Who will be better this season? Nets or Raptors?

Discussion in 'NBA General' started by BrewCityBuck, Jul 25, 2007.

  1. CB4allstar

    CB4allstar BBW Global Mod Team

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noballer07 @ Jul 27 2007, 01:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Oh, they'll make the playoffs of course, that's a given, but I'm gonna keep saying that they're not ready to beat someone like the Nets or Heat in a 7-game series. Like I said, those two seasoned playoff teams know what they're doing; they have pieces that are much much more experienced than the Raptors in terms of post-season play, and one could argue that both of those teams have better talent overall.</div>How do you even know that we'll be playing either the Nets or the Heat? And you can't just predict that we won't be able to beat them, because we might play alot better in this year's series/series'. You can't predict the future, can you? Just because a team isn't as experienced as another team, doesn't mean they can't play well and beat 'em.
     
  2. noballer08

    noballer08 BBW Elite Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (808Hornetsfan @ Jul 26 2007, 11:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think Nitro, noballer, BCB and all the other guys all explained it pretty well, I can't add much to the argument. All I know is the Raptors have one year of playoff experience under their belts, one year doesn't really give you all the experience you need. Look at the '04-05 Bulls, they get on a roll and start winning games as a young team and almost get past the Wizards in the playoffs. Now of course, they didn't do much adding to their team, and what did they do? They got knocked out of the first round once again and knew they needed a few key additions.This Raptors team is a replicate of the Baby Bulls IMO, young team with loads of potential but won't get far until they find that missing piece. They can do all the improving they want over the regular season, but it won't mean squat when they're knocked out by NJ again in the playoffs. Kapono really does nothing other than come off the bench and hit a couple of threes, Delfino is way overrated with the way you guys praise him. He got like, what five minutes a night in the playoffs? That doesn't mean anything, chemistry will keep this team successful but it won't get them deep into the playoffs. The Nets can with a solid lineup and experience. Kidd will the same, Carter will be the same, RJ will be the same, Krstic will return and give them some much needed rebounding help, Magloire will be share time with Collins in order to give them size and strength, and throw in all the younger guys and you got a possible ECF team. I just can't say that about TOR, if Bosh were to go down they would not be a very good team. If Kidd were to go down in NJ they would still battle back because they have done that in the past, same as if Carter or RJ goes down they can overcome it. But I know my opinion doesn't matter because I'm about to be corrected in a few seconds anyway... [​IMG]</div>I agree with that; they could very much be compared to those Bulls in terms of youth.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Jul 26 2007, 11:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>How do you even know that we'll be playing either the Nets or the Heat? And you can't just predict that we won't be able to beat them, because we might play alot better in this year's series/series'. You can't predict the future, can you? Just because a team isn't as experienced as another team, doesn't mean they can't play well and beat 'em.</div>No, I cannot predict the future, but by logic and by this past postseason you would think the Raptors would end up being the 4th or 5th seed or lower, putting them in the position to play someone like the Nets again or the Heat. Lets see:1. Detroit- Consensus best team in the East2. Chicago3. Cleveland4. New Jersey5. Toronto6. MiamiThat is how I envision the top 6 seeds in the East...hell, you might even include the Wizards ahead of Toronto or New Jersey. The Raps have a better chance at beating Washington than they do going up against the Nets, but the Wizards have a better core IMO and have done quite well this offseason in getting the pieces they need.
     
  3. CB4allstar

    CB4allstar BBW Global Mod Team

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noballer07 @ Jul 27 2007, 01:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I agree with that; they could very much be compared to those Bulls in terms of youth.No, I cannot predict the future, but by logic and by this past postseason you would think the Raptors would end up being the 4th or 5th seed or lower, putting them in the position to play someone like the Nets again or the Heat. Lets see:1. Detroit- Consensus best team in the East2. Chicago3. Cleveland4. New Jersey5. Toronto6. MiamiThat is how I envision the top 6 seeds in the East...hell, you might even include the Wizards ahead of Toronto or New Jersey. The Raps have a better chance at beating Washington than they do going up against the Nets, but the Wizards have a better core IMO and have done quite well this offseason in getting the pieces they need.</div>Just so you know...the standings can't be like that. There has to be a team from each of the three divisions in the top 4 seedings...and assuming we'll have a better record than Miami, we should be the 3rd seed again...unless we lose the division to the Nets...but I don't see that happening.It would probably mean that we'd play the Nets, but still...you can't predict how the season will go.
     
