Mirotic is 8th on the Bulls in 3 point percentage. Why is that?

Discussion in 'Chicago Bulls' started by kukoc4ever, Apr 14, 2015.

  1. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/chi/stats/?sort=nba.stat_type.12

    Guys that have higher 3 point shooting percentages on the Chicago Bulls than Mirotic.

    Gasol - 46.2
    Dunleavy - 40.9
    Brooks - 38.6
    Snell - 37.8
    Butler - 37.2
    Hinrich - 34.5
    Moore - 34.2

    Mirotic - 31.7
    Mcdermott - 31.7
    Rose - 28.3

    Mirotic is tied for 8th on the team in 3 point shooting percentage. Lower than Hinrich (gasp!)

    Explain this. 31.7 isn't a good 3 point shooting percentage. Only Derrick is lower.
     
  2. such sweet thunder

    such sweet thunder Member Staff Member Moderator

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    Some of Mirotic's poor shooting from the three point stripe probably has to do with him making the adjustment to playing at the NBA level. I agree, shooting 31.7 from three is not ideal.

    Why do you care though? Mirotic is still third on the team in efficiency:
    [​IMG]
    And while 31.7% from three isn't ideal, it certainly seems like its enough to make opposing teams guard him (opening up other players). Did you see this number crunching: http://triangleoffense.com/features...t-be-the-key-to-the-chicago-bulls-postseason/.

    Interesting stuff.
     
  3. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Yeah, I don't have a problem with Mirotic scoring 13 points on 10 shots going 1-10 from the field.

    13 points on 10 shots is terrific.

    His efficiency is so good because of the free throw attempts. But I think teams are getting wise to his eyebrow fake outside the 3pt line so he may not get to the line so easily.

    Case in point, last night he had 4 free throws. Though the refs didn't seem to call many fouls.
     
  4. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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    I don't have a problem with Niko.

    Is it safe to say that Niko isn't a very good 3 point shooter? (he can get better of course)

    ---

    That was a good article. I find it interesting that the article does not mention defense in any way.

    Two of those three guys in the frontcourt can't feed of Mirotic's brilliance while sitting on the bench.
     
  5. rosenthall

    rosenthall Well-Known Member

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    Mirotic is not a good three point shooter, but it's clear defenses guard him as if he would be one if left unchecked.
     
  6. such sweet thunder

    such sweet thunder Member Staff Member Moderator

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    Right. There isn't a direct line between showing that Mirotic makes Noah/Gibson and Gasol better and the conclusion that he should get more playing time. I do think, though, that the numbers inform the answer to whether we should care about Mirotic's meager 3pt percentage. He's a good enough shooter to make people guard him, and that opens up other opportunities.
     
  7. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    We all realize that the Bulls starters (that's minus Mirotic) built up an 11 point lead before Mirotic entered the game in Q3. The lead was as high as 14.

    upload_2015-4-14_8-17-10.png
     
  8. rosenthall

    rosenthall Well-Known Member

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    It's also worth noting that Nikola's 3PA per 36 is 6.8, which is highest on the team.

    Given the fact that he's guarded as someone who's a threat to hit the outside shot, this makes his presence more advantageous.

    This is compared to someone like Derrick, who takes a similar # of shots at a similar percentage, but is not guarded as someone who's a threat to hit the shot if left open. Or Jimmy Butler, who hits a decent percentage but takes a low # and usually only if he's left open, because teams don't assume his outside shooting is much of a threat.

    If teams take it upon themselves to guard you for the outside shot, all else being equal it's better to have the ability to still get off a high number of shots. This is more valuable if you can do it from the PF position because it means you can draw defenders away from the basket, which is less true of someone like Dunleavy or Brooks, who's defender is going to be on the perimeter anyway.

    Also, Hinrich shoots a higher %, but he's an incredibly low usage that other teams don't bother to guard and usually only shoots if he's wide open. Gasol shoots a good %, but only takes 0.4/36, and almost always in unique situations. (Ie, the corner 3 off out of bounds plays or at the end of the quarter).
     
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  9. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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    The rationale for using a stretch 4 is well known at this point. If the Bulls go down this road, they are followers, not innovators.

    At some point, defenders will stop guarding him as a serious threat behind the 3 point arc if he shoots a low enough percentage. I'm not sure what that exact number (looking for some articles if anyone has any to share) but Niko has to be close to it.

    http://stats.nba.com/leaders/#!?PerMode=Totals&StatCategory=FG3_PCT

    Dirk is the prototype at the position and he drains 38.1% of his threes.
    Patrick Patterson hits 36.8%
    Kevin Love hits 36%
    Ryan Anderson hits 33.8%
    Draymond Green hits 33.9%
    Milsap is at 35.8%
    Ilyasova is at 38.4%

    Its hard to find one of the leading stretch 4s in the league that is a poorer 3 point shooter than Mirotic.

    Just something to keep in mind before we build a franchise around a guy. At some point, the best way to defend him may be to say "shoot it Niko." At the very least don't overplay the three.

    Something for him to work on and for us to keep an eye on at the very least.

    And yes, the TS% of 55.6 is nice! Pau is at 55.1 and Gibson is at 54.8 so those guys are all in the same ballpark. Niko creates more space though. And is really good at getting to the line and is a good FT shooter.

