<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm confused....what's the difference between that and selfish? Delve into this, explain to me. Cause to me, not knowing when to shoot or pass means you're likely going to shoot mroe, which equals selfish. And if you don't know when to shoot or pass, how in gods name can you be a point guard? That doesn't make sense at all. Again I say, there was a reason why the Bulls drafted Kirk Hinrich in '03, and that's because they knew that Crawford couldn't handle running the point. If you're going to trade off Marbury, you might want to consider finding a point guard in the draft at some point, cause Crawford won't do too well for ya.</div> Because the Knicks put him at the SG even though he was a PG. Houston was supposed to be here longer so he was only supposed to be a SG for a little while. But when Houston got injured, Crawford was forced to take more of a scoring role. His insticts were telling him to pass, while his mind was telling him to score. He was a bit confused on his role. I thought the reason they drafted a PG was because their original future franchise player, Jay Williams had that nasty fall. Around that time, Williams was getting the minutes, but Crawford was doing his thing off the bench so well, they felt the need to start him.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Because the Knicks put him at the SG even though he was a PG. Houston was supposed to be here longer so he was only supposed to be a SG for a little while. But when Houston got injured, Crawford was forced to take more of a scoring role. His insticts were telling him to pass, while his mind was telling him to score. He was a bit confused on his role. I thought the reason they drafted a PG was because their original future franchise player, Jay Williams had that nasty fall. Around that time, Williams was getting the minutes, but Crawford was doing his thing off the bench so well, they felt the need to start him.</div> Forgot about the Jay Williams thing...however, the lack of a true point guard is the reason why they drafted Kirk I believe. Jay was still more of a shooting guard than a point guard. He was a scorer first, passer second. Crawford has always been a scorer first. Passing takes a back seat to him when it comes to scoring. He's always been a scoring guard. His instincts don't tell him to pass, they never really have. He is a scorer. When you're a scorer, you're going to shoot. He didn't start shooting more because the Knicks needed him to, he shot more because that's what he does. You want a prime example, look at Chicago last year. They had two other people capable of scoring in Kirk and Eddy (at one point also had Donyell and Rose), and Crawford was still taking the bulk of the shots. He's never going to be a pass first player. No matter where he goes, he's going to be a scorer in his mind.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post"> Another option if we trade Marbury is to just draft a point guard with Pheonix's or Houston's pick and leave Crawford at the two. Anyway I think Isiah Thomas should be fired.</div> quick add in, Houston has the Knicks second rounder, it was part of the trade to get Taylor.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">quick add in, Houston has the Knicks second rounder, it was part of the trade to get Taylor.</div> No, this year our second rounder belongs to L.A. It was originally the Hawks in the Nazr deal but I guess they dealt it to the Hawks. There's some move we did a long time ago and we have Houston's second rounder I'm not quite sure what it is though.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">Forgot about the Jay Williams thing...however, the lack of a true point guard is the reason why they drafted Kirk I believe. Jay was still more of a shooting guard than a point guard. He was a scorer first, passer second.</div> I honestly don't think if Chicago had Williams and Crawford, they would have drafted a 3rd PG in Hinrich. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Crawford has always been a scorer first. Passing takes a back seat to him when it comes to scoring. He's always been a scoring guard. His instincts don't tell him to pass, they never really have. He is a scorer. When you're a scorer, you're going to shoot. He didn't start shooting more because the Knicks needed him to, he shot more because that's what he does. You want a prime example, look at Chicago last year. They had two other people capable of scoring in Kirk and Eddy (at one point also had Donyell and Rose), and Crawford was still taking the bulk of the shots. He's never going to be a pass first player. No matter where he goes, he's going to be a scorer in his mind.</div> I vast majority of the NBA's floor generals have a shoot first/pass second mentality. That doesn't mean that they aren't good, or shouldn't be a PG. Crawford can find his teammates well. Many of the times, such as last year, and this season, he has been playing more SG. An interesting statistic is when Crawford was playing PG in the begining of his career, he increased his assists per game from 2.4 to 4.2 in just 4 more minutes of play.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post"> I vast majority of the NBA's floor generals have a shoot first/pass second mentality. That doesn't mean that they aren't good, or shouldn't be a PG. Crawford can find his teammates well. Many of the times, such as last year, and this season, he has been playing more SG. An interesting statistic is when Crawford was playing PG in the begining of his career, he increased his assists per game from 2.4 to 4.2 in just 4 more minutes of play.