You will decide which team moves on. Who would win in a head-to-head matchup, who would come out victorious in the battle of the greatest NBA players to ever walk the earth? Let's find out... Make your vote and give a brief explanation, otherwise it will not be counted. So let's get started!! :dribble: <div align="center"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">GArenas 2 CelticFan 2</span></div>Starting LineupsGArenasC: Dikembe Mutumbo 10.1 ppg, 10.6 rpg, 2.8 bpgPF: Patrick Ewing 21.0 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 2.4 bpgSF: Scottie Pippen 16.1 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 5.2 apg, 2.0 spgSG: Bernard King 22.5 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 3.3 apgPG: Magic Johnson 19.5 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 11.2 apg, 1.9 spgCelticFanC: Wilt Chamberlain 30.1 ppg, 22.9 rpg, 4.4 apgPF: Charles Barkley 22.1 ppg, 11.7 rpg, 3.9 apg, 1.5 spgSF: Dirk Nowitzki 22.3 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 2.6 apgSG: Hal Greer 19.2 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 4.0 apgPG: Isiah Thomas 19.2 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 9.3 apg, 1.9 spgFull RostersGArenasPG Magic Johnson: 6'8" 215lbs.PG Rod Strickland: 6'3" 175lbs.PG Gilbert Arenas: 6'3" 191lbs.SG Scottie Pippen: 6'7" 210lbs.SG Allan Houston: 6'6" 200lbs.SF Bernard King: 6'7" 205lbs.SF Tracy McGrady: 6'8" 210lbs.PF Patrick Ewing: 7'0" 240lbs.PF Shawn Kemp: 6'10" 230lbs.PF Chris Bosh: 6'10" 228lbs.C Dikembe Mutombo: 7'2" 245lbs.C Vlade Divac: 7'1" 243lbs.CelticFanPG Isiah Thomas: 6'1" 180lbs.PG Gail Goodrich: 6'1" 170lbs.SG Vince Carter: 6'7" 215lbs.SG Hal Greer: 6'2" 175lbs.SG Mitch Richmond: 6'5" 215lbs.SF Alex English: 6'7" 190lbs.SF Dirk Nowitzki: 6'11" 237lbs.SF Reggie Lewis: 6'7" 195lbs.PF Charles Barkley: 6'6" 252lbs.PF Dolph Schayes: 6'7" 195lbs.C Wilt Chamberlain: 7'1" 275lbs.C Dave Cowens: 6'9" 230lbs.
My vote is GArenas. I feel his team has a better mix of offensive and defensive players. He also has more depth and talent at each of the positions. I feel Magic would have an advantage on the defensive end because of his size guarding a 6'1 Isiah Thomas. Alex English was a very prolific scorer back in the day, but Bernard King was the same way. They both could score in many ways, and they were underrated SGs of their time. In all honestly, I think there's no way in blue hell Dirk can play SF.. he just isn't mobile/quick enough to keep up with faster SFs and he would be guarded on the perimeter even more, unlike the PFs that guard him regularly. Especially going up against an all-time top ten man-to-man defender in Scottie Pippen. Ewing and Kemp both have an extreme height advantage to Barkley and Schayes.. Wilt would probably score on Mutumbo easily 90% of the time, but GA's center position has a mix of good scoring, passing, rebounding, shot-blocking, and post defense. Overall, GA's team is more bigger, talented, and I think more well-known today.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (808Hornetsfan @ Jul 25 2007, 09:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Starting LineupsGArenasC: Dikembe Mutumbo PF: Patrick EwingSF: Bernard KingSG: Scottie PippenPG: Magic Johnson</div>I don't mean to be a pain but, Bernard King starts at SG and Scottie Pippen starts at SF.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>My vote is GArenas. I feel his team has a better mix of offensive and defensive players. He also has more depth and talent at each of the positions. I feel Magic would have an advantage on the defensive end because of his size guarding a 6'1 Isiah Thomas. Alex English was a very prolific scorer back in the day, but Bernard King was the same way. They both could score in many ways, and they were underrated SGs of their time. In all honestly, I think there's no way in blue hell Dirk can play SF.. he just isn't mobile/quick enough to keep up with faster SFs and he would be guarded on the perimeter even more, unlike the PFs that guard him regularly. Especially going up against an all-time top ten man-to-man defender in Scottie Pippen. Ewing and Kemp both have an extreme height advantage to Barkley and Schayes.. Wilt would probably score on Mutumbo easily 90% of the time, but GA's center position has a mix of good scoring, passing, rebounding, shot-blocking, and post defense. Overall, GA's team is more bigger, talented, and I think more well-known today.</div>Thanks for the vote Zards,
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (808Hornetsfan @ Jul 25 2007, 10:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Edit: I updated the staring lineup for GArenas</div>Thanks :dribble: When is the deadline for this?
