Around The Horn 1.03

Discussion in 'S2 Sports Bar' started by 808Hornetsfan, Jul 23, 2007.

  1. 808Hornetsfan

    808Hornetsfan BBW VIP

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    Valo35 has a small lead over the rest of the competition, but can he score points with this today's controversial topic?? Let's find out...Due to some serious matters going on in the NBA, we are going to be pushing the New York Knicks preview to tomorrow along with the Philadelphia 76ers preview. After both topics are discussed, tomorrow night we will make our first cut of the week and three will move on to the next round.Out of Bounds- Special TopicMost of you should know who Tom Donaghy is at this point, this quote from ESPN pretty much sums it up: <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>NBA referee Tim Donaghy is under investigation by the FBI for allegations that he bet on games that he officiated over the past two seasons and that he made calls affecting the point spread in games, multiple sources said.Donaghy, a 13-year veteran of the league, is aware of the investigation and resigned from the NBA recently.</div>Now if he is convicted of these crimes along with other referees, the NBA is going to have to deal with a lot of angry people who will believe that games have been fixed by this man and possibly others. Mavs owner Mark Cuban has publicly criticized referees in the past, but never has there been a more shocking story like this especially after we witnessed a very controversial playoffs in which the officiating had a lot to do with the outcomes of games.So guys, what exactly should the NBA to handle this situation and keep it from escalating to the next level? Also, how does this effect the integrity of the NBA, are fans going to lose interest if in fact games in the past have been fixed??
     
  2. GArenas

    GArenas Wiz Fo Champz

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    The NBA needs to research other refree's and make sure that they're not also involved in a similar situation. This is a very unfortonate turn of events for the NBA, there will be alot of questions like "How many games were fixed" and "Did the NBA know about this?" After a couple years of certain players, such as Dwayne Wade or LeBron James, being favored by the refree people will begin to wonder if the NBA has been fixing certain games to bring in viewers.

    David Stern needs to make sure that he informs the NBA's fans that this is not the case. The integrity about the NBA is being challenged now, and it's up to Stern to bring the good name of the NBA back.

    If a fan is a die-hard fan of their team, then this news will not sway the fan from watching NBA basketball. Ratings are dropping, no doubt about that and now with this new news of games being potentially fixed, new viewers may be turned off from watching games.

    There's not much Stern can do, but he has to do all that he can do.
     
  3. Strike3

    Strike3 BBW Elite Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GArenas @ Jul 24 2007, 02:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The NBA needs to research other refree's and make sure that they're not also involved in a similar situation. This is a very unfortonate turn of events for the NBA, there will be alot of questions like "How many games were fixed" and "Did the NBA know about this?" After a couple years of certain players, such as Dwayne Wade or LeBron James, being favored by the refree people will begin to wonder if the NBA has been fixing certain games to bring in viewers.David Stern needs to make sure that he informs the NBA's fans that this is not the case. The integrity about the NBA is being challenged now, and it's up to Stern to bring the good name of the NBA back.If a fan is a die-hard fan of their team, then this news will not sway the fan from watching NBA basketball. Ratings are dropping, no doubt about that and now with this new news of games being potentially fixed, new viewers may be turned off from watching games.There's not much Stern can do, but he has to do all that he can do.</div>Yeah I agree with the first statement. David Stern should investigate each referee this off season because if he does that we may find some interesting things. This is turning some fans away from the NBA but that shouldn't be too bad if Stern can prove it was a bad turn of events and the NBA wont let this happen again.I doubt many people will turn away from the NBA unless this is just a sport they like to watch every once in a while and they do other things they like better than to watch NBA games.Every sport goes through things like this whether its numerous crimes made by players or a lockout of a season. These don't mean that now that this happened ratings will go way way down. People have to relax and let things play out it will usually turnout in teaching someone or people a big lesson. Now looking back at some games he officiated it does make me mad but I know that it will make the NBA more aware of things like this. Everything happens for a reason.
     
  4. Memphology

    Memphology BBW VIP

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    GArenas-2 pointsDavid Stern can do alotve stuff, he can put together an commission to review every game that suspected refs participated in. Also, you mentioned ratings are dropping, but you havent shown any proof.Strike-3 pointsVery true statement about the fans not going away from the NBA. Also, you made a good point about how all sports go through these situations, which the NBA has shown to deal with situations very well and arguebly the best outve the three major sports.I love how yalls posts arent 10 effing paragraphs...you said what you wanted to say and you didnt drag it out. Remember, once all the opening statements are made...you can post another 9 times to argue your point.
     
