Matchup #2: peg182 vs. BG7 Lavigne

Discussion in 'S2 Sports Bar' started by Zards, Aug 30, 2007.

  1. Zards

    Zards The People's Champ

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    Alright, here are the rules.</p>

    - Only judges and the two contestants (peg182 and BG7 Lavigne) may post in this thread.</p>

    - No flaming/insulting is allowed when defending your opinion, it's just a debate contest, and it's all in good fun.</p>

    - The deadline is this upcoming Monday (Labor Day) at 12:00 AM ET. I'm giving you five days to debate (including tonight), which is reasonably fair.</p>

    Your debate topic is: Will Steve Nash ever win a title in Phoenix? </p>

    </p>

    <u>Judges </u></p>

    1. cpawfan</p>

    2. Premier</p>

    3. Denny Crane </p>

    </p>

    You may begin debating at any time. : ) </p>
     
  2. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Who has the "yes" side and who has the "no" side?</p>

    </p>
     
  3. Zards

    Zards The People's Champ

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane)</div><div class='quotemain'>

    Who has the "yes" side and who has the "no" side?</p>

    </p></div>

    peg182 said yes, BG7 Lavigne said no. </p>
     
  4. Денг Гордон

    Денг Гордон Member

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    I have the no side.
     
  5. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Understood. For future reference, it'd be a good thing to include this info in the first post of the thread [​IMG]</p>

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  6. pegs

    pegs My future wife.

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    yes! </p>

    the pheonix front office is still a great front office, and if they don't win it this year, they'll prolly have just as good a chance if not better next year.</p>

    i mean, just look at the players they already have around him. bell, marion, barbosa, amare, diaw, hill. those are top of the line players. </p>

    in my opinion, they could have won it this year, had amare and diaw not left the bench. i actually think they woulda won it after getting past the spurs. utah and cleveland would have been no problem for them. </p>
     
  7. Денг Гордон

    Денг Гордон Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peg182)</div><div class='quotemain'>

    yes! </p>

    the pheonix front office is still a great front office, and if they don't win it this year, they'll prolly have just as good a chance if not better next year.</p>

    i mean, just look at the players they already have around him. bell, marion, barbosa, amare, diaw, hill. those are top of the line players. </p>

    in my opinion, they could have won it this year, had amare and diaw not left the bench. i actually think they woulda won it after getting past the spurs. utah and cleveland would have been no problem for them. </p>

    </div></p>

    </p>

    The Phoenix Suns have a great front office? Yes, that may be true. They had good talent evaluators in building the team they have now in taking Stoudemire, Marion, and Barbosa. But what is the use of a great front office if they are not allowed to operate? The Phoenix Suns ownership will not allow them to win a championship. Steve Nash is going to be 34 before the allstar break this season. The Suns window of opportunity to win with Nash is closing, and fast. Their ownership plain doesn't care to be a championship team, they are content at where they are, and unwilling to spend more money that would seem to push them over the top. </p>

    Just look at this years draft. They traded Rudy Frenandez to Portland. Selling talent for cash. This has been a major set back for the Phoenix Suns. How are they supposed to get better if they aren't willing to even keep their draft picks? 2005, they sell Morcin Gortat, a 7 foot big man, who for anyone who watched the Orlando Pro Summer League, the guy has some game making the Orlando Summer League First Team. They threw in Nate Robinson in a trade just so they didn't have to pay him. They sold David Lee to the Knicks. Do they think that they are better without these big men they chose to sell? 2004, they trade Luol Deng to the Bulls because they don't want to pay the draft pick. Would Phoenix not be better with these guys? I think they would. </p>

    Thats just the draft. We can see the pattern carry over into their other dealings. They traded Quentin Richardson to New York in a sign and trade because they didn't want to pay him. They traded Joe Johnson to Atlanta for draft picks that they keep selling. They traded Kurt Thomas, along with more of their draft picks to the Sonics for a trade exception. These players would all help them to be a championship team here.</p>

    Their ownership just isn't committed to fielding a championship team.</p>

    How is this team supposed to win in the NBA? Amare Stoudemire and Sean Mark are their only big men. They are flirting with PJ Brown and Chris Webber, but will they get them...no? They are unwilling to spend part of their MLE to bring in these guys. They just don't care about having good big men. They are just going to let the opposing big men double Amare, attack him, and get him in foul trouble to expose the Sun's amazingly weak front court depth. Grant Hill was the only guy they added to the team, while losing Kurt Thomas. Grant Hill is averaging 28 games per season since signing with the Magic, coming into this season with a 35 year old Hill, its almost like looking at when does he go down with his major injury, not if. Even if he stays healthy, at the end of the day, he is still a perimeter player, and the Suns are stacked there, so his impact on the game will be minimal due to a lack of opportunity to improve the Suns any.</p>

    They werent' good enough to beat the Spurs this year, yet they decided to get worse. A declined 2007-2008 Suns team isn't going to beat the same Spurs team they lost to last year. Houston got better in adding Scola, James, and Francis, will Phoenix be able to beat them now? Can they beat Dirk's Mavericks? Weren't able to do it two years ago as Dirk made his way to the finals. </p>

    A team with one big man just isn't going to win in the NBA.</p>

    </p>
     
  8. pegs

    pegs My future wife.

