Around The Horn 1.03

Discussion in 'S2 Sports Bar' started by 808Hornetsfan, Jul 23, 2007.

  1. 808Hornetsfan

    808Hornetsfan BBW VIP

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    Welcome to the first week of 30 Teams in 30 Days! This week we'll be previewing the Atlantic division, and we'll also be talking about the latest NBA scandal that's got the fans and players alike all wondering whats going on. But we'll start off this edition of ATH as we preview the Boston Celtics. Remember, we are still playing by the ATH rules, so on Wednesday night one of the four players will be cut. So make sure you put everything you got in all of your posts, it's not about quantity but quality. So let's get started!! :winkglasses: Atlantic Division PanelGArenasvalo35iversonfan268Strike3<span style="color:#008000">Boston Celtics Preview</span>A draft night traded sent away the 5th overall pick to the Seattle Sonics, but that didn't mean the Celtics didn't get anything in return. Boston received All-Star guard Ray Allen in the deal, Allen is coming off a season in which he put up 26/4/4 a game. We've been discussing a lot about this move, and some believe that this won't do a thing to help this team get to the playoffs. So guys, in your opinions, do you think the addition of Ray Allen makes this team an instant playoff contender, or was this a bad move by management?BluffCityBlue will be judging this week.
     
  2. GArenas

    GArenas Wiz Fo Champz

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    When I look at the Boston Celtics I see a squad that has the potential to make it to the first round. They're built around Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, and Al Jefferson. This is a dynamite scoring trio who will rival the big-three's of Washington and Phoenix. Ray Allen will bring a veteran with arguebely the best stroke in the NBA, Paul Pierce will continue to lead Boston with his versatility, and Al Jefferson will continue to slowly shape into a dynamite big-man.

    Despite Boston's core being very strong, their supporting cast is very young and in-experienced. Make no mistake, the Celtics are not lacking in young potential but few of these young studs are proven. Ryan Gomes and Rajon Rondo both contributed a good deal towards the end of last season, however when you look past those two you don't see any solid contributers. Sebastian Telfair is not ready to step in and play a 6th man role at this point and Gerald Green needs to improve on his shooting touch before being a solid backup for Allen. By trading away Delonte West and Wally Sczerbiack the Celtics brought in an all-star caliber player who can help a team get to the playoffs but also severely damaged their depth which will keep them from going deep for now. Look at the 5 best teams in the NBA last season: Dallas Mavericks, Phoenix Suns, San Antonio Spurs, Detroit Pistons, and Cleveland Cavaliers. All these teams are very deep except for the Pistons who we've seen fall apart in the Eastern Conference Finals the last two seasons. I'm sure fatigue played a factor in the Pistons not being able to reach the finals after leading the east for a second straight season.

    After the Celtics depth problem, Doc Rivers is not a playoff caliber coach. Last year when 'Fire Doc' posters had been popping up for 2-3 months, Danny Ainge should have taken the initiative and done the deed. Getting rid of Rivers will not 'ruin the chemisty' as Ainge seems to believe, the Celtics are likely going to get off to a slow start anyways because of Ray Allen's addition. All team's that make big moves usually start off season's slowly, we saw it last year with the Chicago Bulls. Rivers will slow down the Cletics.

    The other issue with the Celtics is that the Eastern Conference playoff picture is very close. Last year the standing were:

    1. Detroit
    2. Cleveland
    3. Toronto
    4. Miami
    5. Chicago
    6. New Jersey
    7. Washington
    8. Orlando

    None of these teams have suffered the loss of a valuable player this off-season, in fact all these teams have improved their roster in the off-season. Therefore Boston will have to out-perform one of these teams which will be no easy task. The Celtics will also be forced to fight off the Bobcats and the Knicks in a pursuit for a playoff seed.

    --

    Ray Allen makes the Celtics an Eastern Conference playoff caliber team. However, there are factors to the Celtics franchise that hold Boston back from actually making the playoffs. I see the Celtics having a + .500 record but still missing the playoffs by a little.
     