  5. GArenas

    GArenas Wiz Fo Champz

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BluffCityBlue @ Jul 24 2007, 04:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>GArenas-2 points

    David Stern can do alotve stuff, he can put together an commission to review every game that suspected refs participated in. Also, you mentioned ratings are dropping, but you havent shown any proof.</div>
    The commisioner can not do that much to keep the name of the NBA honest. As I said, he should make sure that other refree's are not in the same situation that Donaghy was in. If another refree's is found to have been effecting the outcome of a game, the result could potentially be very damaging to the NBA.

    Both the finals and playoffs lost viewers last season and the NBA has been slowly going down in popularity since after the NBA on NBC. Here are the TV ratings for regular season games since 1996:

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>NBC 1996 5.0
    NBC 1997 4.7
    NBC 1998 4.6
    NBC 1999 4.3
    NBC 2000 3.3
    NBC 2001 3.0
    NBC 2002 N/A
    ABC 2003 2.6
    ABC 2004 2.4
    ABC 2005 2.2
    ABC 2006 2.2</div>
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bask...Nielsen_ratings

    As you can see it has been slowly decreasing. In 2003, when the NBA left NBC, the ratings dropped .4, despite this not being a big drop it has continued to slowly decerease since then. You can see similar patterns in the finals ratings:

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>NBC 2000 Los Angeles Lakers 4, Indiana Pacers 2 11.6
    NBC 2001 Los Angeles Lakers 4, Philadelphia 76ers 1 12.1
    NBC 2002 Los Angeles Lakers 4, New Jersey Nets 0 10.2
    ABC 2003 San Antonio Spurs 4, New Jersey Nets 2 6.5
    ABC 2004 Detroit Pistons 4, Los Angeles Lakers 1 11.5
    ABC 2005 San Antonio Spurs 4, Detroit Pistons 3 8.2
    ABC 2006 Miami Heat 4, Dallas Mavericks 2 8.5
    ABC 2007 San Antonio Spurs 4, Cleveland Cavaliers 0 6.2</div>
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bask...Nielsen_ratings

    The ratings have also dropped here. Although the 6.2 and 6.5 were likely because the matchups were not exciting, the 2005 NBA finals was not considered an entertaining series yet Miami/Dallas who I personally considered a very exiting finals was only .3 higher.

    --

    I do not expect these ratings to continue to drop at this pace. However, the ratings have dropped, the NBA has to be careful that events such as this do not continue to happen as it may make matters worse.
     
  6. 808Hornetsfan

    808Hornetsfan BBW VIP

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    We're going to allow you to make a second post before all others have made theirs since it does take a while for everyone to make their opening statements. So GArenas you will get points for that, thank you.
     
  7. Memphology

    Memphology BBW VIP

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    GArenas-4 pointsWhen looking at the seasonal ratings for NBC/ABC, you also have to factor in games from NBAtv, TNT and NBA League Pass...they are drawing more viewers away from ABC. Also, losing viewers in the past is quite irrelevent to the topic, yet you made your point. Good post.We want these type of posts...showing proof, evidence and things that are pointed out that are FACT, to prove your point.
     
  8. valo35

    valo35 BBW VIP

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    I completely agree with Garenas that there really isn't to much that David Stern can do about this set of circumstances to make it up to the NBA fans. The most he can do is make a public speach where he says he's sorry to the NBA fans, Coach's and to the Players that play hard about what this refereee has done and that there is not another referee in the league jeopardising the integrity of the game like this. Past that, if someone thinks the NBA is rigged, there is not much that David Stern can really do to stop them from thinking that. Think about how many people thought the NBA was rigged, even before this scandal with Tim Donaghy came out, alot during that Miami Heat finals where Dwayne Wade got alot of fouls his way. If they thought the league was rigged then, there is really nothing that David Stern can do now to make those people think otherwise.However, one thing that has got to be somewhat good in his eyes, is that every other league is battling with their own controversy. Major League Baseball is dealing with Steroids that is making it look like players are having unfair advantages all over the place. The NFL is dealing with people getting arrested left and right, for strip club shootings, and dog fighting. NHL just came off of a lock out two seasons ago, and many teams were struggling for fans. Despite all of this stuff, these leagues are starting to show that they are able to draw fans still, even when things are looking their worst. That should provide encouragement to David Stern, that with a good quality of product this league can end up making out of this and being able to get some fans back. That's the encouragement that David Stern should have, but as Garenas has put it, there is really not much he can do to sway opinion on whether the league is rigged or not, people are going to think it no matter what.
     