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    You've got to look at it this way tho...the Pheonix Suns are not meant to be a big team. they are built around fast break, three point basketball, with a point guard that for the most part creates for the whole rest of the team. </p>

    Although they don't necessarily need one, I have little doubt that with the Suns' current big men, the front office definitely has plans to bring in another big man.</p>

    I have to quote you on this, because I know you are terribly wrong with this statement:
    "How is this team supposed to win in the NBA? Amare Stoudemire and Sean Mark are their only big men."
    First of all, where were you in 2005-06 season, when Amare played about 2 games, and Marion and Diaw were there only 2 big men? Their record that season? 54-28. They went to the WESTERN CONFERENCE FINALS. Third round. They lost to the Dallas Mavericks, without an injured Raja Bell, who they sorely missed. </p>

    Now, is Boris Diaw not a big man? Don't the Suns use Shawn Marion at the 4? I don't think the Suns have too much of a problem with big men, they find ways to fill that hole. Shawn Marion and Boris Diaw do well as big men, we've seen it before with Amare out for the season, and I'm sure we'll see it again, if Amare is injured or in foul trouble. Put those 2 big men alongside eachother or Amare, and you've got a pretty productive and successful front court. </p>

    Besides, position doesn't even really mean anything on the suns. If you seriously went by players' "positions", Leandro would always play PG, Bell would always play SG, James Jones would have never played PF (i know he's not on the team any more), and the same with Marion. Plus, the Suns would be forced to start Burke or Marks at center, which would have been fun to watch. But, the Suns are "rebels", they go against the grain and don't use all their players at their supposed "positions", and it's very successful. We've seen it every season since 2004, and I'm sure the Suns will do it again this season and next season. </p>

    Last season, the Suns finished with the 2nd best record in the Western Conference. They went into the 2nd round of the playoffs against the eventual champion Spurs, in a series in which, under normal circumstances, they would have had a greater chance to win, and would have been the favorites to win. But, they lost, because of 1) Steve Nash's face, which wouldn't stop bleeding, and 2) the unfortunate suspensions of Amare Stoudamire and Boris Diaw.</p>

    I strongly believe they would have won that series had the momentum not swung in the Spurs' favor. After that Suns win in which Horry checked Nash into the press table, they played the spurs in a game in which they were ahead by a wide margin. But i believe because of the fatigue of the Suns players that was brought upon as a result of having to work harder without Diaw and Amare on the court, the Suns were not able to keep that big league, and ended up losing that game and the next.</p>

    Now, next season, they go in without Kurt Thomas, who was injured for much of the season and not used that much during the playoffs, and James Jones, who can be easily replaced by Grant Hill and quite possibly the rookies, Alando Tucker and D.J. Strawberry, as well. </p>

    I believe the Suns have improved substantially, and will continue to improve, considering there's still talent out there they can add to their team. </p>

    Now, I see you're asking, what big men can they add? Well, just look at some of the remaining free agents:</p>

    1) PJ Brown: Yeah, he's old, but he's still a serviceable defensive big. </p>

    2) Chris Webber: Pheonix doesn't really need him. I don't really see any point in signing him to Pheonix.</p>

    3) Esteban Batista: Talented big man who is making a splash in the FIBA Americas. He is a free agent from Atlanta, and he could help Pheonix just in case they need a big man.</p>

    4) Brian Skinner - Solid defensive shot-blocking center, who can do the dirty work. </p>

    And these are just a few of the remaining big men available, and there is no doubt Phoenix will attract them. Either they will sign one of these big men, trade for a big man, or stand pat and still be successful with the current roster they have now, because they've proved it before that it is very possible to be successful in the NBA with "only" Amare Stoudamire and Sean Marks as their only big men.</p>

    Lastly, I'll look at your "age" arguements. Does age really mean anything in the NBA when it comes to great players? People have been doubting Steve Nash for a few years now, saying that he's getting too old, and yet he's still proving them wrong. Just because a player's old, it doesn't mean he can't lead a team. there are plenty of older players who have successfully led teams.</p>

    Meanwhile, Grant Hill does have a great amount of injury problems. But here's something you haven't mentioned: He played 30 minutes per game in Orlando, and he won't play nearly that much on the Suns, with Marion, Diaw, and the rookies Tucker and Strawberry on the roster, all who could play the same forward position Hill plays. He could still play a major part on the team in limited time, with his great scoring and passing abilities which the Suns could most definitely use when Nash isn't in the game.</p>

    </p>
     
  9. pegs

    pegs My future wife.

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    Oh, I'm deeply sorry for completely ignoring the whole "trading draft picks" section of your response.</p>

    Why did Phoenix trade all of those draft picks? Well, think about it. Mike D'Antoni only trusts and plays certain players. Last season, it was nash, bell, thomas, jones, amare, marion, diaw, and barbosa (excuse me if i'm forgetting anybody, and i didn't include banks because he sucks). Now, there are still other players on the team who could have made somewhat of an impact, such as jumaine jones and Jalen Rose, so it's obvious that D'Antoni must have some sort of a plan to use a rotation of 7-8 players normally in games. Who's to say he would have even given those rookies much of a chance? Think about that, he only uses 7-8 players, so what would be the use of keeping rookies if D'antoni isn't gonna even use them? That's just a waste of money, and that's somethin the Suns need. Yes, they gave up on a couple good players, but who knows if they would have even gotten playing time and developed at all. Would unplayed and undeveloped rookies make any difference on a Suns squad where proven players and veterans are relied on and trusted by D'Antoni? I doubt that. </p>

    Now, let's actually talk about those draft picks they gave up: firstly, Rudy Fernandez. Who knows if he's actually gonna be good in the NBA, and if the Suns will even need him. They have a number of wing players as it is, with Bell, Marion, Hill, Diaw, Barbosa and the two draft picks they selected, Strawberry and Tucker. Not only that, but look at what the Suns did by trading Fernandez: they got ride of a 3M contract in jones, thereby saving some room to possibly sign another player this year or the next, more useful to them than Jones.</p>