    But, to this point, he does not appear to be a very good three point shooter. And, if you believe the man widely considered to be an expert in NBA defense, he needs to work on his defense. If you believe this man is an idiot, then pay it no mind.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2015
  10. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    I'm fairly confident Niko's 3pt shooting % will go up as he gains experience.

    He really needs to be able to do it from SF because we need a starting SF. He's pretty much able to do the same things he was last night from the SF position. Last night he was guarded by Joe Johnson, who's playing out of position at SF (he's been a SG his whole career).

    If he really is so good, he should be able to beat out DunVP.
     
  11. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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    Dunleavy is 10th in the entire NBA in 3 point shooting at a sizzling 40.9 percent. Mirotic is going to have to do an awful lot of improving to come close to that number.

    I think Mirotic does lose a lot of value playing the three. All the stretch 4 benefits go away. On the other hand, the front office created a logjam of very good players who are all deserving of minutes so I guess someone either has to not play or someone has to play out of position.
     
  12. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    I'd be happy with a 35% 3pt shooter who scores 20+ points per game over a 41% 3pt shooter who scores less than 5 points per game 33% of the time.
     
  13. rosenthall

    rosenthall Well-Known Member

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    There is innovator/follower, and then there is good idea/bad idea.

    I think the main point is that playing the guy who scores 26 points in 25 minutes on 15 shots is wise because it helps the team, not because others are doing it. This is also verified by his +/- numbers.

    This is a very Denny-esque argument, BTW.

    If this is true, then consider what's also true based on this statement: that as of right now NBA scouting departments choose to guard Mirotic for the 3 pt shot, even when accounting for his current %'s. So the number ought to be endogenous relative to everything else he can do on the court.

    That's true. If his 3 PT% continues to stay at 31% over the long run it'll affect how teams play him. However, if we were to use an "efficient markets" sort of interpretation of how he's guarded given his current 3 PT%, we would infer that NBA scouts expect this number to improve or at least be as efficient as his other ways of scoring (driving, getting to the line, post-up, etc) if they guarded him any differently.



    I agree with this.

    I'd guess a big reason why Niko doesn't get more time is that, despite his +/- numbers, Niko regularly makes mistakes with his defensive rotations that the fans don't see but Thibodeau does. Like you, I'm not in "Camp Thidiot." I'm in camp "I'll take the Devil We Have."

    I have never heard anyone who's worked with Thibodeau say anything other than that he's incredible focused and smart. I still think that's true and believe him to be an astute evaluator of talent. When it comes to how I evaluate him, I begin with the presumption of competence. And I make that statement incorporating his use of Hinrich and Mirotic, unlike many other commentators.
     
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  14. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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    That's true, although there is a benefit to having a low usage guy out there among high usage guys that creates space for the high usage guys and makes the D pay if they cheat. You can't have a starting lineup of 5 20 point scorers. Or maybe you can, but I can't remember seeing one. There is only one ball.

    In the Bulls starting lineup, the high usage guys are Rose, Gasol and Butler. I'm cool with Dunleavy in his current role. He's not a MVP of any type, just a good role player. And a very good 3 point shooter this season.
     
  15. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    I'd prefer a high usage capable guy out there who can get the hot hand, regardless of who else is out there.

    Nothing wrong with all 5 guys touching the ball and it doesn't matter who takes the shot as long as it's a really good shot.
     
  16. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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    Eugene Fama would be proud!

    My take is that NBA scouting is efficient, but not instantly efficient. Niko is still a wild card to many teams, although that decreases over time. Also, bringing a guy off the bench like that does alter what the D has to do mid-game, which is tricky.

    It will be interesting to see how teams decide to guard him in the playoffs once they truley game plan for him and see him over the course of several games.

    While the space creation is a plus with Niko at stretch 4, I do get concerned that the Bulls highest volume 3 point shooter (Rose) and one of their other guys that shoots a lot of threes (Niko) are average to poor 3 point shooters. That has to catch up to you eventually.
     
  17. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    He sure looks like he has range and a decent shot. It will fall, given enough attempts to get used to the deeper 3pt line.
     
  18. rosenthall

    rosenthall Well-Known Member

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    My take is that NBA scouting is efficient, but with a 5-10 game lag. That's about how long it takes for teams to adjust the way they play guys.

    For example, it seemed like it took about this long for teams to start targeting Doug when they realized he wasn't an NBA calibre player, and also about this long for teams to start guarding Tony more closely after he went on his hot streak.

    If that's true, I'd say that most teams guard Mirotic in an efficient manner, given he's been a high usage 3 PT shooter for most of the season and he came into the league with this perception.
     
  19. rosenthall

    rosenthall Well-Known Member

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    I think this is basically it. His % is not good, but he's historically been a very accurate shooter and has great mechanics and the ability to use them at the pro level, so teams guard him for it.
     
  20. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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    And the teams likely guard the established stretch 4s in the list I provided in a similar fashion (respecting the 3). If anything, Mirotic should have a bit more space on his 3 attempts since he is more dynamic with the pump fakes and drives than many of those guys.

    And the other guys still have higher 3 point percentages.

    We'll see in a couple years where he's at from the 3 point shooting percentage long term. He's a rookie so improvement is certainly possible / probable.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2015

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