</div> I have a nice little stat for you....well....a couple actually. First and foremost, Crawford averaged 2.11 turnovers per game at the SG spot. Meaning, he turns the ball over a lot, despite it not always being in his hands. Now imagine him having the ball everytime down the court, that might not be too pretty. You point out that his assists went up with just an additional 4 mpg. For one, the season before he only played 23 games, and anything could have happened in those additional 59 that he missed. Another thing to note that, is in that year that he did average 4.2 apg, he wasn't asked to score a lot at that time. That year they had players like Jalen Rose (22.2 ppg), Donyell Marshall (13.4 ppg), Eddy Curry (10.5 ppg), Tyson Chandler (9.2 ppg), and Jay Williams (9.5 ppg), so him scoring wasn't an absolute necessity. The next year, they traded away Jalen Rose and Donyell for JYD and AD out of Toronto. Jay Williams had the horrendus accident. Tyson was hurt and never really figured out his role when he wasn't. Curry still was developing. And to top it all off, Hinrich was drafted to relieve Crawford of potential point guard duties. He was never going to be the point guard though, assuming that Jay had never been hurt (hence why they used their pick on him that year). It's highly unlikely they'd have started him over someone like Jay who was more fit to do the job. Once he was gone though and they traded all those guys away and drafted Kirk, he was moved to the SG where he was asked to be a scorer because that's what he had always done best, his contributions were just never needed as much. Then he comes to New York with his nice $60 million contract (can you say overpaid?). What does he do? Averages a career high in points in 17.7 ppg. Sure, that's good. But then you see his 39.8% from the floor and jacks up 512 treys and only attempted 1097 fgs. Almost half of his shots were from behind the arc. So, are you going to sit there and tell me that he's not selfish with stats like that. He's not fit to play point. He's too erratic. He's three point happy. He turns the ball over too much. He's selfish. And beyond all that, he just doesn't know how to play it. So, aside from his 1.8 apg increase between a year he was hurt and the next year where scoring wasn't a necessity from him, that will prove he can and knows how to play point, I'd like to see it. Cause all facts and stats show that he doesn't know how to play point if his life depended on it. All he knows how to do is shoot (15.7 attempts per game) and jack up threes. So please, go for it, show me something that proves he knows how to play the point, cause I don't see anything that points towards that direction.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">I have a nice little stat for you....well....a couple actually. First and foremost, Crawford averaged 2.11 turnovers per game at the SG spot. Meaning, he turns the ball over a lot, despite it not always being in his hands. Now imagine him having the ball everytime down the court, that might not be too pretty.</div> Well the ball is in Crawford's hands a lot. It's not like he is set up for jumpshots most of the times. Also his turnovers are in part due to his minutes that he gets. There are few players I know who play 35+ minutes who don't turn the ball over twice a game. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You point out that his assists went up with just an additional 4 mpg. For one, the season before he only played 23 games, and anything could have happened in those additional 59 that he missed. Another thing to note that, is in that year that he did average 4.2 apg, he wasn't asked to score a lot at that time. That year they had players like Jalen Rose (22.2 ppg), Donyell Marshall (13.4 ppg), Eddy Curry (10.5 ppg), Tyson Chandler (9.2 ppg), and Jay Williams (9.5 ppg), so him scoring wasn't an absolute necessity.</div> True, but his rookie year there was an improvement from there as well. The point I'm trying to make is he plays much better when playing PG. Exactly, he wasn't asked to score, and when he wasn't, he gave you 4.2 assists in 25 minutes. On the Knicks, he was asked to pick up the slack for Houston. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> The next year, they traded away Jalen Rose and Donyell for JYD and AD out of Toronto. Jay Williams had the horrendus accident. Tyson was hurt and never really figured out his role when he wasn't. Curry still was developing. And to top it all off, Hinrich was drafted to relieve Crawford of potential point guard duties. He was never going to be the point guard though, assuming that Jay had never been hurt (hence why they used their pick on him that year). It's highly unlikely they'd have started him over someone like Jay who was more fit to do the job. Once he was gone though and they traded all those guys away and drafted Kirk, he was moved to the SG where he was asked to be a scorer because that's what he had always done best, his contributions were just never needed as much.</div> You're right again. Crawford was taken out of his natural position at the PG to be a scorer. I also remember Jay Williams losing his spot to Jamal Crawford that season too. Let me ask you this: Do you think Williams was a player suited for the PG position? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Then he comes to New York with his nice $60 million contract (can you say overpaid?). What does he do? Averages a career high in points in 17.7 ppg. Sure, that's good. But then you see his 39.8% from the floor and jacks up 512 treys and only attempted 1097 fgs. Almost half of his shots were from behind the arc. So, are you going to sit there and tell me that he's not selfish with stats like that. He's not fit to play point. He's too erratic. He's three point happy. He turns the ball over too much. He's selfish. And beyond all that, he just doesn't know how to play it. So, aside from his 1.8 apg increase between a year he was hurt and the next year where scoring wasn't a necessity from him, that will prove he can and knows how to play point, I'd like to see it. Cause all facts and stats show that he doesn't know how to play point if his life depended on it. All he knows how to do is shoot (15.7 attempts per game) and jack up threes. So please, go for it, show me something that proves he knows how to play the point, cause I don't see anything that points towards that direction.