    Next, Nate Robinson, who is overrated anyways and I believe is a bad example, but I'll look at him anyways. why did the Suns trade him? To acquire a veteran, Kurt Thomas, to shore up the front line, and to get rid of the injury-prone Quentin Richardson, who had back problems which affected him once he got to the knicks. This seemed like a good trade, since up until the 2005 season he had been a solid and very healthy player. But, to get him, they had to give up Nate, and that seemed like no problem, since Nate is an undersized shooting guard and isn't even as close to good as Barbosa, who is also an undersized shooting guard. So i really doubt that Nate would have made the Suns any better.</p>

    Now, David Lee. How did the Knicks acquire David Lee? Well, let's start out with the 2003 draft. With the 28th selection of the draft the Spurs selected Leandrinho Barbosa. Later on, of course, Phoenix moved in to trade for the lightning quick guard. Now, they had to give up something...right? Well, what they gave up was their 1st round pick in the 2005 NBA draft. Now, how did that get to the Knicks..? Well, it was packaged along with Malik Rose in exchange for Nazr Mohammed. And then, the 2004-05 pick went on to be the 30th pick in the draft, since the Suns had the best record in the league. And with that 30th pick, the Knicks selected David Lee, who was very much a sleeper. Now, who would you expect to be more important to the Suns' high-scoring, fastbreak game? The lightning quick, smooth shooting guard or the undersized big man, which the Suns probably have enough of as it is? I'll answer that for you, it's Leandro Barbosa, reigning sixth man of the year. he was extremely important for the Suns and has been a breakout star in the league. If I were the Suns GM, i'd choose Barbosa over Lee any day to go along with the current Suns roster.</p>

    Lastly, I'll look at Luol Deng. Yes, he is a great player now, but did the Suns really need him for the 2004-05 season? Obviously not, since they had acquired Steve Nash in win-now mode, as i said before. And on the Suns squad for that Season, they had Quentin Richardson, Joe Johnson, and Shawn Marion, three proven excellent players, two of which are all stars and on a much higher level than Deng. Deng was not a player who was thought to be NBA-ready right away, and it has taken him a couple seasons to flourish. Would it have mattered to have Deng on the team with three other proven wing players, each playing 35-40 minutes a night? I doubt it. He most likely would not hav gotten much playing time, as i said before with rookies on the Suns, and most likely would not have developed as well. But looking at him now, would he improve the Suns? Of course. But had he stayed with the Suns, what if he wasn't given playing time to develop, then would he have helped? probably not. And with all of their proven, high quality wing players, would the Suns even need him that much? I doubt that. </p>
     
  10. Денг Гордон

    Денг Гордон Member

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    You can say that player position doesn't matter all you want, but its not just about position. Its about size. The Phoenix Suns simply do not have quality size to win. Boris Diaw is just 6'8", 215 pounds. Shawn Marion 6'7", 220 pounds. Amare Stoudemire is their only quality big they have with big man size at 6'10", 245 pounds. But he only has a standing reach of 9', which is just average. Their frontcourt poses no physical advantages over those of other teams in the West. They are going to take beating in the post night in night out against Houston and San Antonio, going up against behemoths like Duncan and Yao night in. Amare Stoudemire is one of the worst big men defender in the league. This is on display throughout the FIBA America tournaments as a scrub like Esteban Batista (who you seem to think will make them better?), and Luis Scola (only above average by NBA standards) have been able to abuse him. Steve Nash is also a horrible defender, which allows greater guard penetration than usual, so Stoudemire will have to deal with pesky guards trying to draw fouls on him. Great penetrating guards like Francis and Parker will be able to score at will at the rim because of the lack of interior defense, that Phoenix traded away for some money. That money isn't going to alter the shots, but Kurt Thomas would have.</p>

    We can play the what if games all we want, but fact of the matter is, Phoenix has proven time and time again that they just plain aren't good enough to beat the Spurs in a playoff series. 2005, the Spurs ousted the Suns in 5 games. That was a Suns team with Joe Johnson, Quentin Richardson, and a 100% healthy Amare. This past postseason, they play the Spurs, and lose again in 6 games. </p>

    So without Thomas, and no valuable draft acquisitions, they will need to improve (get a player better than Kurt Thomas) to be able to beat the Spurs who they weren't able to beat with Thomas.</p>

    You present your 4 options.</p>

    You have PJ Brown as your first option. Perhaps your still stuck in the 90's like PJ's haircut. 6.1 PPG 4.8 RPG, that was in over 20 minutes. He had a TS% of 46.2. That is absolutely dismal. He scores very inefficiently, and rebounds at a rate that even Eddy Curry could get in on and make fun of. What exactly does the guy bring to the table, he is old and washed up. In additionally, we are discussing whether the Suns can win a championship. PJ Brown plain doesn't have the heart of a champion. Earlier in the season, he was complaining about not getting enough minutes, demanding a trade from the Bulls, to a worse team, its all about him, not the team. In game 6, he had 20 points in the first half of the game. Nice and all. But at halftime, on a courtside interview, he told ESPN's Lisa Salters "I've done my part, now its up to my team to finish it." Anyone who watched the Pistons-Bulls series, know that the Pistons showed heavy attention on Ben Gordon and Luol Deng, making it so others had to step up in order for the Bulls to win. Pistons would just leave Brown open the entire series, and players like that were needed to step up in order for the Bulls to win. Whats Brown do in the 2nd half? 0 points. Thats the attitude of a loser right there. If he went out, played with energy, and actually tried to help team win the game, while Ben Wallace had a back injury, and the Bulls desperately needed a big man to step up to help them win. Brown didn't care, he felt he did all he needed. He's a loser, and will not help the Suns win the championship.</p>

