Matchup #1: valo35 vs. Downunderwonder

Discussion in 'S2 Sports Bar' started by Zards, Aug 31, 2007.

  1. Zards

    Zards The People's Champ

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    Alright, here are the rules. </p>

    - No flaming/insulting is allowed, it's just a debate contest, and it's all in good fun.</p>

    - Only judges and the two contestants (valo and Downunderwonder) may post in this thread.</p>

    - The deadline is this upcoming Monday (Labor Day) at 12:00 PM ET. That should give you enough time to debate.</p>

    Your debate topic is: Did Dirk Nowitzki deserve the MVP award? </p>

    <u>Judges</u></p>

    1. cpawfan</p>

    2. Premier</p>

    3. Denny Crane</p>

    You may begin debating at any time. : )</p>
     
  2. valo35

    valo35 BBW VIP

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    This was a great question for this past year, did Dirk Nowtizki deserve the MVP award. He was on the best team in basketball during the regular season this past year, and he was the superstar on that team that was the best during the regular season. Many people felt that is what made him deserve to be the MVP, however I think that is completely wrong. Sure it is impressive to be the best player on the best team, however that doesn't make you the MVP. The MVP when spelled out is Most Valuable Player, and there was nobody in the league more valuable to their team this past season than Steve Nash. I realise some of the con's against Nash that people would use, like him having already won two awards, but I don't believe those to be legit excuses to not have given him the award this past season. </p>

    Nash was the reason for that great Phoenix offense being ran so smoothly over this past year. His ability to run the offense off of thepick and roll, as well as push the ball in the open court is what has made this Phoenix team look great. When he is in this offense is the best in the league, and when he is out, this team is not near as good. No further proof is needed than when Steve Nash got injured for those few games during January and February. The Phoenix offense looked much worse without Steve Nash playing point. They had no one that can consistently create shots for others on the team, and run the offense to keep this offense running smooth. That is the kind of value that Steve Nash added to the offense and Phoenix Suns team in general, the fact that they had a much harder time scoring and being productive when Steve Nash was not playing.</p>

    The same can't be said for Dirk Nowtizki as he had other people on the team that was able to step in and do what he did. There was many others on the team able to step in and carry the scoring load when Dirk Nowtizki had a bad game or when he was not playing. Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Jerry Stackhouse, all three of these guys had the ability to step in and carry the scoring load for the Mavericks should Nowitzki get hurt. There is no one on the Suns that can run the offense and set people up like Steve Nash did, and like has been said, it showed when he was not in the games during January and February. </p>

    So while Nowitzki was the best player on the best team, he was not the most valuable player. Steve Nash had much more value to his team, and shouldered much more of a load than Nowitzki had to shoulder. This is why I feel that Nowitzki did not deserve his MVP award this season, because it needed to go to Steve Nash.</p>
     
  3. downunderwonder

    downunderwonder You have now entered area 51!

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35)</div><div class='quotemain'>

    This was a great question for this past year, did Dirk Nowtizki deserve the MVP award. He was on the best team in basketball during the regular season this past year, and he was the superstar on that team that was the best during the regular season. Many people felt that is what made him deserve to be the MVP, however I think that is completely wrong. Sure it is impressive to be the best player on the best team, however that doesn't make you the MVP. The MVP when spelled out is Most Valuable Player, and there was nobody in the league more valuable to their team this past season than Steve Nash. I realise some of the con's against Nash that people would use, like him having already won two awards, but I don't believe those to be legit excuses to not have given him the award this past season. </p>

    Nash was the reason for that great Phoenix offense being ran so smoothly over this past year. His ability to run the offense off of the pick and roll, as well as push the ball in the open court is what has made this Phoenix team look great. When he is in this offense is the best in the league, and when he is out, this team is not near as good. No further proof is needed than when Steve Nash got injured for those few games during January and February. The Phoenix offense looked much worse without Steve Nash playing point. They had no one that can consistently create shots for others on the team, and run the offense to keep this offense running smooth. That is the kind of value that Steve Nash added to the offense and Phoenix Suns team in general, the fact that they had a much harder time scoring and being productive when Steve Nash was not playing.</p>

    The same can't be said for Dirk Nowtizki as he had other people on the team that was able to step in and do what he did. There was many others on the team able to step in and carry the scoring load when Dirk Nowtizki had a bad game or when he was not playing. Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Jerry Stackhouse, all three of these guys had the ability to step in and carry the scoring load for the Mavericks should Nowitzki get hurt. There is no one on the Suns that can run the offense and set people up like Steve Nash did, and like has been said, it showed when he was not in the games during January and February. </p>

    So while Nowitzki was the best player on the best team, he was not the most valuable player. Steve Nash had much more value to his team, and shouldered much more of a load than Nowitzki had to shoulder. This is why I feel that Nowitzki did not deserve his MVP award this season, because it needed to go to Steve Nash.</p></div>