</div> I don?t think he?s overpaid. He?s got a good upside and all because he had a bad year, that doesn?t make up for the other 6 years he can have great years. Well as I said before, he?s playing out of position. He?s 6?5 at a generous 190 forced to play bigger and stronger guards on a regular basis. Many of the shots he takes are bad ones because sometimes that?s the only way to get them off playing against bigger players. Despite the treys he jacks up, he makes sure to hit 36.1% of them which I believe is above the league average. That?s pretty solid. Although he is nowhere near to being as clutch as Houston was, he has helped us during crunch time here and there. It also appears as if you?re blinded by the stat sheet. To determine selfishness you don?t look at the boxscore, you watch the players. You yourself called Stephon Marbury selfish when he averages 8.1 assists on a more than solid 46.2% from the field. If that?s the case, than Jason Kidd must be somewhat selfish as well. He averages 14.4 points 8.3 assists and shoots the same percentage as Crawford. While Crawford is forced to play out of position just to try and put points on the board, Kidd isn?t and is putting up that horrible percentage. You?re stats are based on a year he was playing mostly SG and than calling him selfish based on some of the tough shots that he takes. All I can say is from what I?ve seen from Knick games and I?ve seen an unselfish player. When he does get time at the PG every now and then, the team runs smoothly and he finds his teammates.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post"> You're right again. Crawford was taken out of his natural position at the PG to be a scorer. I also remember Jay Williams losing his spot to Jamal Crawford that season too. Let me ask you this: Do you think Williams was a player suited for the PG position?</div> Yes, I do believe that Jay Williams was better suited for the point guard spot there. He averaged a stellar 4.7 apg as a rookie while splitting time with Crawford that year. Beyond that, in college (yea, I know, it's JUST college) he averaged 6.0 apg in 108 games at Duke. The other thing I note about Crawford is that, between this year and last year, his assists went down even though he was actually asked to do LESS scoring. In Chicago, he was the top option. There were no ifs, ands, or buts about it, he was the #1 man there. Then he goes to NY, asked to score less, instead however, his assists go down and points and minutes increase. To me, that shows a selfish player. However, it's unfortunate that to this day we have not seen what kind of point guard Jay could actually have been because of that accident. We may find out soon enough if someone gives him the chance, but it's not likely he's going to be what he once was. So, to really answer that question any better is very difficult, seeing as how he's only played one year. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">True, but his rookie year there was an improvement from there as well. The point I'm trying to make is he plays much better when playing PG. Exactly, he wasn't asked to score, and when he wasn't, he gave you 4.2 assists in 25 minutes. On the Knicks, he was asked to pick up the slack for Houston</div> Of course it's going to go up when you only get 17 mpg as a rookie. An increase of almost 8 mpg is quite a bit of time to get in a couple more assists. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don?t think he?s overpaid. He?s got a good upside and all because he had a bad year, that doesn?t make up for the other 6 years he can have great years. Well as I said before, he?s playing out of position. He?s 6?5 at a generous 190 forced to play bigger and stronger guards on a regular basis. Many of the shots he takes are bad ones because sometimes that?s the only way to get them off playing against bigger players. Despite the treys he jacks up, he makes sure to hit 36.1% of them which I believe is above the league average. That?s pretty solid. Although he is nowhere near to being as clutch as Houston was, he has helped us during crunch time here and there. It also appears as if you?re blinded by the stat sheet. To determine selfishness you don?t look at the boxscore, you watch the players. You yourself called Stephon Marbury selfish when he averages 8.1 assists on a more than solid 46.2% from the field. If that?s the case, than Jason Kidd must be somewhat selfish as well. He averages 14.4 points 8.3 assists and shoots the same percentage as Crawford. While Crawford is forced to play out of position just to try and put points on the board, Kidd isn?t and is putting up that horrible percentage. You?re stats are based on a year he was playing mostly SG and than calling him selfish based on some of the tough shots that he takes. All I can say is from what I?ve seen from Knick games and I?ve seen an unselfish player. When he does get time at the PG every now and then, the team runs smoothly and he finds his teammates.