Dame injury

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by illmatic99, Feb 12, 2020.

  1. Blazers Roy

    Blazers Roy Well-Known Member

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    That's right.

    No i didn't. I said there's a reason he was dumped, i didn't say that was the reason.
    You said Harris is better than CJ. Well, true all-stars who are healthy don't get traded a lot in this league.

    Stop being such a tryhard smart guy. I respect your diligence in some debates, but that was a dumb and obvious trap.
     
  2. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    I don't tryhard to be smart, I know it's wasted effort

    and I'm not buying the "dumping" thing....it's obvious why you used that particular word. And where does "true all-star" come into a debate about Harris and CJ? Neither has ever been one and the chances either will ever be one is slim to none. They are complementary players and both have ugly contracts, although Harris has the uglier one

    as far as Harris being better than CJ, yeah I believe that but I'll grant it's debatable. I definitely think Harris would be a better fit on Portland than CJ as long as Dame is here. The Dame/CJ back court has plateaued, and CJ's contract is a millstone dragging down flexibility. Contracts considered, I don't want either to be a Blazer
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
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  3. KSF-ERIC

    KSF-ERIC Well-Known Member

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    Slim to none? Harris was nearly an All Star last year as a Clipper. If Blazers get healthy and are on pace to win 55+ next year, CJ could absolutely make the All Star team. I think coaches respect him. I remember how befuddled the Grizzlies coach was in 2015 playoffs. He was like “we have a CJ problem.”

    Mario Hezonja’s chance is slim to none. Not CJ’s.
     
  4. Labinot41

    Labinot41 Well-Known Member

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    Cj will never be an All Star
     
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  5. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    yeah right.... Lionell Hollins was so befuddled he didn't change his defense one iota and tilt it toward CJ even though CJ was scoring well. He stuck to attacking Dame and Pushing Aldridge further outside...and Memphis won the series easily. And that was 5 years ago

    don't confuse lip service with respect. Teams respect Dame and focus their defenses on him leaving CJ single covered all the time. The next time a defense's primary game plan if focused on CJ will be either the first time or when Dame isn't playing. When teams come in and don't double and trap Dame because CJ is on the floor....which sure as hell hasn't been the case in the payoffs....is when I'll believe CJ is all-star material

    Dame
    Curry
    Klay
    Harden
    Westbrook
    Doncic
    Booker
    Mitchell

    Holiday
    Morant
    Murray
    Paul
    Russell
    Derozan

    CJ might belong in that 2nd group but he sure isn't going to be on top of it. He's not in the class of those first 8 players and only 5 go to the all-star game

    I mean, for chrissakes, Dame had an opportunity to advocate CJ for the all-star game and he went with Booker
     
  6. SIeepwalker

    SIeepwalker The lone sane poster

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    If CJ is transferred to an eastern conference team where he is the first option, I think he will definitely be an all star
     
  7. Bruno_Sabino

    Bruno_Sabino From Brasil (Belem-PA)

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    I’m worried about Dame. I hope he doesn’t stay out for a while, but I know he needs some rest.
     
  8. illmatic99

    illmatic99 formerly yuyuza1

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  9. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    EC guards definitely or likely better than CJ:

    Kemba Walker
    Kyrie Irving
    Bradley Beal
    Jimmy Butler
    Trae Young
    Khris Middleton
    Victor Oladipo
    Ben Simmons
    Zach Lavine

    guards around CJ's level:

    Eric Bledsoe
    Kyle Lowry (6 time all-star)
    Fred VanVleet
    Malcolm Brogdon
    Goran Dragic
    Jaylen Brown

    young guns who could step up:

    Devonte Graham
    Luke Kennard
    Duncan Robinson
    Collin Sexton
    Kendrick Nunn

    I don't know why people always assume it's an easy-peasy path to the all-star game for guards in the EC. There may not be guards with the super-star talent of Harden, Curry, and Dame, over there, but there are a bunch of really good guards that are better than CJ, some miles better

    I know the thinking is that CJ will go to the East and blossom....at 29 or 30 years old, lol. But CJ won't be leaving his flaws and weaknesses behind, they will go with him. He's simply not 1st option material. If he was he'd be a hell of a lot better than the 45% percentile in isolation; the 64th percentile in PnR; and the 59th percentile in isolation. He'd rank a damn sight higher than 115th in PER, 227th in TS%, 234th in winshares/48, & 196th in BPM

    he's accomplished that kind of average production & efficiency while being single-covered and drafting off of all the defensive attention Dame gets. If he was suddenly the #1 option, game in and game out, he'd be the primary focus of opposing defenses. Opponents would game-plan for CJ's strengths and weaknesses, and that is something he's never faced. If any team trades for CJ thinking he'll be their franchise player, the management is stupid and that team will very likely be losing most of it's games, and we know that makes the path to an all-star even more difficult

    I mean, look at the EC and identify which teams would make CJ the #1 guy at 31M a year. Milwaukee wouldn't; Boston and Toronto wouldn't; Indiana wouldn't; Philly & Miami wouldn't. Even a bunch of the losers wouldn't like Washington or Atlanta

    and CJ isn't going to be voted in by the fans so it would have to be coaches, and then, the factor of defense actually enters into the thinking unless a player is a bonafide star like Dame or Curry

    I know some people are going to nit-pick the list I made and come up with reasons why CJ is better than some of those players like Lavine or VanVleet or Brown, but you should at least compare their numbers before you do
     

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  10. e_blazer

    e_blazer Rip City Fan

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    I'm not going to argue either way on CJ, but I do think that you should at least acknowledge that playing with Dame impacts CJ's role and his numbers. This is from a couple of years ago and I have no idea what more up to date stats would show, but in 2017 CJ scored 10 more points per game and shot at a higher percentage in games where he played and Dame was out due to injury or illness.