    In rebuttal...</p>

    Did Nowitzki deserve the MVP this season? Well I choose to answer that with two critirea. Firstly on whether he was the most outstanding player in terms of individual performance, and secondly if his efforts were overshadowed by any other player in this league over the course of 82 games.</p>

    Now in the last few years the NBA voting comitee were seeming to use a formula that equated to number of regular season wins multiplied by relative importance of that player to that team. Steve Nash was a benefactor to that stance since without him the suns ground to a halt, a point brought forward by my opponent. Now whilst it could be argued that Nowitzki had a superior supporting cast and a team offence that could survive his absence he was posting similar numbers to past years in a more efficient and dominant way. His shooting percentages were up. His defensive efforts no longer resembled a matador in full flight. He was more often than not the spark that got the Mavs over the hump coming out of a slow quarter. He rebounded better than his averages suggested due to the work on boards from Howard, Dampier et al.</p>

    Yes he did have a better team than any of his competitors. It could be argued that with the same supporting cast LeBron would be holding the trophy right now. Is that mere speculation. Yes.</p>

    However it wasn't the fact that he posted 19.7ppg, 11.30 apg and 2.3 apg. They are no more remarkable than Elton Brand or Jermaine Oneal is passed years. That whopping + 23.17 effeciantcy rating and his lack of foul trouble could have helped. 90% from the foul line. 41.6% from 3 for someone who was the primary option on offense. All numbers that demonstrate one thing; an ability to take chances when they present themselves. That is what seperated him from Steve Nash, LeBron James and the like. Steve Nash may be the straw that stirs the drink but is he the one taking the big shot when the game is on the line? No that goes to Amare, Marion or even Raja in the corner. LeBron may be the man who singlehandedly dragged the Cavs to the finals but he famously blew so many clutch shots in high profile games. Even though that is like splitting hairs, it is seemlingly his only (sizeable) knock on his season.</p>

    Dirk is the man in Dallas. His struggles which led to Golden State getting over the line illustrated that point in colours that all could see. They had the best 82 games, in which more often than not he was the best on the court. And if the MVP is a true measure of excellence, the highest single accolade bestowed upon a proffesional basketballer on this earth, than it should go to the most outstanding, most dominant display of basketball skill over the course of a season. And whilst it could be argued Nash was as good, if not better, this year he was only the best facilitator, not executioner. That honour belonged to Dirk Nowitzki.</p>

    Thank you. This was typed at a slow, shitty pentium 3 at a youth hostel in Lisbon, Portugal.</p>
     
  4. valo35

    valo35 BBW VIP

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Downunderwonder)</div><div class='quotemain'>In rebuttal...

    Did Nowitzki deserve the MVP this season? Well I choose to answer that with two critirea. Firstly on whether he was the most outstanding player in terms of individual performance, and secondly if his efforts were overshadowed by any other player in this league over the course of 82 games.</p>

    Now in the last few years the NBA voting comitee were seeming to use a formula that equated to number of regular season wins multiplied by relative importance of that player to that team. Steve Nash was a benefactor to that stance since without him the suns ground to a halt, a point brought forward by my opponent. Now whilst it could be argued that Nowitzki had a superior supporting cast and a team offence that could survive his absence he was posting similar numbers to past years in a more efficient and dominant way. His shooting percentages were up. His defensive efforts no longer resembled a matador in full flight. He was more often than not the spark that got the Mavs over the hump coming out of a slow quarter. He rebounded better than his averages suggested due to the work on boards from Howard, Dampier et al.</p>

    Yes he did have a better team than any of his competitors. It could be argued that with the same supporting cast LeBron would be holding the trophy right now. Is that mere speculation. Yes.</p>

    However it wasn't the fact that he posted 19.7ppg, 11.30 apg and 2.3 apg. They are no more remarkable than Elton Brand or Jermaine Oneal is passed years. That whopping + 23.17 effeciantcy rating and his lack of foul trouble could have helped. 90% from the foul line. 41.6% from 3 for someone who was the primary option on offense. All numbers that demonstrate one thing; an ability to take chances when they present themselves. That is what seperated him from Steve Nash, LeBron James and the like. Steve Nash may be the straw that stirs the drink but is he the one taking the big shot when the game is on the line? No that goes to Amare, Marion or even Raja in the corner. LeBron may be the man who singlehandedly dragged the Cavs to the finals but he famously blew so many clutch shots in high profile games. Even though that is like splitting hairs, it is seemlingly his only (sizeable) knock on his season.</p>

    Dirk is the man in Dallas. His struggles which led to Golden State getting over the line illustrated that point in colours that all could see. They had the best 82 games, in which more often than not he was the best on the court. And if the MVP is a true measure of excellence, the highest single accolade bestowed upon a proffesional basketballer on this earth, than it should go to the most outstanding, most dominant display of basketball skill over the course of a season. And whilst it could be argued Nash was as good, if not better, this year he was only the best facilitator, not executioner. That honour belonged to Dirk Nowitzki.</p>