</div> Explain to me how he's not overpaid? To me, he's not really done much of anything to deserve that $10 mil he makes every year. No team he's ever been on has been a winner. He takes a lot of bad shots. He doesn't even hit 40% of what he takes. I don't see what's so great about him personally. And by the way, Crawford does not have to take bad shots. I don't believe there is any rule stating this. He takes them because he chooses to. He's not a good decision maker at all, which is another reason why he would make a terrible point guard. He doesn't have to jack up those shots though. He could just as easily dish the ball to someone else instead of forcing up a long jumper. That's why I call him selfish. To me, when you jack up an unnecessary bad shot, that's selfishness. You can just as easily pass it up as you can shoot it, hell, sometimes passing might actually take less effort. But that's what I don't get, you think he's so great and unselfish, yet you openly admit he takes a lot of bad shots, and beyond that, hardly makes any of them. A sign of a selfish player is not always the amount of shots you take, but the quality of the ones you take. He never takes many good ones. Instead of creating with dribble drives, which he's more than capable and quick enough to do, he jacks up stupid jump shots. To me, that's selfish.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes, I do believe that Jay Williams was better suited for the point guard spot there. He averaged a stellar 4.7 apg as a rookie while splitting time with Crawford that year. Beyond that, in college (yea, I know, it's JUST college) he averaged 6.0 apg in 108 games at Duke. The other thing I note about Crawford is that, between this year and last year, his assists went down even though he was actually asked to do LESS scoring. In Chicago, he was the top option. There were no ifs, ands, or buts about it, he was the #1 man there. Then he goes to NY, asked to score less, instead however, his assists go down and points and minutes increase. To me, that shows a selfish player. However, it's unfortunate that to this day we have not seen what kind of point guard Jay could actually have been because of that accident. We may find out soon enough if someone gives him the chance, but it's not likely he's going to be what he once was. So, to really answer that question any better is very difficult, seeing as how he's only played one year.</div> But Williams shot only one less attempt per game than Jamal Crawford and on top of that, he averaged an even lower percentage. He failed to shoot over 39.9% from the field. Also since you like bringing up turnovers so much, he averaged 2.28 turnovers in 26.1 minutes per game. How was Crawford asked to do less scoring if he was playing SG? Originally, Crawford was supposed to be a 6th man. When Houston went down for the whole season, he was asked to pick up the slack. How would his assists numbers go up if he is rarely playing PG and he already has Marbury dishing out 8.1 assists per game? If anything if you manage to get 4.3 assists per game playing out of position and have Marbury dishing out almost half of the teams assists, it?s a good thing. I liked Jay Williams a lot and it was indeed unfortunate what happened to him. I wish him the best and hopefully he can recover and although he might not be on the level he once was on, I think he can still make a difference on a team. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Explain to me how he's not overpaid? To me, he's not really done much of anything to deserve that $10 mil he makes every year. No team he's ever been on has been a winner. He takes a lot of bad shots. He doesn't even hit 40% of what he takes. I don't see what's so great about him personally.</div> He doesn?t get 10 million until the last year of his contract. So it?s not that much. Jamal Crawford has potential and all he needs is time and I think he can be an all-star in the near future. He has shown us flashes of potential for example when he dropped 50 points on the Raptors last season, or when he had two 40 point games this season. Also he is constantly learning and thrives off criticism of his game by the coaches. The only time Crawford has had a full season at the point was when he was in his 3rd year in Chicago and managed to average 10.7 points and 4.2 assists in 24.9 minutes. That?s pretty solid and he was only going to get better. If Marbury gets traded and Crawford has full floor general duties, than I think he will put up better numbers. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And by the way, Crawford does not have to take bad shots. I don't believe there is any rule stating this. He takes them because he chooses to. He's not a good decision maker at all, which is another reason why he would make a terrible point guard. He doesn't have to jack up those shots though. He could just as easily dish the ball to someone else instead of forcing up a long jumper. That's why I call him selfish. To me, when you jack up an unnecessary bad shot, that's selfishness. You can just as easily pass it up as you can shoot it, hell, sometimes passing might actually take less effort. But that's what I don't get, you think he's so great and unselfish, yet you openly admit he takes a lot of bad shots, and beyond that, hardly makes any of them. A sign of a selfish player is not always the amount of shots you take, but the quality of the ones you take. He never takes many good ones. Instead of creating with dribble drives, which he's more than capable and quick enough to do, he jacks up stupid jump shots. To me, that's selfish.</div> But many of the time Crawford has bigger and stronger players on him. What else can he do? Try shooting it over the player and getting it blocked? Sometimes those little jukes are the only way he can score. He?s 6?5, 190 pounds! Crawford was a bit confused with his role. He tried his best to put points on the board, but most of the nights he was at a disadvantage. I think him taking some bad shots shows he?s trying to do too much. I don?t think it shows a sign of selfishness, but a desire to win. Despite him fitting into your selfishness categories, whenever we put him at the PG, he?s done a good job for us and that?s the only thing that matters, right?