So if the Chairman thinks we are good for 4 ' chips with Derrick....

Discussion in 'Chicago Bulls' started by FatJerry, Apr 25, 2011.

  1. FatJerry

    FatJerry Member

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    That would imply he's going to shell out to build a winner right ?

    And not just give Noah the obligatory extension and the summer of 2010 was a start in the right direction etc but this team as presently constituted is a 2nd round team / conference finalist at best.

    The Heat are going to round out their roster eventually and so are the Knicks . The Knicks probably moreso given their cap space to land an appropriate Center to lock down with Stodamire, Anthony and Billups.

    The real wild card is New Jersey.Dwight Howard is likely gone from the Magic and they would do well to take the leverage away from Howard and deal him for a rebuilding package kind of similar to what the approach the Jazz took with Wiliams

    Anyway , whilst the Magic may not want to see him in the East the only teams that can offer anything remotely interesting to the Magic ( assuming that Dwight and Adidas want him in a big market ) are the Lakers and Nets

    The point is that the Knicks , Heat and Nets will be likely be our biggest threats over the next several seasons.And they will have more talent then what we have.

    So does the Chairman really expect that this team has 4 in the tank as is ? That Derrick is good enough to do it all on it's own with support/ role players ?

    Or has the Chairman given the green light to GarPax to upgrade where we need to? To do whatever it takes ?

    Because if it's the former , I don think trading Asik for Lee is the kind of move that is good enough for us to win a championship.

    What we are needing is a genuine 2nd wing / guard star who will play 2nd fiddle to Derrick Rose.

    No one is just going to be handing us over Tyreke Evans , and so, what we must consider in what we do is who has the best chance of having star impact and still give us the versatility of what we need in terms of defense , ball handling , isolation , and 3 point shooting.

    All of my answers are coming back to OJ Mayo
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2011
  2. transplant

    transplant Global Moderator Staff Member Global Moderator

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    These Bulls won 62 games, best in the league. Their oldest rotation player is 30. Obviously, the Heat are serious threats and figure to remain so for a while. The Knicks and Nets better improve a lot or they won't stand a chance against the Bulls.

    On paper, the Bulls have a superstar at PG, an excellent all-around SF, a near-star at PF and one of the better young Cs in the league. They have young quality depth. They have a promising first-year head coach. That's a helluva lot to have going for you.

    Yup, they have SG by committee and that's the hole...a blind man can see it. Korver can shoot the lights out, but can't defend or handle. Brewer can defend and handle, but can't shoot with range. Bogans shouldn't play more than about 8mpg on a good team.

    The FO didn't want the committee approach...they wanted Redick. At the trade deadline, they again recognized the problem, but couldn't swallow the asking prices. I'm completely convinced that they will continue to try to address the obvious problem. They may not address it the way you want, but they'll do something.
     
  3. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    I'm thrilled with best regular season record, but I am not misled by it. It's great to have home court advantage, sure. But we may not be as good as our record for all sorts of reasons. It sure looks like the Spurs aren't as good as their record and Indy might be a lot better than theirs.

    Boozer is a perennial all-star. He's not being used very effectively.
     
  4. JayJohnstone

    JayJohnstone Active Member

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    2nd round team, at best? LOL.

    What's the attraction? The 12 PER in the regular season? The 6 PER in the playoffs? The fact that he has lost minutes to players like Tony Allen and Sam Young?
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2011
  5. transplant

    transplant Global Moderator Staff Member Global Moderator

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    I'm not misled by the 62 wins either. I just think that the Bulls have an awfully good and pretty young team and I feel very good about the team's future. Also it bothers me a bit when folks so easily assume that everyone else will improve but withhold this generosity from our favorite team.
     
  6. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    I think most people assume teams roughly improve the same internally, then figure on quality and quantity of draft picks, and factor in players recovering from injuries. And cap space.
     
  7. JayJohnstone

    JayJohnstone Active Member

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    So Boston with their mostly ancient core and young teams like OK should improve the same? Seems a bit simplistic.

    Chad Ford and John Hollinger liked our core the 2nd most for the future.
     
  8. FatJerry

    FatJerry Member

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    If you are going to quote me quote me accurately.

    I said 2nd round to conference finalist

    And in the absence of a 2nd star 3rd star when Miami can trot out James , Wade and Bosh and New York can trot out Anthony, Stodamire and a 3rd significant free agent and with Deron Williams in Jersey with Lopez and a shitload of cap room with a zilionaire owner in a major market......well yeah I don't think it's too unreasonable to assume this Bulls team is a 2nd round to conference finalist in the absence of a true 2nd star and certainly in the absence of a 3rd star.