    Chris Webber, same thing. He had his moments during the playoffs, but was largely ineffective, putting in games where he put in 0 points only. He has never been able to complete an entire season in the NBA, and is very injury plagued. Batista is a scrub, who has yet to do anything in the NBA in 2 seasons. Brian Skinner, 4.4 PPG 5.7 RPG in 22 minutes. He only averages 1 BPG, how is that a solid shot blocker? The only time he was a solid shotblocker was a 25 game stretch with Sacramento in 2005. Otherwise he's been subpar. He's a scrubs. These scrubs won't help them win an NBA Championship.</p>

    I don't see how you can justify their trades? Leandro Barbosa being more valuable to the Suns than David Lee is debateable. But the Suns could have had Joe Johnson and David Lee out there, instead of Barbosa, which would make the Suns a better team. Luol Deng is an allstar level player. You don't just trade away top picks because you don't want to pay the guy. That doesn't help your franchise longterm, and the Phoenix Suns are feeling the consequences of these cheap moves.</p>

    At the end of the day, a Suns team without Kurt Thomas, is worse than a Suns team with Kurt Thomas. That team with Kurt Thomas was not good enough to even get out of the West, and neither will this years Suns team. Their cheap ownership will not allow them to spend money to bring in a top class free agent, so instead, a free agent like Webber will sign with Dallas and improve their front court depth further. They won't make a deadline trade that puts them over the top, and instead are more likely to trade the 12th highest paid player in the league, Shawn Marion, officially slamming shut the Sun's championship window. </p>

    </p>
     
  11. pegs

    pegs My future wife.

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    Their frontcourt advantages are very strong. There's more to these players than height. Diaw is an all-around player, and while he had a rough year last year, he can score, rebound, and pass with pretty good numbers. and Shawn Marion is one of the best rebounders in the league, he can block shots, steal, defend, and score easy buckets, along with hittin the occasional outside shot. Marion is one of the quickest players and quickest jumpers, and his second-jump is argueably the best in the league. </p>

    Amare Stoudamire is one of the best bigs in the league, and as much as you say he can't guard players like Duncan, etc., he can abuse those guys on the other end just as bad. And he's not that bad a defender as you make him seem-you're completely underrating him based on stats, there. Duncan is a tough player to guard and very few players can successfully stop him--i could probably count the players on one hand. Amare is not the best defender by any standards, but he's also not the worse- he is a solid defender, and with him and marion down low, those 2 players' shotblocking should be enough for the Suns to pull out wins on most nights.</p>

    And your arguement on Amare picking up fouls is pretty weak, too. He has only fouled out of 6 games, most of them at the beginning of the season. and he doesn't have an outstanding FPG. So if it was not such a big problem last season, a season when he was readjusting to the NBA after his surgeries, then next season, it should be even less of a problem.</p>

    In 2005, the Suns faced the Spurs in the Playoffs and lost. Though, it would have been interesting to see what would have happened had Joe Johnson played in every game in that series, without injuries or that face mask he was forced to wear. Joe Johnson was an important part of that 2004-05 Suns team, and they were missing him alot during that series.</p>

    In 2006, the Suns were without Amare the whole season, including the playoffs. Does anything else need to be said? Also, even without Amare, the Suns were still a really good team, and who knows what might have been had Bell not been injured.</p>

    In 2007, the Suns had many problems with the "rules" the NBA feels they must enforce, and they were pretty much screwed by those silly rules. First, you've got the game where Nash wasn't allowed to come into the game because his face wouldn't stop bleeding, and the game was played without Nash. That was pretty ridiculous, first off with not letting Nash play, and second off not stopping the game a little longer to let Steve Nash get cleaned up so the Suns would not be at a huge disadvantage. Then, when that infamous check from Horry to Nash caused Amare and Diaw to jump from the bench, the rules came into play again, and they were suspended one game...for getting up. This is the game at San Antonio where the Suns pulled off a convincing win and started swinging the momentum their way, as they were on their way home, where they had compiled a 33-8 regular season record.
    The next game, the Suns to their home arena with 6 of their normal rotation players instead of 8, one of which (Amare) plays the 3rd most minutes on the Suns in the playoffs, 35 mpg, and the other, Diaw, plays a very important part on this team with his great passing skills, especially when Nash is not in the game. This could only spell bad news for the Suns. They went into the game having to force 3 (older) players (Nash, Bell, Marion) to play at least 46 minutes each. They had weak bench help, and the Spurs were able to take advantage of that, and swing the momentum their way, as they took that game and the next at their home court in San Antonio.
    Had the Suns had Amare and Diaw in that game, they would have most likely won the game and had a great chance to win the series, and go on to win the title. They had regained home court advantage after that infamous game in which Steve Nash was checked into the table.</p>

    Barring injuries and more "rule problems", it's extremely likely that this year or the next the Suns will win the Championship. And i believe that Steve Nash will get his title.</p>

    </p>

    I'm not "justifying their trades." I'm giving reasons as to why the Suns did what they did, and those reasons were pretty understandable at the time. The Suns felt they had no use for the rookies, traded them away, but that turned out to be a mistake with a couple guys.</p>

    It's extremely debateable that Luol Deng is an "all-star level player." I believe there are at least 6 better players at his position than him, so that seems like a little bit of biased and overrating. Luol Deng could have been a solid player for the Suns, sure, but he is replaceable, and there are definitely better players than him. And i believe two of those players are on the Suns: Marion and Diaw (when he's at his best). </p>