  3. Strike3

    Strike3 BBW Elite Member

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    I like the draft day trade by the Boston Celtics to get Ray Allen but that wont make them an instant playoff contender. Injuries can hurt them again even with a better team then last year and still do pretty well. It's very hard to predict a teams future but it is easy to predict a teams future if there was no such thing as injuries and things like that. Guys like Al Jefferson will need to step up if they want to go somewhere this year. Some people are expecting too much from these guys now that they have Ray Allen. Two players (Paul Pierce and Ray Allen in this situation) do not make a team. A team is made of many players that put in hard work together to get the job done. Well on draft day they did get some good 2nd round picks like Gabe Pruitt out of USC and Big Baby Glen Davis out of LSU. People started to forget about Glen Davis once he was a Senior and LSU wasn't a top fifteen team. He was great in his Junior year and played pretty good in the Summer League. this guy has potential. Expect this guy to be a starter in about 2 or 3 years. Gabe Pruitt is a also a nice pick at Guard. He has some great quickness and can set himself up for some outside shots. He can also attack the rim so you can't expect one thing from this guy. He is used to playing Shooting Guard at USC but he will have to adjust to Point Guard for the Celtics. He really has to try to limit the amount of turnovers he causes.This team is full of potential but that potential is not ready to go all the way yet. They were in the worst division in the NBA last season but it looks like it wont be this year with the Raptors an up and coming team. The Nets are always a contender. The Knicks another Atlantic Division team getting a star added to their roster on draft day and the pretty bad Philadelphia 76ers.I would have to agree with GArenas that Doc Rivers is not a playoff caliber coach and that is because he has no playoff experience. This year the Eastern Conference should be a little stronger so I would have to say the Celtics make the playoffs as an 8th seed but I don't see them going anywhere in the playoffs.
     
  4. iversonfan268

    iversonfan268 BBW VIP

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    Ok, to answer the first question yes this does make the team a playoff contender. Ray Allen gives the Celtics another great scorer and another veteran leader and the addition of him should be enough to make this team a playoff contender. Plus don't forget the main reason the Celtics were so bad was because they were hammered with injuries last season. You also can't forget all their younger players now have another year of experience under their belt. As long as they don't get the injury bug again this team should be in the playoffs.However, this was also a bad move my the management. Yeah they have a playoff team now. Still when you look at their roster, do you see a team that could win the East? No, I see a team that wins around 45 games and takes a first or second round exit. So in the end, who cares if this team is a playoff team now? This team is still a long ways from being contenders and I don't see this move keeping Paul Pierce satisfied for very long. They are trying to show Pierce that they want to win now, but this wasn't the right move to do that. I think half the reason Ainge did this was just out of desperation. If they really wanted to turn this team into contenders now, I think they should've kept working Garnett even if he was syaing he didn't want to go to Boston. Garnett really is the only player up for grabs that could turn this team into contenders. They should have patiently kept working on Garnett, and if they still couldn't get him I think it would've just been for the best to part ways with Pierce and finally make rebuilding their main priority. This was just the wrong direction to go in. The only part of this deal I like for the Celtics is they got rid of Wally's contract. Personally I think parting ways with Paul Pierce would've been the best thing to do. I realize it would be hard. I mean the Sixers just parted ways with AI for the first time in 11 yearsa and it's still kind've hard seeing him in another uniform. So I know how it feels. However in the end it was the best thing for both Iverson and the sixers organization and I think it would be the same for Pierce and Boston. I mean look at all the young talent they have. There's very few teams in the NBA with as much young talent as the Cletics and those few teams who do have it are all rebuilding. For one, they could've kept their pick and they would've gotten another great player in the future in Green, Brewer, or Yi(hopefully not him). Plus by trading PP they would've gotten even more youth in that trade. This team would be looking great for the future. Instead they're just trying to win now, when they've still failed to do anything to make themselves real contenders. Ray Allen just isn't the answer to solving all their problems. So yes this makes them a playoff team but it was also a bad move and the wrong direction to go in.
     