    I see Mayo as a guy who was in a battle with Gay ( for the featured wing player role on that team ) and lost. So they have had success plugging roles in around Gay and Randolph who command the ball a lot and have a genuine point in Conley. The roles that they shave plugged in are rugged defender types and bit parts in what Allen , young and Battier provide.

    pers aside , he is a guy who is better than his role who has struggled this season to be sure where he has fallen victim to a basketball fit / financial shakedown as they have no role for him that fits his inherent talent or the preparedness to spend the money hat goes with that

    It's a risk but he's a talent and you have o take risk to find value
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2011
  9. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Boston loses some by their players getting older and gain some by Green and Rondo improving, and they get back some of the players' time lost to injury.
     
  10. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Agreed
     
  11. bullshooter

    bullshooter Active Member

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    Wow, isn't it a little early for this thread and to make up your mind about what this team is right now. And I don't see a team in the playoffs right now that is demonstrably better, so I have a hard time saying what they are until they are actually done.

    I'd take a shot on Mayo. He's got to be available and Memphis can't ask for much since they've already committed about $40 mil for Conley, Gay and Randolph. And they still have to lock up Gasol who's going to get at least as much as Noah. Would Memphis take the bulls 2 first round picks for next year's draft? I wouldn't give up anybody that Memphis might ask for like Asik, though.
     
  12. FatJerry

    FatJerry Member

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    No.

    I don't see the mystery as to who or what they are.

    And there are 2 teams, perhaps soon to be 3 teams in the East that have at least 2 genuine stars and maybe 3 . They are the Heat, Knicks and Nets.

    We can't go chicken little if we're serious about resourcing this team properly around Derrick.

    That's the whole point of the OP and as to whether the Chairman is prepared to put his money where his mouth is.

    Well Boston for one is better right now as are the Thunder and probably even the Heat

    And if you believe Frank Vogel and Danny Granger so are the Pacers

    I am with you on this.

    I refuse to give up Omer Asik . They have a young big project in Haddadi and a good solid scoring small big in Darrell Arthur. What they really need is a veteran 4th big in the rotation.

    They should hang on to Battier if they want to compete and have him back up the 3 and 2 behind Gay and Allen. Then they have Young to fill minutes up here as well and Xavier Henry is also there as project.

    They can acquire a veteran back up point to Conley , but really , the guy who we've got that I reckon they could really use is CJ Watson who is a genuine combo and $2M cheaper and a better fit for the role that they are trying to squeeze OJ into.

    CJ Watson and the Charlotte pick for me and then package our picks up at the botrtom of the first round to take Shelvin Mack

    I reckon that's a pretty square deal for both teams
     
  13. bullshooter

    bullshooter Active Member

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    That's a pretty bold call on shelvin mack. I really don't think the bulls are built for a championship if their primary pg backup is a rookie. In a year when they could get a veteran like Hinrich on a cheap deal, it'd be a lot more doable, but the second team plays off of the pg as much as the first team does and the bulls won 62 largely based on how well their second team played. I don't think that makes them a better team.

    Whoever they get at the 2 has to be either a better defender than Bogans, or a better 3 pt shooter than Korver, but preferably a better defender than Bogans who can shoot at a 40% from 3. If he can put the ball on the floor that's a bonus, but not the primary goal. To be a better team, they need more consistency from Boozer and more development in Noah's offensive game, not another perimeter scorer.
     
  14. transplant

    transplant Global Moderator Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Let me take the position that, based on what we know now, the Bulls should be no worse than the second best team in the East for the next several years. Please tell me why I'm wrong.
     
  15. JayJohnstone

    JayJohnstone Active Member

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    Great, I still think it's laugable....how do you think they will do this year?



    Didn't you forgot to put the Bulls behind Raptors assuming they get Jimmer or Mack, too? :ghoti:

    How is Lopez a star? What are Noah and Deng and Boozer?



    Gay is out right now. Shouldn't that role be available to Mayo? If they are ready to send him out for a 1st round pick, that's great. The "one" differnce maker out there? I don' think so.

    Seems really odd to start this thread when the Bulls have the best record in the league, one of the best young cores around, easy areas to improve (SG) & start poo-pooing about what the Knicks or the Nets might do.
     
  16. FatJerry

    FatJerry Member

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    Conference Finalist - taken out by the winner of the Celtics/Heat series.






    My we are fiesty today aren't we Jay?

    Here you go again inaccurately quoting me just to take the piss. If I thought the Raps had a prayer of overtaking us I would have said so . But I didn't .

    Lopez isn't a star , yet , maybe not even ever but he's on a trajectory to be a Top 5 Center in this league behind

    Howard
    Bogut
    Bynum
    Perkins

    Noah is awesome but I think he's more a 4 playing out of position like Horford , Jefferson and several others

    Love Deng and think he's a genuine 1st team ALL NBA defense this year and one of the better 2 way small forwards in the league. But its hard to justify Lu as Top 5 at his position let alone as a star. He's a great baller for this team but he doesn't have the game winnig talents that a James or Anthony have got.