    The arguement that the Suns "could have had Lee" is completely out there. The Suns traded away that pick in the draft 2 years before the 2005 draft. They saw a great player in Barbosa, asked how they could acquire, and gave away what was necessary, which was that 2005 draft pick. They didn't even "trade away" the pick "because you[they] don't want to pay the guy." They traded it away because they wanted to pay a different guy, Barbosa. Just because they didn't read the future and see that David Lee was going to be in the draft and a solid player doesn't mean they have the worst front office in the league.
    Your arguement on that is poor, and leads me to wonder if you actually read and understood my response that actually said that the 2005 draft pick was traded in 2003 for Leandro Barbosa, 2 years before David Lee entered the NBA Draft. I don't know how that shows that the Suns couldn't and aren't trying to win a title, either.</p>

    Who cares about PJ Brown's offense? Do the Suns really need that much offense from him, with players like Amare, Marion, Barbosa, Nash, Diaw, and Bell? those guys alone could score 100 points. The Suns aren't the Bulls, they don't have problems scoring like the Bulls do, at times. And besides, the Suns have one of the best point guards in the game if not the best, Steve Nash. He could easily create for Brown. But really, are the Suns looking for a big man who can score? I doubt it, since they don't really need one all that much. What Brown brings is solid defense and rebounding, and that's something the Suns could use. It would take pressure off of Amare, Diaw and Marion to guard the other team's big, and allow them to expel more energy on the offensive end.</p>

    And just because skinner only averaged 1 bpg doesn't mean he's not a solid shotblocker, and definitely doesn't mean he's a below-average shotblocker. Just look at a player like Kevin Garnett, he only averaged 1.66 blocks in 39.4 mpg, and has the same blocks per 48 minute average, 2.02 blocks, and yet he's considered a great shotblocker, right? Given more time, he would average more blocks. I believe that kind of defense along with his post defense could help and improve the Suns.</p>

    Oh ya, and did i not say "2) Chris Webber: Pheonix doesn't really need him. I don't really see any point in signing him to Pheonix."? I don't really know why you mentioned him. I couldn't see the Suns adding him.</p>

    Batista, a scrub? He has barely been given a chance to play in the NBA. He's been playing shit minutes because Atlanta doesn't have the balls to play him. The one game he does play, he gets 8 point on 4-5 shooting, and 5 rebounds all in 20 minutes. Who's to say he can't become a good, serviceable player? Diaw was a scrub, before he had a breakout season. I could see Batista being a good and serviceable player in the league some time soon.</p>

    I'm wondering: how is Kurt Thomas the difference maker in Phoenix? Who cares about winning with/without Thomas. They're just as good with him as they are without him. He is certainly not the difference maker, Nash is, Amare is, Marion, Diaw, Barbosa, Bell, Hill are all difference makers. They're gonna be the reason why the Suns win the Championship, or why the Suns just barely missed out. Not Kurt Thomas, he didn't even play that much.</p>

    So, what would you like the Suns to do, bring in Rashard Lewis for 20 mil? or overpay Varajeo, Magloire, or a player of that nature? Would you rather have them overpaying for a player who makes a little difference or pay a core player, someone like Barbosa or Diaw, who will play a big part on the team? Just look at what the Spurs are doing. They're paying a bunch of money to core players (Duncan, Parker Ginobili) and attracting other players to play on low salaries (Bowen, Horry, Finley, Vaughn), and it works for them. The Suns are trying to do the same thing, except they have more core players (Nash, Marion, Stoudamire, Barbosa, Diaw) and are paying more to the other players (Bell, Hill, Banks). So they have to limit themselves fiscally, whereas the Spurs have the advantage of not having to pay anyone outside of the core 3 too much money.</p>

    Meanwhile, the Suns have to try to bring in other players, proven players such as Rose, Hill, etc., to try and support their core, without much money available to them, which means they're trying to offer less to get more. And, in my opinion, Grant Hill is a top-class free agent. Even though he's old and injury-prone, he is still a great player and difference maker when healthy. Last season, he played 65 games and averaged 14 ppg, 4 rpg, and 2 apg in 30 mpg. </p>

    And you're contradicting yourself, saying that Webber is not that good of a player any more, yet Dallas bringing him in improves them, and makes Phoenix a bad team for not picking him up. It's either he's ineffective, and doesn't help a team much, or he improves a team. You can't go back and forth like that to try and prove a point, because it simply doesn't work.</p>

    </p>
     
  12. Денг Гордон

    Денг Гордон Member

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    Just starting with the free agents. Chris Webber could help Dallas, because he would be able to comfortably play in a reserve role. In Phoenix, he would have to be thrust into a more heavy role, the Suns don't have Dirk, Diop, and Dampier already in place, they just have Amare. As evidenced by Chris Webber's play in the playoffs, yes, he can still play effectively in some games, but thanks to his micro fractrue surgery, he just cannot last the entire season without just having stretches of games where he just can't bring anything to the table because his knees are shot. Esteban Batista hasn't been able to get off the Atlanta Hawks bench, thats the definition of a scrub right there. Serviceable isn't going to replace what Kurt Thomas brought to the Suns.</p>

    I really don't think anyone considers Kevin Garnett a great shotblocker. When people think of great shotblockers, they are thinking about the great shotblockers in the league, Ben Wallace (3.6 BPG) and Marcus Camby (3.7 BPG). They think about all the great centers of the 90's, Ewing (4.0 BPG), Mourning (3.9 BPG), Robinson (4.5 BPG), Olajuwan (4.6 BPG), and Mutumbo (4.5 BPG). They think back to all 7'7" of Manute Bol, the first player from the Dinka Tribe to play in the NBA, he averaged 5 BPG. And we couldn't forget the great Mark Eaton, he averaged 5.6 BPG in the 1985 NBA SEason. These are great shotblockers. Just because you can block a shot doesn't mean that your a great shotblocker. Kevin Garnett's just average, which makes Skinner an average shotblocker. </p>