Alex English is a SF.Hal Greer is my starting SGhttp://www.nba.com/history/players/greer_summary.htmlu know, one of the 50 greatest players of all time.Reggie and Vince as swing players, I moved Vince as my back up SG.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zards @ Jul 25 2007, 09:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Overall, GA's team is more bigger, talented, and I think more well-known today.</div>great, so I lose a vote to blissful ignorance..nicely done.
hmmmfound this on nba.com for dolph schayes sizehttp://www.nba.com/history/players/schayes_summary.html
Honestly, Ima have to go with CelticFan. It doesn't matter to me that GArenas' players are more well-known today. Now, let me go down the line hereoint GuardGArenas clearly has the edge here; with the best point guard in NBA history running his offense. Not only that, but all of his 1's were known as very good passers. Rod Strickland was a pretty good pick; he was a good scorer and passer. CelticFan has two very good Old School point guards; with Isiah as the floor general and Goodrich bringing the scoring punch, but I still believe GArenas' point guards trump those of CelticFan's.Shooting GuardI'm gonna have to go with CelticFan here. Alex English was the Kobe Bryant of the 80's; arguably the best scorer of that decade. He was also quite a good rebounder and defender. Hal Greer was a pretty good combo guard in the earlier days, and Mitch Richmond was one of the 90's most forgotten scorers/shooters; he was invited to quite a few All-Star games and had very good seasons with the Kings. GArenas on the other hand has Bernard King leading the twos, a guy that was up there with English in the 80s but not seen as the better player IMO. On the bench, Allan Houston had his seasons but was widely seen as only good on the offensive side of the ball.Small ForwardGArenas has one of the best small forwards in NBA history here in Scottie Pippen, who was great one-on-one defensively and scored/rebounded at a very good clip as well. Backing him up, there is Tracy McGrady, a great offensive superstar of today but hasn't really gotten anywhere in the playoffs so far in his career. On the other side, CelticFan has Dirk Nowitzki running the three, which is not bad offensively because he would be able to exploit the opposing small forward (Pippen) in the post and all over the court because of his height, but defensively he would be a liability. Behind him is Reggie Lewis, who was a consistent 20 PPG scorer for the few seasons he played in the NBA before collapsing in a Hornets playoff game and passing away soon after (RIP), and Vince Carter who is a good scorer. I'll have to hand this one to GArenasPower ForwardThis one goes to CelticFan. Tough one; Patrick Ewing was a threat defensively and offensively and Shawn Kemp was an extremely athletic 4. Chris Bosh is an up and coming star in the post. But, CelticFan does have two Hall of Famers in Schayes and Barkley who are undersized by today's standards and were great rebounders and overall threats in the post. CenterWilt Chamberlain is the 2nd best player in NBA history without a doubt, which gives this to CelticFan.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noballer07 @ Jul 25 2007, 10:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>CenterWilt Chamberlain is the 2nd best player in NBA history without a doubt, which gives this to CelticFan.</div>Wilt would struggle against Ewing and Mutumbo in the post. I knew one of my matchup's would likely pick a powerhouse center which is why I selected two tough Post defenders.BTW, I disagree with Barkley/Schayes being better than Ewing/Kemp/Bosh.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GArenas @ Jul 25 2007, 09:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wilt would struggle against Ewing and Mutumbo in the post. I knew one of my matchup's would likely pick a powerhouse center which is why I selected two tough Post defenders.</div>I know that, but head to head theres just no trump player for Wilt; he's the best center of all-time. They'd give him a hard time, but still- he's the best player out of them all.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noballer07 @ Jul 25 2007, 10:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I know that, but head to head theres just no trump player for Wilt; he's the best center of all-time. They'd give him a hard time, but still- he's the best player out of them all.</div>Wilt was never matched up against the modern era center. This is one of the main concern's about Chamberlain, the fact that the only great defensive center he ever was matched up against was Russel. Two dominant post defenders will give any center a tough time, it doesn't matter who it is.But w/e, you already casted your vote so it doesn't matter.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticFan @ Jul 25 2007, 06:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Alex English is a SF.Hal Greer is my starting SGhttp://www.nba.com/history/players/greer_summary.htmlu know, one of the 50 greatest players of all time.Reggie and Vince as swing players, I moved Vince as my back up SG.great, so I lose a vote to blissful ignorance..nicely done.</div>Do you want Dirk or Alex starting at SF? BTW stats will be updated momentarily.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticFan @ Jul 25 2007, 10:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Reggie and Vince as swing players, I moved Vince as my back up SG.great, so I lose a vote to blissful ignorance..nicely done.</div>I think I explained my other points pretty thoughtfully, how come you don't quote those?
GA takes it for me. He has the overall deeper team and has a lot of offensive weapons while still being a good defensive team. I also like his starting lineup slightly over Celtic's. As previously mentioned too, Dirk at SF is a bit of a stretch.
