Height & Championships

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by Tince, Oct 11, 2020.

  1. Tince

    Tince Well-Known Member

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    I get what you're saying, but I think you're missing a big point:

    I'm not saying a team with good wing like Boston is automatically going to win the finals. I'm saying NO TEAM, lead by a player of below average height/length has ever won a title and be finals MVP. Meaning, a team winning a championship, needed a player of above average height to play at a series MVP level to win.

    We're in a league where there are a ton of great PGs, yet, despite people saying the game has changed in favor of the PG, they are the ones more likely to see their productivity reduce in the playoffs and the teams with the elite wings are at an advantage.

    I keep asking this question... In the next five years, what players to do you expect to win more championships:

    Elite 6'4" under players : Curry, Dame, Harden, Westbrook, Kyrie

    Elite 6'8" and over players: James, Giannis, Leonard, Doncic, Durant
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
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  2. Tince

    Tince Well-Known Member

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    I guess my point is that if the last 13 finals MVPs were all over 6'6", the odds that a 6'2" player will be an MVP seems pretty low, agreed? In fact, I would bet it won't happen any time soon either.

    Our roster isn't missing a nice role player, it's missing an all-nba wing. Until that wing is on the Blazers roster, we're just not winning championship. I don't care how much we belly-ache about CJ, scheme, coaches, etc. this roster is still a massive piece from being a serious contender. History would back this up.
     
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  3. Tince

    Tince Well-Known Member

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    I like and agree with the majority of your post (which I did not quote).

    I never set or moved any goal line. My first posted stated a fact, the average height of the NBA finals MVPs. I never said every championship team going forward would have to have an MVP level player over 6'-9.5". I'm using the 6'-9.5" average to contrast the odds that a team will win a finals on the back of someone 5 inches shorter (outside the bell curve) because I believe, in a series, a team can come up with a lot more schemes to reduce the impact of a 6'4" player than a 6'10" player. I'm surprised that take is even controversial at all, but it seems to be with some.
     
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  4. SharpesTriumph

    SharpesTriumph Well-Known Member

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    Steph Curry was PG on the best team of all time. Sure Iggy won a series MVP but ita delusional to say he lead that team more than Curry.

    Elite wings are the hardest position to fill in the NBA and provide tons of value. That's true in the regular season and the playoffs.
     
  5. JoshuaHall

    JoshuaHall Well-Known Member

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    Technically your 6’9.6 number is incorrect.

    The actual number is 6’8.8 or 80.8 inches.

    Also Doncic is 6’7.

    Also, I think a more telling stat would be...
    You need a top 3 player in the league to win a chip.

    The exception is Dirk, who went nuts in those playoffs.
     
  6. JoshuaHall

    JoshuaHall Well-Known Member

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    Best player in the league.
    Best (healthy) player in the league.
    Top 2.
    Top 2.
    Best player.
    NR (Igoudala)
    NR (Kawhi)
    Best player.
    Best player.
    Top 5(ish).

    The two true exceptions were the 4th “fiddle”, Igoudala and Kawhi, on absolutely loaded teams. (Steph, Klay, Dray) (Duncan, Parker, Ginobli)

    So you need arguably the best player OR your 4th player has to be borderline all star quality.

    Height probably does matter to a certain extent as well.
     
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  7. kjironman1

    kjironman1 Well-Known Member

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    Notice the two exceptions were coupled with arguably the best or second best player in Steph or Duncan.
     
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  8. Phatguysrule

    Phatguysrule Well-Known Member

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    And I hate to be that guy, but how much of this is due to biased officiating?

    Not making excuses, but we need to get players of that caliber if we want to compete. The only one I can think of who didn't have that was Detroit after they picked up Sheed.
     
