CJ with Dame sidelined

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by Zach Collins Enthusiast, Feb 24, 2020.

  1. Zach Collins Enthusiast

    Zach Collins Enthusiast Bored

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    If you look at the numbers CJ puts up with and without Dame it raises significant issues regarding their chemistry. Their cooperation on the court leaves much to be desired, they don't feed of each other they barely pass between them. If we could make this duo somehow bigger than the sum of its parts we'll be in contention but it seems like the opposite: Dame puts up monstrous numbers with CJ non existant and CJ flourishing with Dame on the bench.
    What say you?
     
  2. AldoTrapani

    AldoTrapani Well-Known Member

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    And it’s crazy CJ always gets close to triple doubles as well
     
  3. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    set CJ free...trade him
     
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  4. TorturedBlazerFan

    TorturedBlazerFan Well-Known Member

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    @illmatic99 made a similar post earlier and brought up some good point (IMO) as well other posters about they could be utilized better.
     
  5. CupWizier

    CupWizier Well-Known Member

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    How do you figure that McCollum is non existent when Lillard plays? He has been very consistent and our second leading scorer for several years as well as second in assists.
     
  6. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    some context on that though, assists/100 possessions:

    2015/16:

    Damian Lillard 9.6 Tim Frazier 7.7 CJ McCollum 6.1 Brian Roberts 5.8 Mason Plumlee 5.4

    2016/17:

    Damian Lillard 8.1 Mason Plumlee 7.0 Shabazz Napier 6.5 Evan Turner 6.1 Jusuf Nurkić 5.4 CJ McCollum 5.1

    2017/18:

    Damian Lillard 9.0 Shabazz Napier 4.9 CJ McCollum 4.6 Evan Turner 4.2 Jusuf Nurkić 3.4

    2018/19:

    Damian Lillard 9.4 Evan Turner 8.5 Jusuf Nurkić 5.7 Nik Stauskas 4.5 Anfernee Simons 4.5 CJ McCollum 4.2 Meyers Leonard 4.1

    2019/20:

    Damian Lillard 10.2 CJ McCollum 5.3 Caleb Swanigan 3.6 Skal Labissière 3.5

    the assist rate numbers look about the same, by the way. It was a 4 year trend of CJ getting worse and worse as a play-maker as he morphed into MeJ. It took Olshey basically gutting the team of any capable play-makers, along with Nurkic's injury, to stop that trend this season.
     
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  7. SIeepwalker

    SIeepwalker The lone sane poster

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    1. Shut down Dame for the season
    2. CJ balls out for the rest of the season
    3. Trade him while his trade value is at its highest
    4. Championship babyyyyyyy
     
  8. CupWizier

    CupWizier Well-Known Member

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    lmao! Your hate for McCollum is hilarious. McCollum plays the majority of his minutes as a shooting guard. His main role on the team is to be a scorer.
     
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  9. tester551

    tester551 Well-Known Member

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    OK. Let's look at some comparable 'high usage' tandems:

    Houston ->
    '19-'20 -> Harden 9.3, Westbrook 9.3
    '18-'19 -> Paul 12.5, Harden 10.0

    GSW
    ->
    '18-'19 -> Green 10.5, Durant 8.0, Curry 7.4
    '17-'18 -> Green 10.7, Curry 9.2, Durant 7.6

    Washington
    '18-'19 -> Wall 12.0, Satoransky 8.7, Beal 7.0
    '17-'18 -> Wall 13.8, Satoransky 8.6, Beal 6.2

    The main point in showing this is that just because CJ primarily plays SG and is a 'scorer', that it doesn't alleviate his responsibility to share the ball. You can have more than 1 player on a team average more than 8 assists/100 possessions while also scoring.
     
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  10. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    oh for chrissakes....those were the fucking numbers....I didn't make them up
     
  11. SlyPokerDog

    SlyPokerDog Woof! Staff Member Administrator

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    This team would be unstoppable if we played with two balls.
     
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  12. TorturedBlazerFan

    TorturedBlazerFan Well-Known Member

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    Especially it they were blue.
     
  13. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    that's the color of being stopped
     
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  14. Terry Stotts

    Terry Stotts Verified

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    Teams with their second leader in APG, plus those teams lucky enough to have more players who exceed CJ's APG:

    ATL: *Teague* (PG) 4.4
    BOS: Smart (PG) 4.8, Hayward (SF) 4.3
    BKN: Irving (PG) 6.4
    CHA: Rozer (PG) 4.0
    CHI: Levine (PG) 4.2
    CLE: Love (PF) 3.0
    DAL: Barea (PG) 3.8
    DEN: Murry (PG) 4.8
    DET: Jackson (PG) 5.1, Kennard (SG) 4.1
    GSW: Green (PF) 6.2
    HOU: Westbrook (PG) 7.2