    Thank you. This was typed at a slow, shitty pentium 3 at a youth hostel in Lisbon, Portugal.</p>

    </div> </p>

    That formula the NBA used that you are talking about, is the forumla that people should be using, one to figure how a team does when their star player is there compared to when the star player is not in the game. That's what value is to me, the one that is valued the most for their team. Dirk Nowitzki while being an important cog to the Offense, that offense can still run with Dirk Nowtizki is out of the game. Because the main part of the offense for him is to score, and do little else, when he is not in the game Stackhouse, Howard, and Terry are good enough to carry the scoring load. That has been evidenced in the games that Nowitzki missed during the regularseason. They was still able to function on offense, and was still able to play good basketball. The Suns just do not play good basketball when Steve Nash is out for more than a couple of minutes in the game, or if Nash is out during key stretchs of the game. </p>

    We have seen how the Phoenix offense survives in the playoffs against the Clippers when he was having back spasms two seasons ago. We have seen how the offense works when he is forced out of the game due to a bloody nose, like in the San Antonio Series. We have seen how well the offense flows when he is out of the game during the regular season, like in thelate january and early February time frame from this past season. The Suns were close to the same record as the Mavericks were while Nash was still not hurt. Once he got hurt, they dropped off a few games, and didn't pick back up until Steve Nash came back from injury. </p>

    As for stats, I do find his stats much more remarkable than you give credit for them. 18.8 points per game while also trying to be the one to distribute the ball all around is very impressive. He did that on 53% shooting, including 45% shooting from 3 point range. That is very impressive, and proves that should he have wanted to shoot more, he could have brought his scoring per game up onto the same level as Dirk Nowitzki's. However, he had a more important role that just scoring. He had to set up the team, because he is the only one on the team that could consistently create shot oppurtunities for other teamates. Steve Nash also averaged 11.6 assists per game, which is very impressive. You can say it's no more remarkable than Elton Brand or Jermaine O'neal, but that is far from the truth. It is much harder to get double digit assists, than it is to get double digit rebounds. Case and point for that, is that Nash was the first person to average 10 assists per game over the course of an entire season, since 2001 when Andre Miller did it.Nash was the first one to average 11 assists per game, since the1996-97 season, when Mark Jackson did it. As you can see, it's much harder to rack up on assists than it is to get rebounds. Nash still found a way to average 11 assists per game, which to me is very impressive. Not only that, no on else the past three years has averaged double digit assists on the season, so those numbers are quite remarkable. They seperate him as the top point guard in the league, and make his stats look very good. So 18.8 points per game, 11.7 assists per game, on 53% shooting, and 45% shooting from 3 make me think of this as being very impressive stats considering how hard it is to rack up on assists, while also taking such a role in the scoring. </p>

    Onto the part about whether Steve Nash is the one taking the shot at the end of the game, in this day and age, he was in fact the one that created the shots for other people or himself at the end of the game which is very valuable. Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, and Raja Bell all three do not have the ability to create their own shots, evidenced by the fact thatMarion was assisted on 78% of his shots, Stoudemire was assisted on 65% of his shots, and Raja Bell was assisted on 79% of his shots. So someone on that team was setting them up with the open shots at the end of games seeing as how they could not create their own shotsvery welland that was more often than notSteve Nash, setting them up at the end of games. Not only that, but Steve Nash was also creating shots for himself at the end of games. So he was being the executioner in games when he had the shot, as well as being the setup man at the end of games. Both are very important roles, and helped further his role as being the most valuable player in the league. They needed him down the stretch, and when they didn't have him, they faultered from not being able to create their own shots on the floor which was shown throughout this season. </p>

    So it could definately be argued that Nash was even more valuable in putting opponents away than Dirk Nowitzki was. As I said, someone had to be setting Amare, Marion and Bell up at the end of games when they took the shots as well as Nash was taking shots of his own. He was known for getting into the lane and hitting clutch shots with free throws attached to them, or from hitting the shot from the outside. His ability to score or pass him made him the dual threat that Dirk Nowitzki esd not, and is why he was a way more valuable peace to his teams puzzle than Dirk Nowitzki was.</p>

    </p>
     
  5. downunderwonder

    downunderwonder You have now entered area 51!

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    Re: Re: Matchup #1: valo35 vs. Downunderwonder

    I have to say sorry for the delay of my reply however issues at the hostels I have been staying at have made finishing this debate with the answer that valo's 2nd post deserves downright impossible. I apologise for wasting time but didnt forsee such large numbers of germans at coastal hostels so afraid to leave the common room. Its like they have yet to see the beach!!! Arrrgh! </p>

    So this is an apology, a white flag and a thank you to all involved. May the bast man win.</p>

    Russ</p>
     

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