  9. valo35

    valo35 BBW VIP

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BluffCityBlue @ Jul 24 2007, 07:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>GArenas-4 pointsWhen looking at the seasonal ratings for NBC/ABC, you also have to factor in games from NBAtv, TNT and NBA League Pass...they are drawing more viewers away from ABC. Also, losing viewers in the past is quite irrelevent to the topic, yet you made your point. Good post.We want these type of posts...showing proof, evidence and things that are pointed out that are FACT, to prove your point.</div>You can factor that in or the seasonal ratings, but it really shouldn't play that much of a part in it. During the week when most games are being played, there are hardly ever any games on NBC/ABC. NBC/ABC show the weekend afternooon games for the most part, when most other games are not being played. Considering lots of the other games that are on weekends are still played at night time starting around 7-7:15 at night some where, those don't play to much of a part in taking away from the NBC/ABC afternoon games.Another thing Stern could do to bring up some of the ratings, is just put a better quality of work out onto the court. With 30 NBA teams, you don't see teams that are stacked with talent, like there used to be back in the early 90's and 80's. The talent level on each team is much worse, and we are seeing alot more people that should not be getting alot of playing time, getting alot of playing time. If they was to get rid of just the bottom four selling teams in the league, the talent level on each team from the starters to the bench would go back up and it would be a much more competitive league. That would allow for a better quality of play, which would provide a better quality of entertainment. What I find funny, is that those ratings that Garenas showed, started going down, about the same time that the Raptors and Grizzlies were introduced, and there was around 29 teams in the league instead of the 27 before that. That is when the talent started getting stretched more thing, and the talent levels on each team started to get worse compared to before.
     
  10. Memphology

    Memphology BBW VIP

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    Valo-6 points combined for both postsWhen you have NBAtv, League Pass etc., alotve people dont bother with ABC(I dont, I hate the broadcasting, and most others do too) cause there is so many other better sources. Also, you cant prove that the talent level now is way lower than it was 20 years ago...but thats irrelevent. But you do make a good point about the expansion teams which may be a reason the talent level team to team isnt as high...but its certainly impossible to compare the NBAs talent as a whole to its 20 yrs ago. GOod posts.Iversonfan hasnt posted yet, but yall are cleared to reply to posts now.
     
  11. GArenas

    GArenas Wiz Fo Champz

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BluffCityBlue @ Jul 24 2007, 11:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Iversonfan hasnt posted yet, but yall are cleared to reply to posts now.</div>
    I don't think anyone other than Iversonfan has anything left to say. When does this topic end?
     
  12. Memphology

    Memphology BBW VIP

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    I guess now....I usually wait till 11(its 10:43 now)but...Yeah..it can end now.
     
  13. 808Hornetsfan

    808Hornetsfan BBW VIP

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    After another active day, GArenas and Strike3 move up the board to secure the top three, but can they hold off a possible late surge by iversonfan tomorrow, we'll find out as we preview the Knicks and 76ers before we make our first cut of the week. Until then, good night.Day 2 Totalsvalo35- 6(16)GArenas- 6(9)Strike3- 3(8)iversonfan268- 0(7)
     
  14. iversonfan268

    iversonfan268 BBW VIP

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    Sorry guys im gonna have to forfeit this week. I'm leaving for vacation tomorrow and I'll have no computer access. I stupidly wasn't thinking of that when I signed up for this week, so sorry. As for today I just didn't get many chances to go on because ive been busy preparing for the trip so I never got a chance to respond. Sorry if that held things up a little.
     
  15. Memphology

    Memphology BBW VIP

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    Can we sign you up for another week?
     
  16. iversonfan268

    iversonfan268 BBW VIP

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    Well I don't get back until next wednesday. Is there any weeks open after I get back?
     
  17. 808Hornetsfan

    808Hornetsfan BBW VIP

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iversonfan268 @ Jul 25 2007, 01:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Well I don't get back until next wednesday. Is there any weeks open after I get back?</div>We'll put you in the Central Division is that cool, that doesn't start until Monday August 6th. Is that cool with you?
     
  18. 808Hornetsfan

    808Hornetsfan BBW VIP

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    After a wonderful first two days of posting, it's time for us to make our first cut of the week when we are done with our two topics of the day. Unfortunately, iversonfan268 will not be available today so it looks like he will be the first person eliminated. But, that doesn't mean you don't need points, with a 7 point lead valo35 is pulling away from the competition... Can Strike3 and GArenas catch up in time? We'll find out today as we preview the New York Knicks and the Philadelphia 76ers.<span style="color:#FF8C00">New York Knicks Preview</span>The Knicks made strides last year and surprised a lot of people by being in the race for the playoffs, but inconsistency and a lack of teamwork sent this team tumbling down to a 33-49 record to end the season. However, a draft night move packaged high-priced Steve Francis along with young big man Channing Frye to the Portland Blazers for superstar forward Zach Randolph. Randolph is coming off a season in which he averaged 23 and 10 a night, but teamed up with Eddie Curry who averaged 19 and 7 last season, this may not be the a good move like the Knicks intended it to be. In today's NBA, it is very difficult to have two high-scoring big man that need floor space to be effective, and it's especially difficult when one of them is the team leader while the other is looking to take that crown away. To add to the drama, Randolph is considered a troubled player, so he may cause distractions for this team and lead them off track. So guys, can Eddie Curry and Zach Randolph co-exist in New York, can Randolph even co-exist with the rest of the Knicks team?
     