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">But Williams shot only one less attempt per game than Jamal Crawford and on top of that, he averaged an even lower percentage. He failed to shoot over 39.9% from the field. Also since you like bringing up turnovers so much, he averaged 2.28 turnovers in 26.1 minutes per game. How was Crawford asked to do less scoring if he was playing SG? Originally, Crawford was supposed to be a 6th man. When Houston went down for the whole season, he was asked to pick up the slack. How would his assists numbers go up if he is rarely playing PG and he already has Marbury dishing out 8.1 assists per game? If anything if you manage to get 4.3 assists per game playing out of position and have Marbury dishing out almost half of the teams assists, it?s a good thing. I liked Jay Williams a lot and it was indeed unfortunate what happened to him. I wish him the best and hopefully he can recover and although he might not be on the level he once was on, I think he can still make a difference on a team.</div> I highly doubt that he was brought over to be the 6th man. You're not going to shell out $60 mil for a player to come off the bench for you. That doesn't make sense. I think they brought him over because they realized that Houston is nearing the end of his career. He's lost a step and he hasn't been healthy over the last 2 seasons (played in only 70 games out of 164). They brought him over to add youth and to replace an Allan Houston who is becoming less and less effective. And if not, they at least had intentions of starting him at the shooting guard and moving Allan over to the small forward. Either way though, he was going to start. You don't pay someone that much money to sit on the bench. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He doesn?t get 10 million until the last year of his contract. So it?s not that much. Jamal Crawford has potential and all he needs is time and I think he can be an all-star in the near future. He has shown us flashes of potential for example when he dropped 50 points on the Raptors last season, or when he had two 40 point games this season. Also he is constantly learning and thrives off criticism of his game by the coaches. The only time Crawford has had a full season at the point was when he was in his 3rd year in Chicago and managed to average 10.7 points and 4.2 assists in 24.9 minutes. That?s pretty solid and he was only going to get better. If Marbury gets traded and Crawford has full floor general duties, than I think he will put up better numbers.</div> Crawford has had a lot of time. He's been a full time starter the last two years and was the 6th man in his first few years. How much more time does he really need? He's on 5 years of experience now. He's 25. He's not going to get much better, even though he is still young. And you're right, he has shown flashes. He has had some good games. However, he's inconsistent. In his game with 41 earlier this year, he followed that with a 17 pt game (5/18 fgs), then an 8 pt game (2/10 fgs), a 10 pt game (4/12 fgs), before he finally had another solid night, scoring and shooting, with 31 pts (11/19 fgs). That's my big problem with him. He's been like that his entire career. Explode one night than disappear for countless nights in a row. Until he learns how to be consistent, he's never going to be a great player or an all star. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But many of the time Crawford has bigger and stronger players on him. What else can he do? Try shooting it over the player and getting it blocked? Sometimes those little jukes are the only way he can score. He?s 6?5, 190 pounds! Crawford was a bit confused with his role. He tried his best to put points on the board, but most of the nights he was at a disadvantage. I think him taking some bad shots shows he?s trying to do too much. I don?t think it shows a sign of selfishness, but a desire to win. Despite him fitting into your selfishness categories, whenever we put him at the PG, he?s done a good job for us and that?s the only thing that matters, right?</div> I have a thought for you. You claim here that the reason why Crawford takes bad shots is because those are the only ones he can get with his size. Well, Rip Hamilton is the same size roughly, has about 2 inches on him but only weighs in at 193. He however, shoots closer to 45%, which is very good for a guard in this league. You know why? Cause he doesn't take bad shots. He works off the ball to get his. He works off screens and picks to get openings. He doesn't try to use his quickness to get everything like Crawford. And, if he doesn't have the shot, he doesn't always take it. He knows how to make good decisions. Crawford should take a look at him to see how to get openings. So that in itself shows that, just because you're underweight, it doesn't mean a damn thing. You don't have to continually try to create and just jack up a bad shot even if you don't get an open one. So I really don't buy you're "he's at a disadvantage cause of his weight" argument. Hamilton is at a disadvantage every night because of it, but you don't see him jacking up a three or any other shot every time down the court even if he isn't open.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">I highly doubt that he was brought over to be the 6th man. You're not going to shell out $60 mil for a player to come off the bench for you. That doesn't make sense. I think they brought him over because they realized that Houston is nearing the end of his career. He's lost a step and he hasn't been healthy over the last 2 seasons (played in only 70 games out of 164). They brought him over to add youth and to replace an Allan Houston who is becoming less and less effective. And if not, they at least had intentions of starting him at the shooting guard and moving Allan over to the small forward. Either way though, he was going to start. You don't pay someone that much money to sit on the bench. </div> I'm sorry but I had to laugh. "You're not going to shell out $60 mil for a player to come off the bench for you." We're talking about the Knicks here! We give out big bucks to our role players who dont get more than 10 minutes a game. Why wouldnt we dish out 60 million dollars to our sixth man?? If Houston had been healthy Crawford would have definetely been coming off the bench for the very reasons you mentioned above.