  4. 808Hornetsfan

    808Hornetsfan BBW VIP

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    Well then we should be able to predict anything if you look at it that way, I mean we shouldn't have any opinions or expectations at all, for all we know the Bobcats are Finals contenders. [​IMG]
     
  5. MosDefinitely

    MosDefinitely Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (808Hornetsfan @ Jul 27 2007, 12:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>\I just can't say that about TOR, If Bosh were to go down they would not be a very good team. If Kidd were to go down in NJ they would still battle back because they have done that in the past, same as if Carter or RJ goes down they can overcome it. But I know my opinion doesn't matter because I'm about to be corrected in a few seconds anyway... [​IMG]</div>The Raptor's offense isn't built solely around Chris Bosh, if you watch any of the Raptors games from January and on you would notice that Chris Bosh gets his points within the flow of the game and doesn't hesitate to pass the ball to his team-mates unlike other all-star players. Anyone from our team could step up and fill a roster spot of an injured player, Ford goes down so then Calderon steps up and almost averages a double double...Bosh goes down so Bargnani steps up and torches teams from downtown ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0mUT3-I5h8 ). Yes losing Chris Bosh to injury would definitely be harmful to our team but I think we are built to withstand adversity of these injuries, while on the other hand if Kidd were to go down do you honestly think M.Williams would take his place and be as effective? Carter would most likely see the ball alot more but then a simple strategy would simply be to double him. Anyways im not going to brag how I believe Toronto is the best team in the world because they're not but theres nothing wrong with being a fan and having an optimistic view on the up and coming season and the future. In terms of standings I truly believe the Raptors are going to win the division this season but I wouldn't count out a HEALTHY Nets team to come close....Hopefully VC's injuries dont come haunting you now that hes locked up long term.
     
  6. 808Hornetsfan

    808Hornetsfan BBW VIP

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MosDefinitely @ Jul 26 2007, 10:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The Raptor's offense isn't built solely around Chris Bosh, if you watch any of the Raptors games from January and on you would notice that Chris Bosh gets his points within the flow of the game and doesn't hesitate to pass the ball to his team-mates unlike other all-star players. Anyone from our team could step up and fill a roster spot of an injured player, Ford goes down so then Calderon steps up and almost averages a double double...Bosh goes down so Bargnani steps up and torches teams from downtown ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0mUT3-I5h8 ). Yes losing Chris Bosh to injury would definitely be harmful to our team but I think we are built to withstand adversity of these injuries, while on the other hand if Kidd were to go down do you honestly think M.Williams would take his place and be as effective? Carter would most likely see the ball alot more but then a simple strategy would simply be to double him. Anyways im not going to brag how I believe Toronto is the best team in the world because they're not but theres nothing wrong with being a fan and having an optimistic view on the up and coming season and the future. In terms of standings I truly believe the Raptors are going to win the division this season but I wouldn't count out a HEALTHY Nets team to come close....Hopefully VC's injuries dont come haunting you now that hes locked up long term.</div>I got a hard time believing the Raptors could fill a 20/10 void left by Chris Bosh, IDC how big Andrea got and I don't care how many of your "role" players step up, there are missing pieces to this team, it only takes one tiny little miss-step to exploit a weakness. It's really tough debating with you guys, I mean like noballer said there's a point where you accept the fact that your team has weaknesses and is not yet the better team of this debate, but obviously there is no end to this...
     
  7. primetime

    primetime Get Your Popcorn ready again

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    While I dont feel either of these teams are elite, it is a tough comparison, the raptors are a young unexperienced team with no defensive threat while the Nets are an old veteran filled team with no defensive threat and consistent underachivement/injuries over the heads. While I dont think the raptors will be 2nd season again, and that they just had a good run I think they could beat the Nets out. I doubt either will be higher then 4-5 seed at best though. Next year is going to be interesting.
     
  8. CB4allstar

    CB4allstar BBW Global Mod Team

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jul 27 2007, 01:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>While I dont feel either of these teams are elite, it is a tough comparison, the raptors are a young unexperienced team with no defensive threat while the Nets are an old veteran filled team with no defensive threat and consistent underachivement/injuries over the heads. While I dont think the raptors will be 2nd season again, and that they just had a good run I think they could beat the Nets out. I doubt either will be higher then 4-5 seed at best though. Next year is going to be interesting.</div>One of these teams will have to be the 4th seed or higher...And we have Anthony Parker, who is an excellent perimiter defender. The Nets have Jason Kidd.
     