    Boozer , I don't believe , is a championship calibre power forward. And this is not just because he has struggled this series . I formed this view a couple of years ago when I watched the Jazz crash against the Lakers in the Western Conference Finals and Boozer just could not deal with the size and additional pressure / urgency that comes with that size in that match up. I think he was also found out against the Pacers size ( Hibbert ) length ( Foster ) and athleticism ( McRoberts)

    I hope I am wrong.

    I think Boozer matches up OK against the Hawks and I am expecting a good series from him. I like him against the Heat too. Boston not so much . I think Garnett eats him alive. And certainly against the Lakers or Thunder out West I similarly think he gets rubbed out as a non factor





    I think its hard for him to regroup when he's been played out of role / our of rythym. I acknowledge that he's a pro and he's got to take some responsibility and find a way but I saw enough in his first 2 seasons to believe that he's a lot better than where he's pegged / where he's playing and I think he could be a very good fit for this team. I do see him thriving here.

    I'm not saying he's the one difference maker , but I think he's the most realistically obtainable possibility that won't fuck us up too much with

    A ) what he costs , and

    B ) Reliability ( unlike concerns I have surrounding JR Smith )

    I don't see it as odd at all

    I can see like our core of Noah and Boozer ( with Rose ) and recognise that they are not allstars and are unlikely to be stars because they're talent level just isn't there. This series proved to me that if Derrick is getting bashed we're one sparined ankle from going down the toilet because we have no genuine 2nd option. Boozer can be , but its too fickle on match ups.

    I see OJ as more likely / capable of being able to put a team on his back then Courtney Lee or JR Smith
     
  17. FatJerry

    FatJerry Member

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    Kurt has 1 more year to go on his contract

    And I wasn't necessarily handing the keys to Mack ..simply as a replacement for CJ who to me , largely , has been a bit disappointing

    I'd take Mack but pick up a cheap vet that can play 7 to 8 minutes a night when needed and be steady as a rock. Someone like Anthony Carter comes to mind.

    That would given you a guard rotation of Rose and Mayo with Lu at he 3 and backed up Korver, Brewer, Mack and Carter.

    Deep and solid

    Keep Taj and Omer behind Noah and Boozer and bring in Troy Murphy in place of Kirk as our stretch big

    We might find Murphy's game might help Boozer a bit - much like Okur's outside game helped Boozer in Utah
     
  18. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    It really depends on whether the Bulls can incrementally improve over the players they have now. As FJ has pointed out, the Knicks have a ton of cap space, so do the Nets, and the Heat have 3 superstars who are plenty young enough that adding with draft picks and MLE are certain to improve.

    The roster to me, and the team on the court, reminds me more of the Utah Jazz teams of recent years, and actually not as deep as those Jazz teams. The championship teams of recent years haven't been led by a superstar at PG, and have had more than one competent ball handler on the court (Fischer/Kobe/Odom, Pierce/Rondo, Ginobilli/Parker).

    Opponents have to be salivating at the idea of taking the ball out of Rose's hands and having Noah as our secondary ball handler.
     
  19. bullshooter

    bullshooter Active Member

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    I think CJ has been a lot more important than you are giving him credit for. You have to remember that Thibs runs a very structured and disciplined ship. CJ knows that if he goes outside of the bounds, he is going to get yanked in a hurry. At the same time, he is supposed to run the offense like DRose-lite. That's a tough balance when the guys he plays with are by and large not as talented as the guys Rose plays with, and Rose generates a lot of offense by freelancing and taking what would generally be considered questionable shots that would get CJ yanked. I am happy with him as a 10 minute a night backup pg and spot duty next to Rose.

    My biggest concern with OJ is the lack of size. I'm not sure he is big enough to guard some of the bigger 2s effectively. The main reason to do this versus trying to get Lee or Afflalo is to have a perimeter player who can create in the event Rose gets hurt. The offense is effective enough now that the bulls don't need to sacrifice defense to get more offense and as far as Noah being the point on a 3 on 2 break when Rose gets double teamed 40 feet from the basket, I think the bulls are salivating at the chance that happens. I'll take Noah faced up in the open court against most of the bigs in the league.
     
  20. JayJohnstone

    JayJohnstone Active Member

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    :crazy: It's a question. It's not a quote - inaccurate or otherwise.

    Great, we have a 22 year old superstar who IMHO is going to get better and better. And you apparently think the Bulls as presently constructed will likely never be able to do better than you think they will this year because teams like the Knicks and the Nets will be making such awesome moves even though their track record is overpaying in assets or money. Does as presently constructed mean the Bulls won't be using their draft picks, MLE, make minor trades, etc?

    And somehow guys like Perkins, Lopez and Mayo are difference makers when someone like Deng isn't.
     

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