First off, I think my bench KILLS GA's bench.besides T-Mac and perhaps Vlade, they're all good not great players.Houston was a nice shooter but he only did it over a few years due to injuries.Rod Strick was a nice PG but he never lead a strong winner and that's what a PG does.Arenas hasn't show all that he can do, he's a killer scorer but he's only been in the limelight 3 years. His avgs would be high compaired to the old timers because he hasn't played through those diminishing years.Ditto Bosh, has a long career a head of him but he hasn't accomplished much yet.Kemp took several years to harness his athletic skills and had some monster years, but he's no HOF'er.Barkley would KILL Ewing by taking him out of the paint and either hitting his J or driving by.On defense Dirk would have the size to guard Ewing and Barkely can make Pippen do what he did the least best, shoot off the dribble. Mutombo gets eaten alive by Wilt and Barkley or Dirk make Pip and Ewing pay for doubling down. Wilt had an ego let's not forget and he'd be dying to take on this defensive front line and would want to humble them with his strength, speed and skill.Isiah get's in trouble in the post but don't forget his heart and determination. He beat Magic and Lakers in the Finals already. He's one of the rare PG's who go beyond the numbers, like Oscar and Magic. SG, I had Hal Greer starting, man is a consistent scorer and was solid on the boards and assists. He's a top 50 all time player and played with Wilt in Philly and still avg 19+ for his career.now my bench.Alex English can light it up like a Christmas tree, he'll score on anyone.Dave Cowens may be undersized at C, but he was one of Kareem's toughest defenders in the 70's when Kareem was dominant. He can play with anyone and his opponent is gonna feel it the next day too. Hard nosed just begins to describe how tough he was.Dolph Schayes is an NBA champion, 6 time 1st team all NBA and one of the 50 greatest players of all time. Dude could flat out play. Different era, but this is an all era match up, where accomplishments during each players era means something. Gail Goodrich was a scoring PG much like Iverson. He led the powerhouse '72 champion Lakers in scoring over Jerry West and Wilt Chamberlin. Mitch Richmond was solid and tough as nails. He was part of the fun G-State team that has RUN-TMC (Tim hardaway, Mitch Richmond, Chris Mullin) and avg over 21 ppg for the first 10 years of his career.Vince Carter is an athletic freak and when determined impossible to stop (see his 1999-2001 years for proof) He's proven to be clutch when his head is in the game and that's enough for me.Last but not least, Reggie Lewis. A tragedy what happened to this man, but when he was playing, wow was he solid. Had the mid-range pull up jumper, could drive, defend and was certainly one of the top 5 SG/SF's in the league at the time (MJ, Clyde, Mitch Richmond would be the ones ahead of him)GA's got the more recent stars, but the guys I picked accomplished more during their careers.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zards @ Jul 25 2007, 10:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think I explained my other points pretty thoughtfully, how come you don't quote those? </div>because at the end, you admit your ignorance.. nullifying your other points IMO.you don't know hardly enough about my players and what they have accomplished in their careers.this is not pick a bunch of current athletes and say they're more atheltic.It's pick the players who were top dogs in their era and did something.Hal Greer is better than Kemp, Houston, Arenas, Strickland, Divac and Bosh.WHY?Because he's a champion, a HOF'er and was voted one of the top 50 players of all time.he's a more accomplished player. is he as athletic.. probably not and if we had a time machine of course he couldn't keep up with todays players because training and therefore the athleticism of the sport was different back then.get the old school players training, eating and a chance to get used to today's game and the HOF'ers would adjust and do fine.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticFan @ Jul 25 2007, 11:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>First off, I think my bench KILLS GA's bench.besides T-Mac and perhaps Vlade, they're all good not great players.Houston was a nice shooter but he only did it over a few years due to injuries.Rod Strick was a nice PG but he never lead a strong winner and that's what a PG does.Arenas hasn't show all that he can do, he's a killer scorer but he's only been in the limelight 3 years. His avgs would be high compaired to the old timers because he hasn't played through those diminishing years.Ditto Bosh, has a long career a head of him but he hasn't accomplished much yet.Kemp took several years to harness his athletic skills and had some monster years, but he's no HOF'er.</div>You do realize that these players are not being asked to lead a franchise, they've been assembled use their personal abilities to create the best possible team. All I want from each player is what they bring to the table, I don't care if one of my bench players has never led a team into the finals.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Barkley would KILL Ewing by taking him out of the paint and either hitting his J or driving by.On defense Dirk would have the size to guard Ewing and Barkely can make Pippen do what he did the least best, shoot off the dribble. Mutombo gets eaten alive by Wilt and Barkley or Dirk make Pip and Ewing pay for doubling down. Wilt had an ego let's not forget and he'd be dying to take on this defensive front line and would want to humble them with his strength, speed and skill.</div>If Barkley takes Ewing out of the paint and passes by him he'll meet Mutumbo int he post. Also, Dirk has always struggled against athletic SF's like Pippen, we've seen it many times. He would struggle when guarded by Scottie. Mutubmo and Ewing will be able to slow down Wilt tremendousely, he was a dynamit scorer for his age but he would never be able to put up those numbers in the 80's or later.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Isiah get's in trouble in the post but don't forget his heart and determination. He beat Magic and Lakers in the Finals already. He's one of the rare PG's who go beyond the numbers, like Oscar and Magic.</div>I'm not really worried about Magic winning the Isiah/Magic matchup. It's clear that he's the better player.--I'm not going to reply to everything you posted because it's a given that each of us will think that our respective teams are better.