  9. primetime

    primetime Get Your Popcorn ready again

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Jul 27 2007, 12:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>One of these teams will have to be the 4th seed or higher...And we have Anthony Parker, who is an excellent perimiter defender. The Nets have Jason Kidd.</div>I actually expect the Celtics to win the division, and the knicks with a great coach like isiah thomas may have a chance also, although right now I'd take the raptors/nets over knicks, but not by a whole lot. Knicks get dog-piled on but they showed some fight last season and adding a 20/10 big man is going to help them ALOT. The Knicks have a huge low post threat now, and with a low post threat you want a star pg. Which they happen to have, along with a deep bench and a great coach. They are definately wildcards, especially considering no one in the Atlantic plays defense so it wont hurt them too much.
     
  10. CB4allstar

    CB4allstar BBW Global Mod Team

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jul 27 2007, 01:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I actually expect the Celtics to win the division, and the knicks with a great coach like isiah thomas may have a chance also, although right now I'd take the raptors/nets over knicks, but not by a whole lot. Knicks get dog-piled on but they showed some fight last season and adding a 20/10 big man is going to help them ALOT. The Knicks have a huge low post threat now, and with a low post threat you want a star pg. Which they happen to have, along with a deep bench and a great coach. They are definately wildcards, especially considering no one in the Atlantic plays defense so it wont hurt them too much.</div>Who is the defensive force on the Celtics? [​IMG] Because that seems to be your only argument about the Raptors and Nets not doing well. I personally think that the Raps and Nets will finish higher than the Celtics, because the Celtics were so terrible last year, and they have too many inexperienced players to become a great team overnight. I do expect them to contend for a playoff spot though, and I actually like them as the 7th or 8th seed right now..Haha, you think the Knicks are even close to the Raptors/Nets? Wow, their chemistry is going to be absolutely TERRIBLE. How many ball hogs do they have on that team? I would say around 10...and there defense will be sh*t too. Randolph and Eddy Curry are piss poor defensive players, and so are most of the other guys on that squad. Their offense will be good, but they will be inconsistent because of the lack of chemistry, and teams like the Raps should be able to score like 110-120 on them.
     
  11. TigerTaylor

    TigerTaylor BBW Elite Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Jul 27 2007, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Who is the defensive force on the Celtics? [​IMG] Because that seems to be your only argument about the Raptors and Nets not doing well. I personally think that the Raps and Nets will finish higher than the Celtics, because the Celtics were so terrible last year, and they have too many inexperienced players to become a great team overnight. I do expect them to contend for a playoff spot though, and I actually like them as the 7th or 8th seed right now..Haha, you think the Knicks are even close to the Raptors/Nets? Wow, their chemistry is going to be absolutely TERRIBLE. How many ball hogs do they have on that team? I would say around 10...and there defense will be sh*t too. Randolph and Eddy Curry are piss poor defensive players, and so are most of the other guys on that squad. Their offense will be good, but they will be inconsistent because of the lack of chemistry, and teams like the Raps should be able to score like 110-120 on them.</div>With Paul Pierce, the Celtics main defensive player missing 35 games, the Celtics still only gave up 1 more point higher a game than Toronto last season. Then they added Ray Allen, who isn't too bad on the defensive end either. I think the Celtics defense will be alright, so they have a shot to take the division. I do agree with you on the Knicks though. I think they'll finish 4th.
     
  12. CB4allstar

    CB4allstar BBW Global Mod Team

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GrizzFanTaylor @ Jul 27 2007, 03:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>With Paul Pierce, the Celtics main defensive player missing 35 games, the Celtics still only gave up 1 more point higher a game than Toronto last season. Then they added Ray Allen, who isn't too bad on the defensive end either. I think the Celtics defense will be alright, so they have a shot to take the division. I do agree with you on the Knicks though. I think they'll finish 4th.</div>Paul Pierce is nothing more than an average defensive player..Ray Allen isn't even considered good on the defensive end.BTW, I think Points per posession is a much better way to gauge defense than OPP points scored, because some teams give their opponents a lot more possessions than other teams.The Raptors rank 14th in PPS, and the Celtics...? 28th..
     