    IND: McConnel (PG) 5.1, Sabonis (PF) 4.8
    LAC: Leonard (SF) 5.3, Jackson/Beverly (PG) 4.0
    LAL: Rondo (PG) 5.3

    MEM: Jones (PG) 4.5
    MIA: Bam (PF) 5.0, Dragic (PG) 5.0, Winslow (SF) 4.0
    MIL: Bledsoe (PF) 5.4, Middleton (SF) 4.2
    MIN: *Teague* (PG) 6.1, Napier (PG) 5.2, Towns (C) 4.4, McLaughlin (PG) 4.1
    NOP: Holiday (SG) 6.8, Ingram (SF) 4.3
    NYK: Randle (PF) 3.2
    OKC: Schoder (PG) 4.0
    ORL: Augustin (PG) 4.6
    PHI: Horford (PF) 3.8
    PHX: Booker (SG) 6.3
    POR: CJ (SG) 4.0
    SAC: Joseph (PG) 3.3
    SAS: Murray (PG) 4.0
    TOR: VanVleet (SG) 6.7
    UTH: Mitchell (SG) 4.3, Conley (PG) 4.2
    WAS: Smith (PG) 4.7

    Average 2nd = 4.87

    Yeah, CJ comes in below average. But for all the bitching you would think he was off by a hell of a lot more than less than one. All things considered, I'd say there are only 7 teams with a 2nd play-maker that is significantly better than CJ...and only two of those teams are better than us. Given that I am such an awful coach and have us DEAD LAST in APG, I'd say CJ is doing just fine. Get him someone who knows what they are doing, and he could easily be averaging 5.5 APG.

    Also, call me crazy, but there seems to be quite a pattern where that list is dominated by PGs. As far as SGs go, it's really only Holiday, Booker, and VanVleet that standout above CJ. Too bad Neil is such an idiot and hasn't traded CJ for any of those guys.

    Long story short: I am a shit coach and holding not just CJ back, but the entire team.
     
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  15. HailBlazers

    HailBlazers RipCity

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    The problem isn't you holding him back, it's you not pushing him forward.
     
  16. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    assists per game is a raw stat that lacks some significant context. CJ is 58th in the NBA in assists/game (espn), but he's 6th in minutes/game. Of players who have played at least 25 games, CJ is tied for 99th in assists/100-possessions and is 94th in assist rate

    again, that deceptive. That's why I think it's helpful to normalize for assist rates rather than raw assist numbers which disregard minutes & usage. When that's done, it's a different picture

    take assist/100-possessions for instance...

    if you just narrow it down to players who play some significant minutes at SG (30% of the time or more), these guards are better than CJ, sometimes by quite a bit:

    Malcolm Brogdon, Spencer Dinwiddie, James Harden, Jrue Holiday, Tomáš Satoranský, Lou Williams, Fred VanVleet, Jimmy Butler, Joe Ingles, Devin Booker, Bradley Beal, Elie Okobo, Delon Wright, DeMar DeRozan, Marcus Smart, Derrick White, Khris Middleton, Gordon Hayward, Luke Kennard, Caris LeVert, Donovan Mitchell, Zach LaVine, Will Barton

    and there are others better who aren't PG's:

    Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokić, Draymond Green, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Kawhi Leonard, Bam Adebayo, Mason Plumlee, Domantas Sabonis, Paul George, Marc Gasol, Al Horford, Karl-Anthony Towns, Brandon Ingram, Nikola Vučević, Kyle Anderson

    that somebody like Bam Adebayo, in only his 3rd season, has an assist/100 rate 35% higher than CJ's is kind of revealing
     
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  17. Bruno_Sabino

    Bruno_Sabino From Brasil (Belem-PA)

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    Klay Thompson always have big games without curry, Beal is balling out like never before without wall, Porzings put big numbers without doncic so that’s not a point, every great player trends to step up when their best player or a key guy is missing. Cj is a beast, incredible talent, needs this to stepping up and get back on his stroke. Nurkic and Dame comin back soon
     
  18. SharpesTriumph

    SharpesTriumph Well-Known Member

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    I do think CJ would be better as the main backcourt scorer.

    Thought for a number of years they should really trade Lillard if they want to maximize the chance to contend. But he's probably to good to get equivalent value.

    If the team had 3 or 4 below average but still playable wings they'd be in the playoffs and an interesting team.

    So I wouldn't say CJ is a problem... but he isnt the most critical position for a Lillard team. So it's not maximizing the benefit of your second best player... then we got scrubs like Melo playing 35 mpg at 35...
     
  19. CupWizier

    CupWizier Well-Known Member

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    Do you have any personal information on whether any of the Blazers don;t play with 2 balls?:evilfire:
     
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  20. SIeepwalker

    SIeepwalker The lone sane poster

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    I know Stotts plays with none
     

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