    https://www.statmuse.com/stories/4afb15c4-45e4-44eb-9df3-1806e7ca2bb8
     
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  11. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    and Dame averaged about 34 & 10 last season when CJ was out. That's because the Blazers don't have any other high-usage ball handlers that consume possessions. But tiny sample sizes don't mean much at all. CJ spends a lot of time at the top of 2nd and 4th Q's with Dame on the bench. Time when he can be running the team and not deferring to Dame. Times when he often becomes MeJ. And that's a big reason why Dame has so many minutes this year because too often Stotts has to rush Dame back into the game early to save Portland

    I saw those games you're talking about. I paid attention. CJ had good numbers (and a usage rate arounf 35%) but what opponents didn't do was to double and trap CJ like they always do Dame. They single-covered CJ even with Dame out because they didn't respect CJ's ability to beat them. If CJ was suddenly the #1 option on a team and his numbers were elevated up to say, 25 points/game like Lavine, defenses would start flexing toward CJ and his path would face a lot more resistance
     
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  12. e_blazer

    e_blazer Rip City Fan

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    No doubt a lot of that's true. My only point is that we really don't know how CJ would handle a situation where he was with a new team and was the primary ball handler and backcourt scoring threat. Teams would adapt their defenses to him and he would adapt his game to the new role. He certainly has the skills to take on a role like that. If he had other scoring threats at the wings and in the post, I think he would distribute the ball more than he does here, but who knows?
     
  13. lawai'a

    lawai'a Well-Known Member

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    I understand the small sample size, but would note he scored those 10 more points by taking an average of only 5.6 more shots.
     
  14. TorturedBlazerFan

    TorturedBlazerFan Well-Known Member

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    The issue with the numbers is that most of those guards for the most part are number 1 guys now, and only a couple of them with someone on Dame’s level. You’re kind of comparing apples and oranges. Would you want Kemba, Kyrie, or half of those guys to play next to Dame? Cause I sure wouldn't I think we’d say the same things about them that we do about CJ.
    Problem with two guards like Dame and CJ who need the ball to be effective is there is only one ball. Weve seen WB and Harden have really good months, and really good games buts rare they’re both good at the same time, because its hard and one guy usually has to take a step back for the other. Would CJ be an automatic allstar in the east? I doubt it, but if he was on Charlotte or Detroit, or some team like that he’d be the #1 guy he’d have an offense tailored around him and his numbers would be a lot different.
     
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  15. noknobs

    noknobs Well-Known Member

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    God you're obsessed.
     
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  16. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    CJ averages more FGA's than most of those guys on the list and has for the last 4 years. This season, CJ is 15th in FGA and 5 of the guys above him average less than 1 more shot a game.

    Bradley Beal is 3rd in the NBA in FGA's/game at 22.0. That's 3 more shots than CJ but he averages 8 more points a game, and he's on a team with a 20-33 record. Andre Wiggins averages 0.6 less shots a game but averages 1.2 more points than CJ, and like CJ he's an option 1b. Brandon Ingram averages 1 less shot that CJ but scores 3 more points. Demar Derozan averages 3 less shots but scores 2 more points.

    CJ has had 1st option FGA's for over 4 seasons; he's had a 1st option usage rate; he's had 1st option opportunity to create his own offense. It's not an apples to oranges set of comparisons.

    no, I would not want Kemba or Kyrie paired with Dame but that does not mean I can't recognize both are better players that CJ. Of the first two lists of names I posted above, I'd much rather have Bradley Beal, Jimmy Butler, Khris Middleton, Victor Oladipo, Ben Simmons, Zach Lavine, Malcolm Brogdon, or Jaylen Brown than CJ. They would all be better fits and just about all are more talented, especially when defense is part of the equation.

    of the rest, I'd rather have almost all more than CJ, then trade them because they' have better trade value

    OK...but I'm not buying it

    it wasn't a problem for Curry and Durant; or Lebron & Kyrie; or Lebron & DWade; or Manu & Parker; or Thomas & Dumars. And it wasn't a problem for KG & Pierce, or Kobe & Shaq, or Kobe & Pau, or Magic & Worthy or Bird & McHale. Kawhi and PG13 are doing well too, and so are Lebron and AD

    now, I'd imagine you'd return back to saying "2 guards" even though a guard and a SF aren't really different in any significant way. For that matter, high usage bigs and a guard create a pretty similar equation in terms of ball demand

    what those example show, at least to me, is having only one ball isn't the problem. NOT having two elite players is the problem. Dame's name fits with those other names, even if toward the bottom of the list. CJ has no business being considered within 7 zip-codes of those players. All those other pairings complemented each other; they brought different skills into the equation, and Thomas/Dumars was the only pairing of players close to the same size. Dame and CJ are way too redundant compared to those other duo's

    all this discussion really does is highlight how logical trading CJ would be. The CJ fans could anticipate CJ going superstar on another team, while Blazer fans can anticipate a much needed change in direction
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020
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  17. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    I think this is about the 7th or 8th time you've tried to define me personally in negative terms. You might want to check the definition of obsession
     
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  18. illmatic99

    illmatic99 formerly yuyuza1

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    he's not wrong. you bring up how much CJ sucks in every thread.
     
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  19. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    where did I say CJ sucks?

    what I did was make a case why he would not be a "definite" all star in the Eastern Conference? a claim somebody else made
     
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  20. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    what he said in that interview, that he was still sore yesterday and it was a 'significant' injury might mean he'll miss a few more games than hoped
     

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