    PJ Brown, you say the Suns don't need his offense? Good, the Bulls didn't need that either last year. They needed rebounding and interior defense, but he just didn't bring any of that to Chicago last year. Michael Sweetney had a higher rebound rate than PJ Brown last year. If your getting outrebounded by a guy who physically cannot jump off of the ground, you aren't a good rebounder.</p>

    The idea isn't so much the Suns feeling the need that they don't need a young Luol Deng, its just the cheapness of their organization. They aren't willing to pay for a championship team. Its not the idea that they have to pay someone else with money. Thats not how money works in the NBA. There is a thing called Larry Bird Rights, and Early Bird Rights that would allow the Suns to retain all of their players. They are just plain cheap in not keeping any of their draft picks. They have money available to sign free agents, its not like they're limited to the veteran minimum. They have their Mid Level Exception available to sign players with. They have the Bi-Annual Exception to work with. They just CHOOSE not to use it. The money is there to make them a championship contender, but their owners care more about their money than a championship for the presigious Phoenix Suns franchise.</p>

    See you like to write a lot about those 2005, 2006, and 2007 years. But why? Isn't that going against your argument. Your trying to prove why they can win a championship. Why cite three years that proved that they cannot win a championship? All they have is excuses, and excuses aren't going to help them win a championship. Whats the excuse going to be after they don't win it this next year? and the next? The truth of the matter is that they just plain haven't been good enough to get it done, and trading away Kurt Thomas, and future draft picks isn't going to help you in that department. So then you have to look to the future for the Suns winning the championship, not in the past. What do I see in my crystal ball? I see a free agent Shawn Marion at the end of the year that the cheap Suns ownership has to decide whether they want to pay or not. I also see a San Antonio Spurs team that will have ample cap space. Improving yourself why making your opponents worse is a good strategy. But of course thats assuming that the Suns management hasn't already traded him for pennies on the dollar like they have been flirting with for some time.</p>

    The Suns are doomed. The only thing that can save the franchise is a well placed Piatowski karate punch to the owners head to knock some sense into him, so he actually spends some money, and tries to make this team a championship team, but the hole might have already been dug too deep.</p>
     
  13. pegs

    pegs My future wife.

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    Chris Webber would be useless for the Suns. I don't care about Webber, I don't see any point in them signing them. I believe they won't sign him, and he won't really help any team all that much in the long run. </p>

    And so now Brian Skinner's an average shotblocker? What happened to him being subpar? And what's wrong with that? If you ask me, that's pretty good, with the remaining free agents. Skinner would help them out with their shotblocking and defense.</p>

    Mike Sweetney didn't even play enough to be compared to P.J. Brown. and P.J.'s rebounding rates per 48 minutes are 46th in the nba, and offensive rebounding is solid as well, at 39th and per 48 he is ranked 25th. If you don't consider that "bringing rebounding to the team", I don't know what to tell you.
    And P.J. still brings excellent post defense as always. </p>

    You're completely missing my point. My point is, that mad bullshit happened that prevented them from winning the championship in past years. My point is that, without injuries and ridiculous NBA rules, the Suns should already be NBA champs. I believe that either this year or the next, the Suns won't have these "excuses" to get in the way, and will actually win the Championship. </p>

    I don't think "cheap" is the right word to describe the Phoenix Suns. In fact, that must be the worst word to describe them. Do you realize they are paying their players $70,370,610? that's 15 million over the salary cap, and 3 million over the luxury tax. How does that make them cheap? They're already paying too much money to their players, and they're letting go of rookies because they don't believe they'll help that much in the short run, when they're in win-now mode.</p>

    If you look at the champion Spurs, have they kept any rookies lately? And has any of the rookies other than tony parker made a good impact on the team? No. And no. Instead, they did what a champion should do: relied on veterans to help them get to the championship. They've been trading away draft picks left and right, and yet they have still constructed a championship team. A championship team is not completely made up of players drafted by the team, obviously, but instead of some drafted players, and some proven veterans who fit in with the team constructed. </p>

    I don't think you're getting that point. They're giving away Luol Deng not because they simply don't want to pay him, but because they believe that it's smarter to go after and rely on veterans to improve the team. Is that a wrong philosophy to have? Obviously not, because if you look at the Spurs, After drafting their best players, and creating their core, they have relied on signing proven veterans to fill in the holes on that team. In fact, they traded away Barbosa for what turned out to be Nazr Mohammed, who left the Spurs for the Pistons. Did that affect them that much? No, because they found veteran proven players to fill out their team, and eventually get them to a championship. </p>

    And that's why I believe, after adding veterans such as Bell, Hill, and by keeping their proven players to go along with their core, and by possibly adding another good, proven veteran, they are doing things the right way in building a good team. They have selected a group of players who have fit together extremely well, and by doing this, they can acheive exactly what the Spurs have: winning a championship. </p>
     
  14. Денг Гордон

    Денг Гордон Member

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    Cheap isn't necessarily the best word for the Suns ownership, as they have spent into the luxury tax. But you are missing the point. They are unwilling to spend any money in addition to what they already have. As proven over the last three seasons, they have paid enough to have a very good team, but not enough to have a championship team.</p>

