LeBron James vs. Larry Bird

[Mr. J]

They were talking about it on ESPN; apparently LeBron James right now is the best small forward to ever play the game, according to someone's voice I couldn't pick up. Mark Jackson said he feels that LeBron will go down as the best SF of all-time, obviously over Bird.

What are your thoughts?

[The Dream]

Yeah I heard Mark and JVG talking about this last night. Mark had him at 2nd currently, and JVG said he's better than Bird already. I know it's hard for some to put a guy with no rings ahead of a guy with 3, but I agree with JVG. I'm sorry, but the only thing Bird does better than Lebron is "shoot." Lebron is a better passer, defender, he can get to the rack better, and he's just as smart (maybe even smarter) on the basketball court. If I had to build a team I'd take Lebron over him in a heartbeat...............this means Lebron is getting close to top 10 status of all time.

[44Thrilla]

Yeah I heard Mark and JVG talking about this last night. Mark had him at 2nd currently, and JVG said he's better than Bird already. I know it's hard for some to put a guy with no rings ahead of a guy with 3, but I agree with JVG. I'm sorry, but the only thing Bird does better than Lebron is "shoot." Lebron is a better passer, defender, he can get to the rack better, and he's just as smart (maybe even smarter) on the basketball court. If I had to build a team I'd take Lebron over him in a heartbeat...............this means Lebron is getting close to top 10 status of all time.

Bird was a better passer than LeBron. Not by much, but he definitely was.

[Celtic Fan]

don't forget better rebounder too. Oh and is one of the most clutch players ever.. but beyond that LBJ is a great athlete which Larry wasn't and is on a subpar team compaired to the Celtics of the 80's so LBJ has to shoot and score more, so I'll give him that... but better than Larry.. umm no I won't give him that.

Win an MVP or a Title first for crying out loud before any of this nonsense starts... and really guys, buying into the ESPN hype machine... seriously???

[44Thrilla]

I voted for Bron because I think he will be better by the end of his career, but right now, I think JVG is crazy for even saying that.

[The Dream]

don't forget better rebounder too. Oh and is one of the most clutch players ever.. but beyond that LBJ is a great athlete which Larry wasn't and is on a subpar team compaired to the Celtics of the 80's so LBJ has to shoot and score more, so I'll give him that... but better than Larry.. umm no I won't give him that.

Win an MVP or a Title first for crying out loud before any of this nonsense starts... and really guys, buying into the ESPN hype machine... seriously???

he is a better rebounder statistically, but I think that is partly due to the fact that Lebron has to create so much and therefore is further away from the basket than Bird. I can't really argue with you on the clutch factor. While Bron is clutch, Bird is one of the best last second performers ever.......I don't really buy into anything ESPN says if it's outlandish, but I think this is worthy of discussion. Bird has the better resume for the time being, but if I were picking an all time team I just couldn't see myself picking Larry Legend over Bron right now.....this got me to thinking, how do we rank the all time SF???


1. Lebron
2. Bird
3. Dr. J
4. Baylor
5. Nique/ Pippen?????

[Mr. J]

Let's also throw in the NBA was way more competitive in the 80's and early 90's. 'Bron has the benefit of softer defense and friendlier whistles.

[The Dream]

friendly whistles have always been around....larry bird benefitted from them as much as any superstar, LOL.....I do believe the "teams" were better in the 80s and 90s, but as far individual competitors I think it's just as good if not better now......I have no problem with people ranking Bird over him, but Bron will eclipse Larry in many areas before his career is over if he stays healthy.......the fact that I can honestly say that makes me think Bron > Bird

[Sex Panther]

Yeah I heard Mark and JVG talking about this last night. Mark had him at 2nd currently, and JVG said he's better than Bird already. I know it's hard for some to put a guy with no rings ahead of a guy with 3, but I agree with JVG. I'm sorry, but the only thing Bird does better than Lebron is "shoot." Lebron is a better passer, defender, he can get to the rack better, and he's just as smart (maybe even smarter) on the basketball court. If I had to build a team I'd take Lebron over him in a heartbeat...............this means Lebron is getting close to top 10 status of all time.

That part was the only right thing said in that whole post.

