too, oh my what a team we would have by playoff time.
     
    HailBlazers likes this.
  13. bobf

    bobf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    3,959
    Likes Received:
    3,142
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I think just looking at opponent FG% is too limited. Hassan commits more to blocking shots than Nurk. That lowers FG% but allows more put backs. When a guard gets beat and Nurk is forced to help he routinely feints at the guard to force him to shoot, then backs up to box out his own guy. Smart way to defend but it allows a higher FG%. Teams are more selective against better interior defenders. That offsets the lower FG% with lower quantiy. Nurk faced 7.0 interior shots/game last year vs Hassan's 9.8 this year. But then again, Nurk had better defenders at his side. There's just too many factors going on at the same time. I think it's pretty close defensively. By RPM and BPM both are great defenders but Nurk is a somewhat better. Overall according to both BPM and RPM Nurk was significantly better last year than Hassan is this year.

    DBPM
    Nurk 3.8, 2.8
    Hassan 3.3, 3.0

    DRPM (high variance stat so I wouldn't put to much stock in HW 1.07 this year)
    Nurk 3.35, 4.08
    Hassan 1.07, 3.61, 3.53

    They're both very good. Better get value for Hassan.
     
    BrianFromWA likes this.
  14. Portland2014

    Portland2014 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2014
    Messages:
    633
    Likes Received:
    809
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I'm so fucking scared of Olshey's decision making, i couldn't tolerate if we lose Whiteside for nothing and Nurkic somehow got worse because of the injury.

    I don't want to regret letting go Whiteside a year from now.
     
  15. lawai'a

    lawai'a Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2013
    Messages:
    2,677
    Likes Received:
    2,694
    Trophy Points:
    113

    [​IMG]

    0
    Posted by
    u/shaqrandolph
    2 hours ago
    I'm talking box outs and you're invited.
    [​IMG]
    I was looking through some stats in my spare time, trying to see if the numbers show any sign of what exactly we're missing [other than all our fknnn players] when I came across something pretty disappointing to read; our box out numbers are waaay down.



    Let's take a look at the totals up until this point for last season



    NAME MINS TOTAL BOX OUTS
    Jusuf Nurkic 1647 509
    Zach Collins 1035 294
    Meyers Leonard 754 238
    Al-Farouq Aminu 1765 229


    Top 4 from last season above. Jake Layman was next with 68, Kanter had only played 5 games at this point of the season.



    Comrades, please journey with me through the numbers for this season

    NAME MINS TOTAL BOX OUTS
    Hassan Whiteside 1742 154
    Carmelo Anthony 1476 115
    Anthony Tolliver 554 93
    Skal Labissiere 567 89


    Top 4 arranged above. The difference a year makes is truly curious. Despite more overall minutes played, Hassan Whiteside has only boxed out 30% of what Nurkic was able to accomplish to this point [3rd March] last year. The loss of Collins has likely magnified this issue but this is finally something quantifiable that paints the other side of Whitesides outstanding stats.



    I don't blame Whiteside either as I think it's more of a physically limitation [lack of width and lower half strength] rather than an effort issue. Another factor to consider, is the evolution of the league in general. Houston have fully embraced small ball and other teams have also chosen to anger environmentalists, using stretchy, small ball plastic 5s over recycling possessions with traditional bigs. Lets compare last seasons overall box out leaders at this point with how they're tracking this season:



    NAME 2018-19 TBO 2019-20 TBO
    LAMARCUS ALDRIDGE 632 290
    NIKOLA VUCEVIC 588 269
    STEVEN ADAMS 579 275
    BAM ADEBAYO 505 364
    Numbers are down across the board as shown above. In fact, Adebayo is this years league leader with the 364 he has. Ed Davis and nurkic were top 5 last year but not displayed due to injuries this year.

    Does this drop across the board absolve Whiteside of blame? Again I wouldn't blame him for this seasons turbulence however even during his final 2 seasons with Miami he was only the 3rd best box out guy behind Bam and Olynyk.



    TL;DR - Whiteside doesn't box out at alll! Hold up, no one does anymore! Hold up, Whiteside never did. Stay Me700

    I can not take any credit for this as i have ripped this poster's hard work from a competing forum.
    i found the stats included to be quite interesting/enlightening in both the debate surrounding of eye-test/impact conversation of our current center and why perhaps we perceive a "lazy" version of whiteside from time to time. Securing the rebound as a critical component of the defensive side of the ball, i feel the stats help with the perception of why we look so much worse on that side of the court regularly also. Stott's better versions of team defense have in the past featured strong team rebounders/boxing out, Ed Davis, Robin Lopez Lamarcus, even leonard.... not so much this year



    [​IMG]
     
    Haakzilla, HailBlazers and illmatic99 like this.
  16. UKRAINEFAN

    UKRAINEFAN Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2008
    Messages:
    13,534
    Likes Received:
    10,873
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    un-retired
    Location:
    Autonomous Republic of Crimea, Ukraine
    Dropoff in statistics for our team are quite terrifying. But the fact that guys from other teams have dropped off so drastically makes me question whether the definition of a boxout changed or what? I don't think anything in the game has changed that much....
     
  17. lawai'a

    lawai'a Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2013
    Messages:
    2,677
    Likes Received:
    2,694
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Wow, another poster in that forum just pointed out that we as a team are dead last in second chance points allowed. Pretty damning of our front courts inability to put a body on anyone after a shot. Gotta be an important factor in our overall poor defensive showing this season. Pretty eye opening
     
    BBert and HailBlazers like this.
  18. illmatic99

    illmatic99 formerly yuyuza1

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    56,114
    Likes Received:
    53,918
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    NYstateofmind
    matches my eye test. He doesn't win contested rebounds. And he wildly chases blocks leaving his teammates in a poor position to defensive rebound. Can't stand the guy.

    Sets shit screens, doesn't sprint off of them to roll, such a waste of his athleticism.
     
  19. lawai'a

    lawai'a Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2013
    Messages:
    2,677
    Likes Received:
    2,694
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Seems maybe some stats that would validate the eye test after all
     
  20. royo

    royo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    883
    Likes Received:
    809
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Not sure if it's about that, but most of Hassan's blocks goin strite in their hands and 1/3 of them go outside for an easy 3 (well, it's always easy 3 against Blazers, init?). So, there is a q: Are Hassan's blocks actually hurting the team?
     
    BBert likes this.

Share This Page