    There is a worlds of difference between Phoenix and San Antonio, and what the teams are doing. Phoenix is just giving away rookies. The Phoenix Suns are over the cap right now, so all of their contracts since the Nash signing have been from exceptions. The MLE, LLE, and minimum player exception. The rookies they have are not cutting into their available money to spend under NBA rules. They could keep these rookies on the backburner, and try to develop them, while also going out and signing veterans to play in the rotation, but no, they are refusing to do both at the time, as seen by the shameless act of selling draft pick after draft pick. They can do both, but they choose not to, because they're unwilling to spend more money. They're not even willing to keep veterans, who would be IN THE ROTATION at this point, just to save more money, as evidenced by the Kurt Thomas trade to Seattle. They were only willing to spend up to a certain point, and unfortunately for the Phoenx Suns franchise, that wasn't enough to put them at a championship level of play.</p>

    San Antonio however has been brilliant in making themselves contenders AROUND keeping their draft picks. Tony Parker, taken at the end of the first round, 28th pick. They didn't need the young talent, they could have went and got veteran talent, which they did, but they also kept Parker, a young guy. The Phoenix Suns, ever since they were good, they just sell picks at the end of the first round. San Antonio, wow, if they just sold these picks citing they were already good enough, they wouldn't be among the NBA's elite. They drafted Manu Ginobli in 1999. They drafted Udrih in 2004. They kept young players, while adding veteran talent to help the cause of winning a championship such as Michael Finley, Brent Barry, and Fabrico Oberto. They just don't shamelessly get rid of proven talent to save money, ad evidenced by them keeping Bruce Bowen and Robert Horry around the last few years. Phoenix however, shamelessly trades rotation players that will be needed to help them win a championship. San Antonio also just did their typical draft mastery, taking Tiago Splitter. They could have just traded the pick, but no, they have someone that will help them in the future. They look to the future. Phoenix, was just concerned with the present, ignored the future, and now they are missing talent that could be helping them right now. Good thing that they felt they didn't need to keep the rookies around, but at the end of the day, it screwed them, and made them a lesser team.</p>

    Now were subscribing that mad bullshit is the reason they can't win a championship? And without "mad bullshit" they'll be able to win it, interesting. Do you want to know why the Suns haven't won a championship or even been able to get out of the East? They have no interior defense, and shipping off Thomas certainly doesn't help them in that department. San Antonio averaged 10.9 offensive rebounds per game in that series. Thats ridiculous. Your not going to win many games when your giving the team 11 second chance scoring opportunities per game. Tim Duncan absolutely torched the Suns in the series. Unshockingly, Tim Duncan's worst offensive game came in Game 5, when Kurt Thomas played 36 minutes. You need interior defense and interior rebounding from your big men to win an NBA championship. Shawn Marion's a good rebounder, but he doesn't have the size to box out big men in the paint, because he's just a combo forward. Amare is the only guy now, with Thomas gone, that could theoretically hold his own in a position battle in the paint, and he has been displayed to be awful at it. While the other teams in the West held pace or improved, Phoenix made their roster, which was already not good enough to win a championship worse, and took away any hope of stopping big men from scoring at will in the paint with the shipping off of Kurt Thomas. </p>
     
  15. pegs

    pegs My future wife.

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    It's doubtful Kurt Thomas would have even been important in the rotation next season. He's another year older, turning 34 in October, and has been hampered by injuries the past few years. And to make things clear, Kurt Thomas isn't even all that great of a defender. You say Duncan had his worst offensive game against Kurt Thomas? He also had his best offensive game against him, in another game where Thomas played 36 minutes, and Amare played only 26. So to say that Thomas really even made a difference with the Suns' inside defense while citing only one particular game that favors your statement is just...wrong. Thomas was simply an overpriced contract that the Suns didn't need all that much and could have replaced with P.J. Brown's solid interior defense and rebounding at a lower price. </p>

    The Suns compared to the Spurs are very similar. I mean, they drafted their main parts, Amare and Marion, and actually traded for a draft pick in Barbosa. And Nash they signed to a large contract. There, they built their core. They actually traded for a draft pick in Barbosa. Then, they started to build around them, at first with Johnson, Q-rich, Hunter, and Jackson, and then with T. Thomas, Kurt, Jones, Bell and Diaw, and now they have kept Diaw and Bell and added Grant Hill and are trying to add another big man in Brown. Notice that when they find something that doesn't work, they get rid of it (except in Tim, Hunter and Johson's case) and replace it with someone better. That's their formula to a winning team.</p>

    Now, the Spurs aren't doing the same thing? They drafted their core, Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker. Those 3, plus Udrih, are the only drafted players currently on their team. Udrih has contributed nothing to the team. Don't kid yourself there.
    And what about Scola, they got rid of him and Butler for what? What turned out to be nothing. Financial reasons. Just like the Suns. They did the exact same thing, there. The exact same thing. (I want to make that point clear.)
    Anyways, in addition to their core players, they've added other players through signing. Horry, Bowen, Barry, Finley, Oberto, Vaughn, and Elson. They've added and gotten rid of players, but they've tried to keep around players that work with the team, in Horry, Bowen, and Barry, and add to that with Finley, Oberto, Vaughn, and Elson.
    Just like the Suns are trying to do, with keeping around Diaw, Bell, Barbosa to go along with their core, and adding Hill and trying to add Brown to go along with those role players. That is the same thing the Spurs are doing, and it seems to be a Championship formula.</p>

    Oh, and with that business about the Spurs drafting Splitter (in addition to Marcus Williams, of course)...the Suns also kept both their draft picks this year, Alando Tucker and D.J. Strawberry. So...maybe they aren't completely ignoring the future..? </p>

    And yes, they have given up good talent in the past that could have made them better in Luol Deng and Sergio Rodriquez, but that doesn't mean the Suns still couldn't win the championship. The fact that they are a "lesser" team because of that doesn't take away from the fact that they could still win the championship with the team they have now. </p>