Larry Bird has to be one of the most overlooked superstars in NBA history. Lebron may be a much better weakside defender, but it's not like he's a great man-to-man defender anyways. Bird played amazing team defense. Bird was the better rebounder all while having a few other 8+ rebounders on that team. Lebron may have slightly better court vision, but Larry Bird was a better passer (again, not by much), but what forced me to even respond to your post was the fact that you said Lebron was as smart as Bird. Let me put it this way, if Bird was half as athletic as Michael Jordan, there's a chance he coulda been the GOAT.

Lebron's going to be better one day (meh), but he's not better than Bird yet.

[HCP]

You can't judge how great a player is by the amount of titles he wins. John Stockton and Karl Malone have zero!

[The Dream]

That part was the only right thing said in that whole post.

Larry Bird has to be one of the most overlooked superstars in NBA history. Lebron may be a much better weakside defender, but it's not like he's a great man-to-man defender anyways. Bird played amazing team defense. Bird was the better rebounder all while having a few other 8+ rebounders on that team. Lebron may have slightly better court vision, but Larry Bird was a better passer (again, not by much), but what forced me to even respond to your post was the fact that you said Lebron was as smart as Bird. Let me put it this way, if Bird was half as athletic as Michael Jordan, there's a chance he coulda been the GOAT.

Lebron's going to be better one day (meh), but he's not better than Bird yet.

a.) Larry isn't overlooked
b.) Lebron is a better one on one defender.....especially this season
c.) yes bird was a "good" team defender, but defense was never larry's strong point...Lebron's defense deficates on Bird's
d.) while bird avg. more boards than lebron I think it's partly due to the fact of Lebron initiating so much of the cavs offense.....seriously if you put the two men next to each other underneath the paint do you mean to tell me that Bird is going to get that board over James?
e.) Bird was a great passer, but I still have to give the edge to James...although an argument for bird can be made here
f.) "Smart" is an intangible. Any 22 year old who can lead his team of scrubs to the finals is smart, talented, and a person with good leadership characteristics....
g.) you mean to tell me if Lebron had Mchale and Parrish on his team that he wouldn't have a title by now? For god sakes the man took last years champs to the final minute in game 7, and had he had a "little" help he might be wearing one ring right now.


I'm sorry, but you'd have to be

a.) a bitter old man who thinks any basketball player born after 1986 is a disgrace to the game
b.) a larry bird nut hugger
c.) or both A and B

to honestly say that you'd pick Larry Bird over Lebron James.......I'm a fan and student of the game and I have TONS of respect for Bird, but no way in hell is he better than LBJ23.

[DaRizzle]

Let's also throw in the NBA was way more competitive in the 80's and early 90's. 'Bron has the benefit of softer defense and friendlier whistles.

Defense has gotten better...just look at the average scores in the 1980's

[The Dream]

^^^I think some of that is due to guys not shooting the ball as well............

[Sex Panther]

a.) Larry isn't overlooked

Yes he was.

b.) Lebron is a better one on one defender.....especially this season

read carefully next time, i never said he wasn't.

c.) yes bird was a "good" team defender, but defense was never larry's strong point...Lebron's defense deficates on Bird's

Lebron's D deficating Larry's? That's like firing a 2 dollar pistol with a blind eye. Yes, Lebron is slightly better in man-to-man defense, but it's not like he was above-and-beyond better. Did he improve on D? of course, that's to be expected when you have such great physical tools. To be honest, many would agree when i say Lebron's D was extremely overrated this year.

d.) while bird avg. more boards than lebron I think it's partly due to the fact of Lebron initiating so much of the cavs offense.....seriously if you put the two men next to each other underneath the paint do you mean to tell me that Bird is going to get that board over James?