  13. Nitro1118

    Nitro1118 BBW Elite Member

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    [quote name='CB4AllStar' post='428088' date='Jul 27 2007, 12:05 AM']How am I supposed to back this up without saying that all of our guys work amazingly well together, and almost all are unselfish and great passers. How else do you think we were the 4th best team in the East during the regular season without any 2nd option, and just an average defense? I wish you would stop making that excuse, because Richard Jefferson still did very well at the start of the year. I think he got like 17 ppg on 50% shooting, so his early season injury did not faze him at all. You think you guys had a shitload of new players? How about us? Let's see here....Our new players were....TJ Ford, Fred Jones, Anthony Parker, Juan Dixon, Jorge Garbajosa, PJ Tucker, Kris Humphries, Rasho Nesterovic, Andrea Bargnani and Uros Slokar. You guys had it tough? 3/5 of our players had never, ever played together...and it didn't take us THAT long to get it going. Well, you guys had 5 new[/quote]If Jefferson's early season injury didn't affect him, he wouldn't have gotten surgery!!! He was scoring 16PPG on around 45% shooting, and grabbing only 4 boards a game. His 3pt % was also down, turnovers up, etc... He was not the same player.Unlike the Raptors, the Nets had early season injuries to the role players (House, Boone, etc..) and by the time guys like Moore and Nachbar started getting PT, Krstic was down and RJ was just about ready to get surgery. It is a lot tougher to figure in new pieces (especially big surprise ones like Nachbar and Moore) to an already proven team than to have a totally new team and fit them in easily.
    Because that was the only time of the year the nets had the bench mess finalized, RJ was finally healthy, etc.. Nets had same starting lineup as expected this year in 05-06, and no bench whatsoever, and they won 49 games. You have no ground when you say the Nets have bad chemistry.
    The point I was trying to make is the bench has little impact when 4 of your starters are likely to play over 35MPG. Juan Dixon? Meh. Joey Graham? Meh. Carlos Delfino? Meh. Kris Humphries? Meh. It isn't like you are the fu*king Dallas Mavericks and truly do have a great bench. And as I said before, I'd take Nachbar as my 6th man over anyone on the Raptors.WHO CARES if you have a better backup PG???? You only need one because TJ Ford is an average PG that needs a good backup. Jason Kidd is arguably the best PG in the league, and when he is out Carter and Williams run the offense just fine.
    Hmmm...experience is overrated eh? You keep bragging about winning nearly 50 games, but where did it get you? Bounced from the first round by a more experienced team with no post player. Big f*cking accomplishment.Nenad Krstic...when healthy is one of the East's best big men. Jamaal Magloire...former all star that will grab 8-10RPG and will mooch off the Jason Kidd train like Martin and Moore did. Bostjan Nachbar...one of top 3pt shooters in the league, great on fastbreak and off dribble. Jason Collins...shut down Chris Bosh, good defender overall. Eddie House...awesome 3pt shooter, great energy. Marcus Williams....good PG, can sometimes be very effective as scorer (remember 20pt 4th quarter vs the Suns?).Yep, no talent.
    Nacbar, Collins, House, both Williams', Boone...yeah, Nets have a really old bench [​IMG] Nets won because you played like sh*t? No, the Nets won because we contained Chris Bosh and didn't rely on low percentage shots (3pt) to win the series. And for the record, your 3pt shooters didn't suck...they shot 37% from 3, 2% better than during the season. Nets had 3 guys kill you because your defense is extremely average and nets can get big games from many different places. If Bosh sucks...you lose. If VC sucks...Nets win. Kidd or RJ suck....Nets can win.
    You can say the same about any player in the league...stupid statement to bring up. Raptors have concerns about injruies too.
    VC is better than ever, Kidd just had his 2nd best season as a Net, RJ is only 28 or so and looked amazing in the playoffs...there is no reason to believe this team will decline at all. The nets had a ton of new and unproven players last year, but now they know their role, and as you saw in the playoffs, were quite effective. How well did Nets do last season? Only 3 games worse than the amazing "nearly 50 win" Raptors. And we beat those nearly 50 win Raptors in the playoffs.Nets pulled through the injuries, and won 44 games. With NO POST player they beat your Raptors. This season they have that post player back in Krstic and fixed the major issue with the Nets, rebounding, with Magloire. Without those 2 major factors, the nets showed they are an elite team in the East when RJ came back healthy, went on a hot streak to end the season, and beat your Raptors in 6.
     
  14. MosDefinitely

    MosDefinitely Member

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    We'll have to wait for the season to start, I dont believe anyone is going to convince us Raptors fans that were going to lose to the Nets and vica-versa.The best we can hope for is if the Raptors and Nets meet in the playoffs again.
     
  15. noballer08

    noballer08 BBW Elite Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MosDefinitely @ Jul 27 2007, 10:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The best we can hope for is if the Raptors and Nets meet in the playoffs again.</div>I don't see why that's the best ya'll can hope for. Don't run up on the Nets and expect beat them in a 7-game series...
     
  16. MosDefinitely

    MosDefinitely Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noballer07 @ Jul 27 2007, 11:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't see why that's the best ya'll can hope for. Don't run up on the Nets and expect beat them in a 7-game series...</div>I didnt mean it that way, what I meant is the best way to end this discussion is to have the Raptors and Nets duel it out again in the playoffs.
     

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