  5. Memphology

    Memphology BBW VIP

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    GArenas-3 pointsOne thing, Cleveland wasnt top 5 team last season. Teams better are San Antonio, Phoenix, Utah, Dallas, and Detriot. Despite losing to the Cleveland Cavaliers, they are still the better team...thats series was a case of an legendary player dominating. Also, many people would put a <u>HEALTHY</u> Celtic team over the current Heat team, which is bound to be hindered with injuries seeing that most of there roster are old. Alos, Gerald Green as a nice shot, hes just inconsistant.Strike-4 pointsThe Philadelpia 76ers actually contended for the playoffs and were close to making it, after their turnaround when Iverson was traded...so they werent that bad. You have to remember, Rajon Rondo was ready last season, and with a season under his belt he is surely ready to play with and especially defend the elite PGs in the NBA. Kendrick Perkins has been dropping weight and he feels motivated for the upcoming season. So the Boston Celtics do have a nice lineup with Rondo-Allen-Pierce-Jefferson-Perkins. You also cant forget about the hard working Leon Powe and Tony Allen.ALL MUST HAVE THEIR OPENING STATEMENTS BEFORE SOMEBODY CAN REPLY TO A POST....Strike...
     
  6. 808Hornetsfan

    808Hornetsfan BBW VIP

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BluffCityBlue @ Jul 23 2007, 02:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>GArenas-3 pointsOne thing, Cleveland wasnt top 5 team last season. Teams better are San Antonio, Phoenix, Utah, Dallas, and Detriot. Despite losing to the Cleveland Cavaliers, they are still the better team...thats series was a case of an legendary player dominating. Also, many people would put a <u>HEALTHY</u> Celtic team over the current Heat team, which is bound to be hindered with injuries seeing that most of there roster are old. Alos, Gerald Green as a nice shot, hes just inconsistant.Strike-4 pointsThe Philadelpia 76ers actually contended for the playoffs and were close to making it, after their turnaround when Iverson was traded...so they werent that bad. You have to remember, Rajon Rondo was ready last season, and with a season under his belt he is surely ready to play with and especially defend the elite PGs in the NBA. Kendrick Perkins has been dropping weight and he feels motivated for the upcoming season. So the Boston Celtics do have a nice lineup with Rondo-Allen-Pierce-Jefferson-Perkins. You also cant forget about the hard working Leon Powe and Tony Allen.ALL MUST HAVE THEIR OPENING STATEMENTS BEFORE SOMEBODY CAN REPLY TO A POST....Strike...</div>Don't forget about iversonfan268, he made a good post too.
     
  7. Memphology

    Memphology BBW VIP

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    Iversonfan-5 points.You pointed out the positive and the bad. But you also have to remember what conference they are in. Given more development and some guys stepping up, the Boston Celtics could easily be in the Conference Finals ready to pulloff an upset. Although, we all know the Eastern Champion most likely wont be up to par with the Western Champs.
     
  8. Memphology

    Memphology BBW VIP

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    <u>YOU CAN NOT REPLY TO A POST UNTIL ALL PARTCIPANTS HAVE MADE THEIR OPENING STATEMENTS. STARTING TOMORROW, THEY WILL BE DELETED.</u>Also, we dont want 10 paragraphs of basicly the same thing. Things that will get you points is pointing out stuff that the common fan doesn't know...its <u>QUALITY, NOT QUANTITY </u>
     