Lebron literally stat-padded in many instances this year. He would call the rebound 10 feet from him and make his teammates run for the fastbreak. Lebron's ability to boxout was nowhere near as close as Larry, not to mention his footwork is still in need of a tune-up. Not all rebounds are perpetuated through a high vertical. In that case, why isn't Josh Smith grabbing 11 RPG? Or what about Vince Carter? You're really nitpicking at this point and choosing to use your arguements when they're stale and based purely on speculation. I watch many Cavs games (probably about around 60+ this year) and I can tell you right now that Lebron's rebounding abilities aren't nearly as polished as Larry Bird. Oh, and FYI Lebron really coasts a lot on defense in which he's closer to the basket.

e.) Bird was a great passer, but I still have to give the edge to James...although an argument for bird can be made here

Lebron handled the ball a far lot more than Bird ever did. Larry Legend was truly underrated in this aspect. It's safe to say, both have remarkable court vision.

f.) "Smart" is an intangible. Any 22 year old who can lead his team of scrubs to the finals is smart, talented, and a person with good leadership characteristics....

On all 3 accounts, yes. Who said Lebron wasn't smart? But to even think he had a basketball IQ in the same realm as Birds at this point in his career is foolish.

g.) you mean to tell me if Lebron had Mchale and Parrish on his team that he wouldn't have a title by now? For god sakes the man took last years champs to the final minute in game 7, and had he had a "little" help he might be wearing one ring right now.

Again, where did I say this? No one is saying he isn't talented. He's easily the best physical specimen to enter the league since Shaq nearly 2 decades ago. But one, you're comparing 2 completely different eras of basketball in which the defense was much better. And two, everyone was a little more rougher and athleticism was only one aspect of a player's game. Oscar Robertson wasn't exactly a physical marvel and look how well he faired in his career. You're diving way too far into the 'gene pool' arguement presenting Lebron's athleticism as a case for every single matter. That's like saying, "well if Kobe played in the 50s with Chamberlain he easily would have averaged 50 PPG as well". Well duh.

I'm sorry, but you'd have to be

a.) a bitter old man who thinks any basketball player born after 1986 is a disgrace to the game
b.) a larry bird nut hugger
c.) or both A and B

a) I'm 20 years old
b) I hate the Celtics
c) yes, that's correct.

to honestly say that you'd pick Larry Bird over Lebron James.......

The question wasn't "who would you build your franchise around" because that seems damn obvious, but it was merely who was the better player. Through the scope of his career, Larry Bird was one of the most skilled players in the history of the league (I'd put him in the top 2-3, and even make a case as the most skilled) and right now i'd still say that in his prime he was the better player than Lebron. One day, Lebron will definitely achieve more in the game and he'll probably be better, but not yet.

I'm a fan and student of the game

Good for you, many of the people who post in this forum are. It doesn't give credence.

and I have TONS of respect for Bird, but no way in hell is he better than LBJ23.

ok.

[Shapecity]

A lot of good arguments for both players, but all things being equal, at the end of game I'd want the ball in Bird's hands for the final shot. I agree with authentiq about Bird being an underrated player. You have these idiots putting Dirk Nowitzki in the same category and he's not even close to the player Bird was. It just waters down Bird's image. On the flipside you have the same analysts comparing LeBron to Jordan & Magic, which over inflates what's he's actually accomplished in his young career.

Jordan, Bird, and Magic were players you could give the ball to 10 straight possessions in the 4th quarter and expect something great to happen. LeBron hasn't reached that level yet. He's obviously shown he's capable of it, but those three did it on a nightly basis and when it counted most in the post-season.

[Mr. J]

A lot of good arguments for both players, but all things being equal, at the end of game I'd want the ball in Bird's hands for the final shot. I agree with authentiq about Bird being an underrated player. You have these idiots putting Dirk Nowitzki in the same category and he's not even close to the player Bird was. It just waters down Bird's image. On the flipside you have the same analysts comparing LeBron to Jordan & Magic, which over inflates what's he's actually accomplished in his young career.

Jordan, Bird, and Magic were players you could give the ball to 10 straight possessions in the 4th quarter and expect something great to happen. LeBron hasn't reached that level yet. He's obviously shown he's capable of it, but those three did it on a nightly basis and when it counted most in the post-season.

Exactly. LeBron isn't quite on that level of clutchness. Bird during his time was arguably the most clutch player in the league. Right now there are quite a few players I would want taking the last shot over LeBron: Kobe, Wade, Roy, Pierce, and Ben Gordon at least.