(bad shot selection, inconsistency, etc...). You cant have a starting shooting guard with those kinds of issues. Houston starting at the small forward was an interesting thought but was dropped because of the defensive problems it would have caused. Crawford was brought over to provide a spark off the bench(like Bobby Jackson is for the Kings), as insurance if Houston wasnt healthy and when he got older and more mature to one day replace Houston. But it was pretty much a fact that Crawford was going to come off the bench. The only people who thought Crawford was going to start were the people who make basketball videogames. I dont think Crawford would do as bad of a job as you say he would running the point. But you were right when you said Crawford wont be the type of point guard that would help Sweetney flourish. So does anyone know any decent point guards that will be free agents at the end of the season and would take the MLE? Speedy Claxton perhaps? And there is of course Frank Williams. We can take a look at him to see if he can still start for us. I really liked that Marbury for Jamaal Magloire and PJ Brown trade idea. Would the Hornets actually agree to that? And sorry again Moo2K4... Anyway I think Isiah Thomas should be fired.
Speedy Claxton is from NY and would probably love it compared to the horrible situation in New Orleans. Durability is a concern though, but he is fun to watch breaking down defenses and he is pesky on D. He's also clutch. Wasn't Frank Williams already a Knick? Isiah must not have thought highly of him because he was slow and lacked shooting range even though he was a good playmaker. At least he passed and play defense, though! I don't know if Isiah Thomas knows what he's doing in terms of chemistry or defensive presence, but he must have gotten ideas for the roster from playing NBA Live 2005, allstar-weekend edition. You know with the iso-motion, EA Freestyle Air or whatever the heck they call it when you use the analog joy sticks to beat down defenders? Either that or the NY press has played it in franchise mode to come up with new "trade rumors". I hope the Knicks can find some way to get out of this rut. If they can land a good trade, they're backin business. So many ballers from NY, maybe there's some that would like to come back home.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">Speedy Claxton is from NY and would probably love it compared to the horrible situation in New Orleans. Durability is a concern though, but he is fun to watch breaking down defenses and he is pesky on D. He's also clutch. Wasn't Frank Williams already a Knick? Isiah must not have thought highly of him because he was slow and lacked shooting range even though he was a good playmaker. At least he passed and play defense, though! I don't know if Isiah Thomas knows what he's doing in terms of chemistry or defensive presence, but he must have gotten ideas for the roster from playing NBA Live 2005, allstar-weekend edition. You know with the iso-motion, EA Freestyle Air or whatever the heck they call it when you use the analog joy sticks to beat down defenders? Either that or the NY press has played it in franchise mode to come up with new "trade rumors". I hope the Knicks can find some way to get out of this rut. If they can land a good trade, they're backin business. So many ballers from NY, maybe there's some that would like to come back home.</div> Yup. Those New York point guards are fun to watch. Besides Speedy's ability to attack the basket the thing I like most about him is his defense. But would Speedy take the MLE? That is the question. I think he's a free agent and can probably get more than what we can offer him. Would the prospect of returning back to New York City and possibly starting for the New York Knicks be enough to get him? When Frank Williams first started getting real minutes people in New York were excited about him. Some even wondered if he could be an All Star although that may have been a little premature. Frank Williams wasnt very explosive but he always found a way to break down the defense and never took a bad shot. Good playmaker, good defender, definetely a joy to watch. But Isiah wanted some more "athleticism" in the backcourt so he brought in Marbury which of course crushed Williams' development. Then finally traded him for some more "athleticism" in Crawford. Isiah Thomas is a clown. There's nothing more that needs to be said. I hope we get out of this rut too. I'm sick of all the damn losing. If we trade Marbury we'll be back in business. What do you think of Marbury for PJ Brown and Magloire? Think that'll do the trick? By the way I hope Golden State plays next season like they played towards the end of this season. I like watching them when I can. Anyway I think Isiah Thomas should be fired.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post"> If we trade Marbury we'll be back in business. What do you think of Marbury for PJ Brown and Magloire? Think that'll do the trick? By the way I hope Golden State plays next season like they played towards the end of this season. I like watching them when I can. Anyway I think Isiah Thomas should be fired.