  9. valo35

    valo35 BBW VIP

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    I disagree with my fellow comrades in thinking that the Celtics are an instant playoff team with the addition of Ray Allen. Sure he is a great talent, and will really help this team in for the upcoming year, but in the end I still feel that they will end up just short of the playoffs with the ninth best record in East. There are many reasons for this, from their own teams short comings, to what the other teams in the league have done. The Celtics may have developed a better scoring team with Ray Allen, but it still doesn't help what the Celtics was worst at, and that's defense and rebounding. They needed a shot blocking presence at the center spot, doesn't have to be a great center, but someone that can block some shots to make this defense more intimidating. Sure they can score more points this year, but this is a team that gave up 4 more points per game last year, than they scored per game. That is an obvious problem with defense, that Ray Allen will not fix for the Boston Celtics. Sure, he might help them score a few more points, but when it comes to those close games they won't have the defense to really hold off the opposing teams players. This was a team that was also not the greatest at rebounding, and finished in the lower half of the league in rebounding differential. For those that do not know, rebounding differential is the difference between your teams rebounding per game, and their opponents rebounding per game. That is not good, and means that they was known to get outrebounded from time to time also. Once again bringing in Ray Allen will not help with that either. Another problem I am seeing from the Celtics is that they are going to have problems with chemistry this season, especially to start the season, which is going to hurt them in the standings at the end of the season. Reason being, is because Doc Rivers is easily the worst coach in the league, and that is a hard obstacle to overcome. Doc Rivers has a hard time settling on a consistent subbing patterns, likes to play favorites, and will play his starters for to long without a break. One day he will give Gerald Green 30 minutes of playing time as he will score 20 points inlcuding 16 in the second quarter, then the next night he will give Gerald Green 10 minutes of playing time. He does this with alot of young players, and how are they supposed to adjust with subbing patterns like that? How is his team supposed to know their roles with playing patterns like that? There is no way they can know what he wants, and it hurts the chemistry of the team, which is why this team wasn't doing very good at all even before the Paul Pierce injury. He also played the starters WAY to long during second half's of the ball game without rest. I saw this during every game with the Orlando Magic, and the Cleveland Cavaliers. They were left tired, and fatigued at the end of the ball game, and didn't have the energy to close out any of the ball games. Terrible coaching can hinder a team as much as anything else in this league can hinder a team. They will start off slow because of that, and have to try to play catch up over the second half of the season.With every other team in the East seamingly getting better this offseason it's not like they are the only team that got better. They still haven't gotten as good as the Chicago Bulls, Cleveland Cavaliers, Miami Heat, or Detroit Pistons. So that is four teams already that are better than they are. Then the Toronto Raptors have gotten a better bench, as well as all of their young players will improve for the upcoming season. TJ Ford, Andrea Bargnani, Chris Bosh, are all young, and another year older. They will have better team work, better defense and should be better than the Boston Celtics for the upcoming season. The New Jersey Nets have tried and tested players on their team, plus with Nenad Kristic coming off of the injured list, they will have offensive balance around the court. That will prove to make them a much better team for the upcoming season. That's two teams in New Jersey and Tornto in their own division that will be better, as well as 6 teams overall in the Eastern Division. Then you factor in that Orlando got a scoring threat from the perimeter that will provide much more offensive balance to a team that lacked offense last year, and that should make them very much dangerous. They already had a strong defense, and was a good rebounding team, outrebounding their opponents almost every night. With Rashard Lewis they will definately have a better offense. Plus the addition of Stan Van Gundy give the Magic a much better, and much more proven coach than Doc Rivers. Then you have the Wizards who was one of the best teams in the East last season, and won't loose a step this year. With Nick Young added to their bench, they will be even better than last year. This is a team that should be in contention. You also have the Knicks who have gotten better from last year, and Charlotte, and I think we see them finish just out of playoff contention.I am looking at the playoff seeding as going like this:1. Detroit2. Cleveland3. Miami4. New Jersey5. Chicago6. Toronto7. Orlando8. WashingtonLeaving no room for the Boston Celtics to make the playoffs this season, as the 8 playoff spots should be filled up by other teams.
     