[The Dream]

Yes he was.

no he wasn't...he's constantly listed with the all time greats, and as the greatest SF of all time

Lebron's D deficating Larry's? That's like firing a 2 dollar pistol with a blind eye. Yes, Lebron is slightly better in man-to-man defense, but it's not like he was above-and-beyond better. Did he improve on D? of course, that's to be expected when you have such great physical tools. To be honest, many would agree when i say Lebron's D was extremely overrated this year.

yes deficating....bird was a good team defender, but so are a lot of people who have played the game of basketball...Bird never came close to being one of the best defenders in the NBA.

Lebron literally stat-padded in many instances this year

hard to stat pad when you sit on the bench in a lot of 4th quarters

On all 3 accounts, yes. Who said Lebron wasn't smart? But to even think he had a basketball IQ in the same realm as Birds at this point in his career is foolish.

and why is it foolish????.....because he doesn't have rings yet????

Again, where did I say this? No one is saying he isn't talented. He's easily the best physical specimen to enter the league since Shaq nearly 2 decades ago. But one, you're comparing 2 completely different eras of basketball in which the defense was much better. And two, everyone was a little more rougher and athleticism was only one aspect of a player's game. Oscar Robertson wasn't exactly a physical marvel and look how well he faired in his career. You're diving way too far into the 'gene pool' arguement presenting Lebron's athleticism as a case for every single matter. That's like saying, "well if Kobe played in the 50s with Chamberlain he easily would have averaged 50 PPG as well". Well duh.

answer my question.....that question being "if lebron had mchale or parrish you mean to tell me he wouldn't have a ring by now?".........

The question wasn't "who would you build your franchise around" because that seems damn obvious, but it was merely who was the better player. Through the scope of his career, Larry Bird was one of the most skilled players in the history of the league (I'd put him in the top 2-3, and even make a case as the most skilled) and right now i'd still say that in his prime he was the better player than Lebron. One day, Lebron will definitely achieve more in the game and he'll probably be better, but not yet.

this is the thing that makes me mad about NBA fans...seriously all we are waiting for is for Lebron to win a couple of rings to say that he's better than bird....what I'm saying is that is ridiculous......

[The Dream]

Exactly. LeBron isn't quite on that level of clutchness. Bird during his time was arguably the most clutch player in the league. Right now there are quite a few players I would want taking the last shot over LeBron: Kobe, Wade, Roy, Pierce, and Ben Gordon at least.

bird was clutch indeed, but last shots don't necessarily have to be shots.....you can take it to the basket and be equally as effective, maybe even more so........that is why Lebron is a deadly player that last minute or two of the game...dude is a clutch player....stats and the big games he's played in prove it.

[Denny Crane]

I give the nod to LeBron. If his career is somehow shortened, then obviously not.

Bird's real strength was his smarts; he was able to get himself into the right place at the right time, in spite of a lack of mobility and athleticism. It came into play with his passing and rebounding especially. He was, of course, the first great shooting big man with range extending to the seats.

LeBron is already close in terms of the IQ thing, but has a major edge in the athleticism dept. His 3pt shooting isn't quite as good as Bird's was, but he's still a great clutch player.

LeBron is not blessed with guys like McHale as 6th man, a C or Parish's quality, a backcourt with future HOFers, or a bench with guys like Walton, Pistol Pete, et al. The talent around him sure made his job easier.

LeBron is already close to Magic as a ballhandler and passer, and close to Jordan as a scorer. He should go down as the GOAT if the Cavs can maintain a semblance of a team around him.

[Sex Panther]

no he wasn't...he's constantly listed with the all time greats, and as the greatest SF of all time

So what? That doesn't mean he's not often overlooked. W/e, that doesn't really matter, believe what you want, it's useless arguing over something so trivial.

yes deficating....bird was a good team defender, but so are a lot of people who have played the game of basketball...Bird never came close to being one of the best defenders in the NBA.

I never said he was....I simply said he was a good team defender. The only thing I said was that Lebron is an overrated defender. Which no one should be arguing, cause he is.

hard to stat pad when you sit on the bench in a lot of 4th quarters

It's like you completely looked past what i wrote. Kudos.

and why is it foolish????.....because he doesn't have rings yet????

lol huh? I never said that :S. Stop making assumptions.

answer my question.....that question being "if lebron had mchale or parrish you mean to tell me he wouldn't have a ring by now?".........