    And the Suns haven't been able to get out of the WEST* not mainly because of offensive rebounding and interior defense, because they don't seem to have any problem with giving those things up in any wins that they've had. Their biggest "problem" has been their lack of depth, and that only becomes a problem when something happens such as the Amare and Diaw suspensions. Without them in that Game 5, they didn't have enough players to come in and give starters a rest, and they ended up losing up a big lead because of the fatigue as a result of the suspensions.</p>

    I just want to talk about this statement..."San Antonio averaged 10.9 offensive rebounds per game in that series. Thats ridiculous. Your not going to win many games when your giving the team 11 second chance scoring opportunities per game." In the finals, the Spurs faced the Cleveland Cavaliers. 4 games. In those 4 games, the Cavs' offensive rebounds per game? 12.3 offensive rebounds per game. And the Spurs won all 4 of those. So...maybe offensive rebounding isn't everything.
    And to add to that, the Suns' offensive rebounding average was 8.7, about 2 offensive rebounds per game less than the Spurs' 10.9 offensive rebounds. Only 2 more scoring opportunities, and with the Suns' offensive prowess, that isn't that big of a deal...unless they're without 2 of their best offensive players. </p>

    This season or the next, the Suns shouldn't have that problem, because they've most likely learned their lesson on that. With their string of success during the season and the playoffs up until their eliminations, it's inevitable that they will succeed in winning the championship very soon. </p>
     
  16. Денг Гордон

    Денг Гордон Member

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    See, there lies the difference between the Spurs and the Suns. Yes San Antonio traded Scola and Barbosa, but both didn't do anything for the Spurs. Spurs aren't in a usual act of trading away their first round picks. They take them, and know they will need them for the future. The Suns on the other hand, they will trade away proven talent from their team. Joe Johnson, Quentin Richardson, Kurt Thomas. Spurs only trade guys that don't fit in, such as Jackie Butler, who was a monumental bust of a signing for San Antonio, while the Suns are trading guys that have fit into their team, and allowed the Suns some success. You mentioned earlier that Diaw and Marion was an effective front court. Not exactly true. There was a third component to that frontcourt. The 6'10", 245 pound Tim Thomas, who boasted the same size as Amare Stoudemire. They were able to sneak into the conference finals, and took the Mavericks all the way to game 6. Tim Thomas was HUGE in this. He averaged 15.1 PPG and 6.3 RPG. He scored those points at a very efficient, 62.5 TS%. Thats simply amazing. He was huge in that frontcourts success, and once again the Phoenix Suns ownership showed their true colors, not paying a guy who was vital in their previous season's success, allowing him to walk to the Clippers because they just didn't want to pay the money. Story of the Suns, and the story of why they haven't been able to win a championship yet.</p>

    You can't disregard offensive rebounds. Second chance points for a team as efficient as the Spurs is not something you want to give up. Not sure why your bringing up the Cavs. The Cavs only had so many offensive rebounds because the Spurs played blistering defense, causing the Cavs to miss 190 shots in those 4 games, just creating a plethora of offensive rebound opportunities for the Cavs.</p>

    Steve Nash is going to be 34 next season. Gary Payton saw a 5.9% decrease in scoring from his 33 year old season to his 34 year old season, 7.7% decrease in assists, from his 33 to 35 year old season, he saw a 33.9% decrease in scoring, and a 38.9% decrease in his assists. John Stockton from his 33 year old season to his 34 year old season, a 2% decrease in scoring, and a 6.3% decrease in assists. From his 33 to 35 year old, an 18.4% decrease in scoring, and a 24.1% decrease in assists. Tim Hardaway, from 33 to 34, he saw an 11.2% increase in scoring, but accompanied with a 14.9% decrease in assists. From 33 to 35, he saw a 28.4% decrease in scoring, and a 50% decrease in assists. Other great passers like Isiah Thomas, Kevin Johnson, and Louie Dampier didn't play that long, so we don't have stats for them to pad the overwhelming evidence towards point guard decline at the age that Nash is approaching. Magic Johnson of course sabotaged by the HIV virus that kept him out of the league until he was 36 years old.</p>

    Do you think that whoever is left of Amare, Barbosa, Diaw, Marion, Bell, the guys that the ownership don't decide to dump for financial purposes, will they improve enough to make up for the almost certain decline of Nash over the next two years? Nash might not decline terribly this year, as some guys have shown, but based on the decline of all the previous great point guards at that 35 years of age, I don't think the Suns will be in any discussion of contention in the West 2 years from now. They will be a second tier contender...the kind that gets thrown in the discussion, but realistically have zero shot of winning it. You could already see the wear on Steve Nash late in the playoffs. He has to play heavy minutes for the Suns to be successful, and as a running team, he is going up and down the court more than most players his age, so his decline could be even more dramatic as his body breaks down. We already see him sitting out the FIBA Americas, putting an end to the magnificent 12 year international career for America's hat. His body just can't handle both competitions. A lack of ability to workout because his body won't allow him to, will lead to a decline in ability, as well as eventually his body breaking down, and diminishing his physicality which allow him to be a successful ball player. A team led by Amare isn't going to win anything. You can't run an offense through him because of his subpar passing abilities, so where do the Suns go from there? The window for Nash winning a championship in Phoenix is closing quickly, the last 3 years were his best shot, he has one shot left, the windows still ajar, but it is centimeters from closing, leaving the Phoenix Suns with slim chances to win a championship this coming year, and it will be completely shut on them for the 2008-2009 season. A team from Texas will win the West next year, thus no championship for Nash in Phoenix. </p>

    </p>
     
  17. Денг Гордон

    Денг Гордон Member

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    Amare Stoudemire has surgery on his knee. It begins.</p>
     

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