  10. Memphology

    Memphology BBW VIP

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    Valo-6 pointsDoc Rivers playing times being unstable can be a major problem, expecially for a young team. You also brought some unknown information about the rebounding situation. But you have to admit, the team got better and will probably play better if they stay healthy.
     
  11. Memphology

    Memphology BBW VIP

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    Valo-6 pointsIversonfan-5 pointsStrike-4 pointsGArenas-3 points
     
  12. Strike3

    Strike3 BBW Elite Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iversonfan268 @ Jul 23 2007, 06:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ok, to answer the first question yes this does make the team a playoff contender. Ray Allen gives the Celtics another great scorer and another veteran leader and the addition of him should be enough to make this team a playoff contender. Plus don't forget the main reason the Celtics were so bad was because they were hammered with injuries last season. You also can't forget all their younger players now have another year of experience under their belt. As long as they don't get the injury bug again this team should be in the playoffs.However, this was also a bad move my the management. Yeah they have a playoff team now. Still when you look at their roster, do you see a team that could win the East? No, I see a team that wins around 45 games and takes a first or second round exit. So in the end, who cares if this team is a playoff team now? This team is still a long ways from being contenders and I don't see this move keeping Paul Pierce satisfied for very long. They are trying to show Pierce that they want to win now, but this wasn't the right move to do that. I think half the reason Ainge did this was just out of desperation. If they really wanted to turn this team into contenders now, I think they should've kept working Garnett even if he was syaing he didn't want to go to Boston. Garnett really is the only player up for grabs that could turn this team into contenders. They should have patiently kept working on Garnett, and if they still couldn't get him I think it would've just been for the best to part ways with Pierce and finally make rebuilding their main priority. This was just the wrong direction to go in. The only part of this deal I like for the Celtics is they got rid of Wally's contract. Personally I think parting ways with Paul Pierce would've been the best thing to do. I realize it would be hard. I mean the Sixers just parted ways with AI for the first time in 11 yearsa and it's still kind've hard seeing him in another uniform. So I know how it feels. However in the end it was the best thing for both Iverson and the sixers organization and I think it would be the same for Pierce and Boston. I mean look at all the young talent they have. There's very few teams in the NBA with as much young talent as the Cletics and those few teams who do have it are all rebuilding. For one, they could've kept their pick and they would've gotten another great player in the future in Green, Brewer, or Yi(hopefully not him). Plus by trading PP they would've gotten even more youth in that trade. This team would be looking great for the future. Instead they're just trying to win now, when they've still failed to do anything to make themselves real contenders. Ray Allen just isn't the answer to solving all their problems. So yes this makes them a playoff team but it was also a bad move and the wrong direction to go in.</div>But why get rid of Pierce if there isn't any chemistry problems between him in the team. I know the Celtics wont trade away Pierce and that is the right move in my opinion. The Celtics will be able to win a championship in a few years when their younger players progress and get more talent reliability and stuff. Almost everyone knows they wont win the championship this year but we are looking into the future and not the present right now. But the only problem is they will probably have one shot at a championship with age issues with Allen and Pierce retiring and the Celtics probably wont be a good team. Thats when they may regret the trade they made back a few years on draft day.
     
  13. iversonfan268

    iversonfan268 BBW VIP

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strike3 @ Jul 23 2007, 04:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>But why get rid of Pierce if there isn't any chemistry problems between him in the team. I know the Celtics wont trade away Pierce and that is the right move in my opinion. The Celtics will be able to win a championship in a few years when their younger players progress and get more talent reliability and stuff. Almost everyone knows they wont win the championship this year but we are looking into the future and not the present right now. But the only problem is they will probably have one shot at a championship with age issues with Allen and Pierce retiring and the Celtics probably wont be a good team. Thats when they may regret the trade they made back a few years on draft day.</div>Because Paul Pierce doesn't want to wait to be a contender when he's older and not the leader of the team. He wants to win now while he's still a top 10 player in the league and the leader of that team. It's simple as that. If you can't mae him happy why keep him around where he's not happy. Why not give him a chance to be one of the leaders of a team that can contend? Your looking at this very simple mindedly(sp?). You make it sound like if they can't make a contending team now that Pierce will just be happy that they tried and he'll gladly stay there and continue losing while he's in his prime. It's not gonna work like that. If they can't make themselves contenders NOW Pierce is going to want out. So why not make him happy and trade him and get some more youth in return to further help their rebuilding process.
     