  9. RoseCityRebel

    RoseCityRebel Well-Known Member

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    Davis is elite too. So is Jokic. Both are over 6-8”
     
  10. blazerkor

    blazerkor Well-Known Member

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    I wanted to say although I've been making the argument throughout this thread that a lack of size in your most important players doesn't negate the possibility to win a championship, there is no argument to be made that height is an advantage in the game of basketball at every level. All of us have played basketball at some level. All of us have watched basketball at probably every level. There is no revelation here. Height has been seen as the greatest advantage a basketball player can have for the majority of the sport's existence. Now there are other advantages that have evolved to be seen as more or equally important but height is still the easiest of the great advantages you can have as a basketball player to identify. So the assertions that started this thread are not just accurate but obvious. The problem is that the assertion was used to imply the antiquated notion that height is the end all and be all of advantages in this sport. It also was implied that it's almost impossible to legitimately contend without your top player or at least one of your two top players having height and the average for that height was set at 6'9.5".

    The Warriors went to two championships in a row and won one where the primary lineup they used didn't have a guy on it over 6'8"... in the 2015 NBA Finals that those Warriors won no player over 6'8" logged more than 19 minutes per game. Oh and by the way the 6'8" player was Harrison Barnes and was either the fourth or fifth option on the team. Also if KD didn't decide to tag along for the next couple of seasons I think it's obvious that the Warriors would have continued to contend for and likely win championships with that same lineup. Is that the most likely or easiest way to win in the NBA? No, height still matters but don't infer that height is a determining factor. Height does not determine the outcome of the NBA Finals or any game just look at the 2015 NBA Finals to figure that out and because that team played that same lineup in two straight Finals you can't write them off as fluky or just anecdotal. That primary lineup not only won the 2015 NBA Finals but won the most regular season games in league history in the 2015-1016 season. Just an opinion but if that team wouldn't have choked away the final three games of the 2016 NBA Finals then they would have been viewed as the greatest team in NBA history with their top 6 contributors being 6'8" or under (hell their top 4 guys were 6'6" and under). Another opinion that I think can be widely accepted about that team is, they didn't lose those last three games because of height. The narrative that started this thread is faulty. It's based on a very weird stat (the average height of Finals MVPs) and it just doesn't hold up to reality. Again height is a huge advantage in the game of basketball even at the highest levels, it's the easiest advantage to identify but just because it's obvious doesn't make it determinant... IT DOES NOT DETERMINE ANYTHING!
     
  11. Hoopguru

    Hoopguru Well-Known Member

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    If you can couple height with speed and shooting, now you got something.
    Davis and The Greek Freak are examples and Im sure t6here are others. The joker cant jump but he runs the floor well, shoots and passes well.
     
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  12. Hoopguru

    Hoopguru Well-Known Member

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    Im not sure the Lakers win the championship w/o Davis and his length.
     
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  13. Tince

    Tince Well-Known Member

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    You're correct on the height, nice catch. Doesn't change the theory any.

    Top 3 player is also a way of looking at it. How often is a top 3 player average or below average height/length for his position? My entire theory is you need to have players with additional height/length allowing their superior physical skills to combat teams trying to reduce their effectiveness with multiple bodies. You would agree with that, right?
     
  14. Tince

    Tince Well-Known Member

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    Just to understand, your conclusion is: The Finals MVP being at or above average height in 13 straight finals is totally random?

    It just happened to be a coin flip that landed on heads 13 straight times? From a statistical standpoint, the odds of that happening would be 0.012%
     
  15. blazerkor

    blazerkor Well-Known Member

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    I do to an extent if the offense is executed correctly guys like Steph and Dame and AI and Isaiah before them can flourish and lead teams to a lot of success but yes they do usually need a lot of length around them to make those offenses work. Like I said, this is basketball so length will always be an advantage, especially when it is paired with athleticism and skill.
     
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  16. JoshuaHall

    JoshuaHall Well-Known Member

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    This is an interesting question because I *think* that you just need the best player on the court, no matter what “size” they are — or you need to be absolutely LOADED.

    An argument could be made that all of the “best players” tend to be taller because height is an advantage.

    I would of course counter with MJ who was 6’4.88, Kobe who was 6’4 and some change, D Wade, Curry, Jerry West...

    Anyhow, my true assertion would be this:
    With Dame and CJ, we need to build like the Pistons. We would need something like Middleton, Aldridge, Nurk to round out the lineup.

    OR

    We need Dame + Giannis / LBJ / AD with a bunch of scrubs.

    But like I said, height and “best player” may not be entirely mutually exclusive.
     
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