  19. GArenas

    GArenas Wiz Fo Champz

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    First thing is, you can't instantly assume that Randolph will cause problems in the locker room and with management. This last season, his attitude, troubles with the law, and lack of motivation seemed to have turned in another direction.

    That being said, Randolph still is not a prescence in the post on the defensive end. He's a full player on offense and will provide range along with the ability to bang in the post. He's a double-double machine but that will likely slow down while he's playing with Eddy Curry. As you noted, the Knicks have a situation where their #1 and #2 options are both big-men. With Curry being more of a banger in the post, I expect Randolph to rely on his mid-range jumpshot a good deal this season. These two will force the defense to play alot of attention to them which will create easy jumpers for guys like Quentin Richardson and Jamal Crawford.

    The Randolph addition will help out the Knicks but it will not lead them to the playoffs. As I said in the Celtics preview thread, the last couple of seeds in the East are all very contested. Charlotte, Boston, New York, and Orlando all want to get that 8th seed. When I look at the Knicks, I see a team that could have easily made the playoffs last season over Orlando. However, this year, New York is not a better team than the Celtics or Magic.

    Even after getting rid of Francis, the Knicks still have a messy backcourt. The situation that Isiah Thomas built for the Knicks guards makes these guards struggle to get in an offensive groove in games. It also hinder's developement of players such as Mardy Collins and Nate Robinson. Isiah needs to settle with 4 or so guards who will contribute.

    Despite the rotation not being changed as much as it was in the 05-06 season, I would see the starting lineup changed every few times I would watch the Knicks. That is partially because of the backcourt being filled with similar players. Near the end of the season before the injuries, the Knicks seemed confident with their starting lineup. Hopefully they will stay with that same cast next season.

    Also, the Knicks team is still very young. It's filled with youth, just in their starting lineup you see tons of young players. Jeffries, Robinson, Lee, Randolph, Curry, Collins, and others are still developing. This is also a problem that the Celtics face, if this team wants to make the playoffs they need more veterans.

    Knicks are in a similar situation as the Celtics, they are a playoff caliber-team who will probabely miss the playoffs.
     
  20. valo35

    valo35 BBW VIP

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    This is a tricky topic, saying will Randolph and the rest of the Knicks be able to co-exist out on the court. I think he will get along with the rest of the team, and stuff, mainly because that is something Isaih Thomas has been good at. He is a very good coach at getting his teams to set aside whatever personal conflicts they have, and be able to play on the court. Ron Artest was as troubled as they come, and has been under every coach but Isaih Thomas. Sure Ron Artest picked up technicals underneath Isaih, but he didn't get under his teamates skin, and he wasn't getting in trouble off the court at that time. So as far as the team getting along on a personal level, that isn't going to be a problem.However, from a teamwork standpoint, I do not see this as a good trade for the Knicks. They was so close last year to making the playoffs, and without a few key injuries, Particularly to David Lee this team could have made the playoffs. With Randolph, I must disagree with Garneas saying this will help the Knicks. I think him there will make them worse than last year, even if talent wise he is a better scorer than David Lee. Randolph is a lasy player, that does not hustle on the defensive end, and does not like to pass on offensive end. That sounds alot like Eddy Curry, giving you two of the same type of players on the court down low. Randolph took over 18 shots a game last year, most in the league for a low post presence, and only shot 46 percent from the field. Most of your low post presences in the league are shooting 50 percent or better from the field. Randolph also averaged over 3 turnovers per game. Pair that with Eddy Curry who averaged over 3 turnovers per game also, and both of these two starting low post presences are going to combine for a large amount of turnovers together. So now you have a low post presence that doesn't like to pass the ball, turns the ball over alot, doesn't hustle, and plays bad defense. Having two of those same type players in the offense, is going to clog up alot of shots, and cause this team to have even worse team work than last year.Another thing this Knicks team was missing was defense and three point shooting. The addition of Randolph is going to do nothing to make the defense and three point shooting any better. Infact, his refusal to kick out, even if he is being double teamed, will take away from three point shooting alot. There will be chances for kickout three pointers, and those chances will not get taken advantage of, because Randolph and Curry will not kick out. As for as defensively, once again both are lasy on defense and will let their man pretty much do whatever they want to. He hurts the already terrible team defense even more. So having no hustle defensively from the team, and no teamwork on the court at all, this is a team that will be worse than this past season.
     

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