Yes, he would. Now what exactly does that prove? Because I never said he wouldn';t have won a ring with them :S.

this is the thing that makes me mad about NBA fans...seriously all we are waiting for is for Lebron to win a couple of rings to say that he's better than bird....what I'm saying is that is ridiculous......

Read above.

LeBron is already close to Magic as a ballhandler and passer, and close to Jordan as a scorer. He should go down as the GOAT if the Cavs can maintain a semblance of a team around him.

It's not a matter of 'if', but 'when'. In 10 years, he should be the greatest player to play the game. Did he have an impact on basketball the same way Jordan did? Not even close. But his numbers will be comparable (and possibly better). No argument there.

[The Dream]

denny has spoken!!!

lebron > bird

what about.....



kobe vs. bird?

[huevonkiller]

Nice job accusing authentiq of being old, Dream. :[

Authentiq has spoken!

[Run BJM]

LeBron is not blessed with guys like McHale as 6th man, a C or Parish's quality, a backcourt with future HOFers, or a bench with guys like Walton, Pistol Pete, et al. The talent around him sure made his job easier.

LeBron is already close to Magic as a ballhandler and passer, and close to Jordan as a scorer. He should go down as the GOAT if the Cavs can maintain a semblance of a team around him.

Totally agree. Look at what hes doing already as a 24 year old and with that team. Give him a teammate like Pippen and see what he does. Give him the Celts teams that Bird has and see what he does. Dude is fuckin NUTS. Hes not as skilled as Bird but as far as impact on a a game I think hes better already. Dude has the most dominant team in the league with Mo Williams and a 33 year old Big Z as his best right hand men. Better than Kobe's team with Pau, Bynum, Odom, etc., better than the Celts with KG, Pierce, Rondo, Allen.

Hes hyped up a lot but I think hes even better than people give him credit for. Hes far and away the best basketball player in the world as far as impact on a game goes IMO and I think hes fairly raw in some aspects of the game compared to a Kobe, Bird, etc. Hes just that talented and that imposing. He will be the GOAT IMO even though I'm sure many will hold onto Jordan as the greatest. Get Bron a player as good as Pippen and lets see what happens.

[huevonkiller]

Totally agree. Look at what hes doing already as a 24 year old and with that team. Give him a teammate like Pippen and see what he does. Give him the Celts teams that Bird has and see what he does. Dude is fuckin NUTS. Hes not as skilled as Bird but as far as impact on a a game I think hes better already. Dude has the most dominant team in the league with Mo Williams and a 33 year old Big Z as his best right hand men. Better than Kobe's team with Pau, Bynum, Odom, etc., better than the Celts with KG, Pierce, Rondo, Allen.

Hes hyped up a lot but I think hes even better than people give him credit for. Hes far and away the best basketball player in the world as far as impact on a game goes IMO and I think hes fairly raw in some aspects of the game compared to a Kobe, Bird, etc. Hes just that talented and that imposing. He will be the GOAT IMO even though I'm sure many will hold onto Jordan as the greatest. Get Bron a player as good as Pippen and lets see what happens.

Well the Lakers had Derek Fisher, Luke Walton and Radmanovic starting for them this year (the least talented starters on either team). The Lakers win percentage without Andrew Bynum is nearly the same. Odom is not clearly better than Big Z and they played comparable minutes. Pau Gasol is somewhat better than Williams, but Kobe has also played better against the top teams this season at the same time. You can give the Cavs whatever credit but you're doing Kobe a disservice by talking up his players, I've yet to see the Cavs play anyone in the playoffs either. LeBron had the better regular season but the gap wasn't as big as this imo.

Look at the squad, it is similar to the one that got beat by the Suns just with Pau Gasol added a fringe All-Star; he's getting his presence maximized on this team. He'll make the All-NBA team for the first time due to playing with Bryant.

[DennisRodman]

In terms of who to build a team around, I'd pick Lebron hands down.

Especially if eras are ignored, there are more better 3 point shooters, there are more 7 footers in the league, generally athleticism has improved.

However those Celtics did have good chemistry, and teamwork.

It can be hard to compare players from different eras, and stats.