  14. Memphology

    Memphology BBW VIP

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    Strike3-1 pointIversonfan-2 points
     
  15. valo35

    valo35 BBW VIP

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strike3 @ Jul 23 2007, 07:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>But why get rid of Pierce if there isn't any chemistry problems between him in the team. I know the Celtics wont trade away Pierce and that is the right move in my opinion. The Celtics will be able to win a championship in a few years when their younger players progress and get more talent reliability and stuff. Almost everyone knows they wont win the championship this year but we are looking into the future and not the present right now. But the only problem is they will probably have one shot at a championship with age issues with Allen and Pierce retiring and the Celtics probably wont be a good team. Thats when they may regret the trade they made back a few years on draft day.</div>That's the problem with this comment, is where you say when the young players progress they will win a championship. They need the time to play and establish themselves, and with Pierce and Allen there, that is going to take away from alot of playing time for these younger guys. Your looking at two guys that can play 30 plus minutes per night, only giving guys like Gerald Green and Tony Allen 18 minutes at the most of playing time a night, considering most games are only 48 minutes, unless they go into over time. They won't play to many overtime games, compared to normal 48 minute games, so that is going to leave them getting only about 18 minutes of playing time. It's hard for young players to mature like that. We have seen to many times in the past where the young players need to move to start reaching their potential. In the cases of Tracy Mcgrady, Chauncey Billups, Joe Johnson, Mike Miller and others like this, they needed to move to a new place to expand what they could do. Then you add to it, they are not going to get reliable minutes, with a coach like Doc Rivers. They are never going to be able to settle down into a certain role, because they won't know what their roles is. You can't build a championship team off a group of players that do not know their roles on the court. So that is going to hinder their potential, and ability to get better, even more than it already does.Finally, as long as they have Doc Rivers, they will never be a championship team no matter the talent they have. You pretty much need a top tier coach to be a championship contender. Look at all of the past championship winning coach's since 2000, Greg Popovich, Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, and Larry Brown. All four of those are hall of famers, and four of the greatest coach's to have ever lived. You can't win with spotty coaching, and I don't see the Celtics ever wanting to get rid of Doc Rivers as long as Ainge is around, because of their long lasting friendship. This team will not win a championship how they are built now.
     
  16. Memphology

    Memphology BBW VIP

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    Valo- +4 pointsTopic will end in 2 hours
     
  17. Memphology

    Memphology BBW VIP

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    Topic will end in 1 hour
     
  18. 808Hornetsfan

    808Hornetsfan BBW VIP

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    Thanks guys for your posts, that should do it for Day 1 of our Atlantic Division preview. Tomorrow we will be going off-topic just a tad as we get your views on the Tim Donaghy scandal... You won't want to miss this controversial topic. :dribble: Day 1 Totalsvalo35- 10iversonfan268- 7Strike3- 5GArenas- 3
     
  19. GArenas

    GArenas Wiz Fo Champz

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (808Hornetsfan @ Jul 23 2007, 11:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Thanks guys for your posts, that should do it for Day 1 of our Atlantic Division preview. Tomorrow we will be going off-topic just a tad as we get your views on the Tim Donaghy scandal... You won't want to miss this controversial topic. :dribble:

    Day 1 Totals
    valo35- 10
    iversonfan268- 7
    Strike3- 5
    GArenas- 3</div>
    I had a nice one-day run [​IMG]

    Should've posted more than once though.
     
  20. Memphology

    Memphology BBW VIP

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    Haha...just be mroe active tomorrow.
     

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