</div> That's right, Frank Williams was involved in that Chicago trade. I bet Chicago didn't even want him and he was just filler. As for Magloire/PJ Brown trade for Starbury, I can see it happening on the condition that Atlanta goes for Chris Paul, rather than Bogut. New Orleans drafts Bogut, signs former LSU forward Stromile Swift or some FA face-up shooting power forward, retains Bostjan Nachbar for one more year, develops J.R. Smith by finding him a mentor 2 guard and then adding Steph. So: pg - Stephon Marbury sg - J.R. Smith sf - Boki Nachbar pf - Stromile Swift c - Andrew Bogut Might be able to throw in Kevin Willis as a mentor for Andrew Bogut or some old tough veteran center that can keep him positive. For the Knicks, it's pg - Speedy Claxton (FA) or Damon Stoudamire (FA) or Nick Van Exel (FA - may not retire) sg - Jamal Crawford, Allan Houston (If he ever gets healthy) or Penny Hardaway sf - Tim Thomas pf - Mike Sweetney c - Jamaal Magloire So the shooting guard spot doesn't look too sexy and neither does point guard, but a few sign and trades or extra draft picks or trading the #8 pick might help. Maybe look to Miami to land a shooting guard? If NY gives Miami what they need in a power forward (probably one that Isiah plans to get rid of anyway), you're in business to land somebody like Dorell Wright. I know Kurt Thomas has been on the block since like... forever, but nobody bit despite his double doubles. Miami might still try to hold on to Dorell Wright and get Dwayne Wade to play the point guard spot full time or make Wright play some small forward when Wade plays shooting guard. Also Qyntel Woods is worth looking at when you got nothing to lose in terms of finding young scorers. But if I were Miami and needed more points from my power forward and the rebounding and defense to go with it, I'd consider Kurt Thomas next to Shaq, especially if I know Wright is way too raw to even break the current rotation. One more idea: If Starbury absolutely must come off the books and you want an assortment of good players here's something that might help both teams The Lakers trade Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, Chucky Atkins for Stephon Marbury, Mike Sweetney. Lakers re-sign Devean George or FA small forward or promote Jumaine Jones. New York loses low post talent, but they get some decent players in return and a good versatile one in Jamaica Queens-born Lamar Odom, who can play 4 positions. Caron Butler has some resemblance to Paul Pierce, and might turn out to be a star with the right development. Atkins can shoot 3's and pass some and make a fine backup. The Lakers get an allstar point guard in which the unquestionable leader on the floor is still Kobe Bryant and a Zach Randolph like power forward that can play inside. It's a gamble and I'm sure I'm going to get hell for this if someone doesn't like the trade, but take it for what it is, it's just an idea and it doesn't mean squat. The Lakers could use extra guys to create offense for Kobe and a guy like Starbury and Sweetney could do that for him. NY in the meantime, finally has an option to bench Tim Thomas or play him and can get closer to clearing the slate once Houston/Hardaway are off the books. so Lakers pg - Stephon Marbury sg - Kobe Bryant sf - Devean George (re-signed) pf - Mike Sweetney c - Chris Mihm Knicks pg - Chucky Atkins or Speedy Claxton (former HS teammates with Odom) sg - Caron Butler (might strictly be a small forward, but you never know, he has the potential to be a star if you develop him right, he gets to the foul line at least) sf - Tim Thomas pf - Lamar Odom (glue guy) c - Kurt Thomas (rebounder, defender) or pg - Chucky Atkins sg - Jamal Crawford sf - Caron Butler pf - Lamar Odom c - Kurt Thomas or pg - Jamal Crawford sg - Caron Butler sf - Tim Thomas pf - Lamar Odom c - Kurt Thomas You guys need a center in the worst way
Very interesting ideas, CR2. I like a lot of that material. I don't see some of them happening at all, especially not one from NY to LA, huge trades between two enormous markets are getting rare these days. I like your idea about New Orleans though, very well thought out. I've been thinking that Isiah will probably hold onto his trade ammo in Penny and TT till the deadline where anything can happen, nevertheless I liked readin those possibilities.
Being a Laker fan, that's losing WAY too much just to get Marbury. Odom, I could understand, as he's likely to be on the block unless Phil comes in. But Butler is entering his contract year. I myself would like to see what he's capable if he gets to play the #2 guy all year. He showed near the end that he was more than capable of being a 20 pt guy. Plus, he's a good defensive player, and that's definitely something the Lakers need to hang on to. Aside from that, I think Marbury and Kobe would create huge chemistry problems. It'll be Odom/Kobe all over again. They each need the ball to be at their most effective. If one doesn't get it enough, he'll complain and that'll just create all sorts of havoc. It wouldn't work. The chemistry would be absolutely terrible between the two. Plus, it'll put the Lakers in financial hell and it'd make it insanely hard to sign FAs. To me, it just wouldn't work for the Lakers. They need a point guard who's mindset isn't to score. They need a pass first, shoot second guy, someone like Raymond Felton. Steph just isn't that guy. He's selfish to an extent, even though he does average 8 apg. He and Kobe on the court, each demanding the ball and getting their shots, doesn't leave much room for the rest of the players to get their shots in.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">Being a Laker fan, that's losing WAY too much just to get Marbury. Odom, I could understand, as he's likely to be on the block unless Phil comes in. But Butler is entering his contract year. I myself would like to see what he's capable if he gets to play the #2 guy all year. He showed near the end that he was more than capable of being a 20 pt guy. Plus, he's a good defensive player, and that's definitely something the Lakers need to hang on to.</div> I think it's pretty even for everyone. You lose Butler a thriving young player, and we lose Sweetney another thriving young player. When Sweetney gets his minutes he always produces. Once it gets cleared up and he actually gets consistent minutes, he can be a solid 15/8 player next year. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Aside from that, I think Marbury and Kobe would create huge chemistry problems. It'll be Odom/Kobe all over again. They each need the ball to be at their most effective. If one doesn't get it enough, he'll complain and that'll just create all sorts of havoc. It wouldn't work. The chemistry would be absolutely terrible between the two. Plus, it'll put the Lakers in financial hell and it'd make it insanely hard to sign FAs. To me, it just wouldn't work for the Lakers. They need a point guard who's mindset isn't to score. They need a pass first, shoot second guy, someone like Raymond Felton. Steph just isn't that guy. He's selfish to an extent, even though he does average 8 apg. He and Kobe on the court, each demanding the ball and getting their shots, doesn't leave much room for the rest of the players to get their shots in.</div> Marbury is on a higher level than Odom. No, Marbury can create havocs for other teams. With Marbury and Kobe, the defense wouldn?t know which player to go to. Marbury breaks down the defense which will make it much easier for Kobe. Also Marbury usually doesn?t have players as talented around him. With Kobe, Marbury will have a more than legit right hand man to give it to. Also I think you are confusing Marbury early in his career from what he is now. Marbury is more team oriented now. First of all, LA is a big market that will attract FA?s by itself. Second of all, FA?s will gladly sign with a team with two stars. You have a superstar in Kobe Bryant, and a star in Stephon Marbury. That can get a free agent very interested. Third of all, Tim Thomas? huge contract is expiring and that?s 15 million dollars off the books! It can work out very well.
Well look at it this way, Knicks Analyst, both those large market teams seem to be struggling and both can help each out this way if the priority is to unload Starbury's contract and get some versatile, valuable players to replace the ones the Knicks are struggling with at certain positions. ---- Moo2k4, although Lamar Odom is a good rebounder, shotblocker, good playmaker and flat out the best ballhandler/one-on-one player for a guy 6'10, Stephon Marbury can possibly do to the Lakers what Baron has done for the Warriors. He'll make everyone better, get double teamed, break down defenses and do it from the point guard spot. The problem with the Knicks, is they just lack talent, consistency, size and that has a lot to do with the questionable moves made by Zeke and the salary cap hell situation which makes it so they can't sign big FA's and also nobody wants those large contracts until they expire. Just like Baron Davis on the oft injured Hornets squad he appeared more selfish than he really was because there was no consistent or reliable offense. Now that Bdiddy has Jason Richardson instead of David Wesley and Mike Dunleavy's passing instead of Jamal Mashburn, he can get the team to win by doing his job which is to set up other people, get the team to share the ball and not be pressured about scoring so much. Plus, if you look at Marbury's fg% and his assist numbers, they're pretty reliable. Again, I think he's more unselfish than he appears, but he's the clutchest guy on his team so he has to step up when the Knicks can't hold it down on defense or offense. For his career, he's been on a lot of losing teams that don't play much defense or haven't had great shooting guards. Knicks were one of them, the Suns were one of them, and I can't remember who the Wolves had, but an allstar two guard like Bryant could make a difference when either Marbury or Kobe can get doubled and find the open jump shooter like Devean George or Jumaine Jones or Brian Cook or feed it inside to either Chris Mihm or Mike Sweetney or get to the line and get fouled. You got to give up something in order to get something, but if the contract size/length scares off Jerry Buss/Mitch Kupchack, I wouldn't blame them. Suns really overspent and Isiah must have been delusional before the trade about getting rid of Allan Houston and Penny Hardaway's monstrous contracts and giving up his rookies. Let's not also forget then the next season he took on another high volume shooting, underweight combo guard, picked up Moochie Norris (then traded him) and traded Keith Van Horn to get Nazr Mohammed (which he traded this year for a late first rounder and a bad smaller contract, decreasing the Knicks size even more) and Tim Thomas (a guy who simply doesn't understand what the coach wants him to do and proves to be more inconsistent at shooting and less versatile than KVH). The list goes on, which is why I feel for Knicks fans who just want to nuke the franchise and start over because Isiah makes too many moves and doesn't seem to have a plan. But with some NY natives, some promising rookies who get "their own team", and some valuable role players, I think it's fair because they give up Mike Sweetney who is a promising, inside talent. BTW, when I play yahoo fantasy basketball I am like Isiah when it comes to trading players I just traded for, but that's only because I get unlimited moves and don't have to worry about lengthy contracts, chemistry, continuty or improving/planning ahead for next season. Isiah does. I feel bad for the fans of the team he helped destroy, because I'm a Warriors fan. Isiah has one shot and that's to build on some young talented players through the draft and hold onto those expiring contracts so he can land somebody big that wants to play for New York.
Not to go OT, since this is Knick forum...But the Lakers don't need Marbury unless u plan on moving him to the two and Kobe to the three. The Lakers need a good defensive, real (or something better than Marbury) PG.
Marbury is a great pointguard I don't even know why it is being discussed of him being traded. I'm sure he is untouchable in reality for the Knicks. I had him on my fantasy roster for the last couple years and he has been awesome!
