You don't win titles with logjams

You win them with team balance.

Ford is an outstanding point guard in the uptempo style of game Colangelo likes the play, and while Villanueva may have more talent/upside, Ford makes the Raptors a better and more balanced team. Ford is also a sorely needed leader.

Bargnani + Ford + Bosh > Bargnani + Villanueva + Bosh

 

I concur with your statement and explanation. I like how our starting lineup is right now, because it is more balanced. Though, most of us fans are mad about the trade because CV's value certainly is worth more than TJ Ford, in our eyes atleast. Who knows..maybe everyone else was offering less than Ford to us for CV, though I doubt it.

The uptempo play kinda confuses me,considering that we took on Rasho, a non athletic big from the Spurs, and now acquire TJ Ford one of the quickest players, with and without the ball, end to end, in the league.

Also, Ford a leader? Never heard or knew about that. That's a bonus if he really is.

I really wish that we would of drafted Sene though instead of Bargnani .

 

I agree with you, and I just finished posting a longass version of the same point in the "CV traded for Ford" thread.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting P.A.P.:</div><div class="quote_post">
I really wish that we would of drafted Sene though instead of Bargnani .</div>

Then you'd have Ridnour too and we'd have Adam Morrison.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chutney:</div><div class="quote_post">I agree with you, and I just finished posting a longass version of the same point in the "CV traded for Ford" thread.</div>

I saw that had 132 replies and decided my point would probably come across better if I started a new thread.

I just think people underestimate just how good a player TJ Ford is.

 

i agree with the balance part
but toronto should never have drafted bargnani to begin with
should go with roy or morrison

then there would be no log jam

anyways.....i see it coming (charlie traded) when bargnani drafted
however i didn't expect it to be a swap
thought milwakee would add a 1st rounder with it
think about it
TJ ford's value goes down with the emergence of charlie bell and also the fact that maurice williams is more of a leader and clutch guy than ford is

toronto should have gotten either a draft pick or a player

 

I think we might have been forced to choose between Bosh and Villanueva in the future anyway. I certainly thought that CV was headed towards a big payday after his rookie contract expired, following such a great debut. If we had two high-paid forwards, we may have been in the same situation that Sir Desmond is talking about, where we would have to ship out one for more depth at the other positions.

 

There was never any log jam:

C - Andrea Bargnani / Chris Bosh
PF - Chris Bosh / Andrea Bargnani
SF - Charlie Villanueva

Not to mention Toronto already had a T.J Ford type point guard in Jose Calderon, Mike James is officially still with the team and with cap room, they could've targeted a better floor leader like Brevin Knight.

I dont think the problem with fans lies in aquiring T.J Ford, who is a good player, I think it has more to do with the cost at which they gave Charlie Villanueva away. In reality, they should've at least been asking for Jamaal Magloire or a future first round pick also. Add to the fact T.J Ford has just returned from a career threatining neck injury, for Charlie Villanueva alone, it simply isnt a fair trade.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">I dont think the problem with fans lies in aquiring T.J Ford, who is a good player, I think it has more to do with the cost at which they gave Charlie Villanueva away. In reality, they should've at least been asking for Jamaal Magloire or a future first round pick also. Add to the fact T.J Ford has just returned from a career threatining neck injury, for Charlie Villanueva alone, it simply isnt a fair trade.</div>
This thread explains how there is no risk with TJ Ford's spine:http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56057

Secondly, I think you're really downplaying our PG situation prior to this trade. Calderon showed himself to be a developing player last year. He was a great spark off the bench, but was a horrible shooter and had problems running set plays. We can't safely count on a whole lot from him. And Mike James was clearly not meant for this team. He hogged the ball, was unrepentant about his refusal to pass, and limited Bosh to a certain extent. For a player that simply blew us away early on, with his great scoring ability, he sure turned off most Raps fans (except BlueBayou) by the end of the season, with his bad decision-making and contract demands.

 

Regardless of what that post says, its common knowledge that once you have injured a part of your body, it will never be 100% back to how it was before the injury took place.

In saying that, T.J Ford proved last season that his neck isnt a problem, he's good to go, but If I was a GM (which I'm not), its definatley somthing that would play in the back of my mind if I were to trade for him.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">Regardless of what that post says, its common knowledge that once you have injured a part of your body, it will never be 100% back to how it was before the injury took place.

In saying that, T.J Ford proved last season that his neck isnt a problem, he's good to go, but If I was a GM (which I'm not), its definatley somthing that would play in the back of my mind if I were to trade for him.</div>
No offense, but I'm more willing to believe that post's description of the entire situation. It was well researched and logical. After reading it, I honestly have no concerns about Ford's spine "acting up." Whether or not he gets injured again is still unknown. But he has as little a chance of being injured again, as every other player without a significant injury history.

Of course, I'm not saying the trade is perfect. I still agree with your final point, that Colangelo didn't exploit Villanueva's higher trade value. I'm just saying, in terms of our entire team, we are more balanced and ready to win now, than before the trade was made.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">If anything I think people may be overrating how good of a player Ford is. He was 13th in the league in apg but 36th in the league in assist/turnover ratio and he was on a team where all the starters were very capable offensively. I think "pure PGs" often get overrated by alot of fans, sure they can be helpful in running a team properly and helping create offense but they really have no more success than combo guards playing PG. I think alot of fans hear TJ Ford being labeled with the "pure PG" tag and that makes them forget about other aspects of a players' game such as defense or scoring ability, which Ford doesnt excel in.

I haven't seen a whole lot of Ford but supposedly he was being outplayed by Mo Williams (not a pure PG), his defense is poor, and he can't shoot well at all. He's undersized and turnover prone but the "pure PG" tag makes alot of people forget about all of these faults because, theoretically, he can run a team better than a Mo Williams or Derek Fisher type of PG (both of whom had a better ast/to ratio). Dont get me wrong though, Ford is a nice PG from what I've seen, but not worth a big man coming off a great rookie season.

The Raptors starting lineup looks more balanced now but I just think the trade was extremely lopsided in terms of the talent and upside of each player. The Raptors could have at least gotten a future second rounder or two thrown in or a cheap bench player to add to their depth or something extra.</div>

We are talking about a player coming back after a career threatening injury, are we not? He had a superb rookie season and showed at Texas he is a genuine floor leader. It was always going to take him a while to get back into the groove of an NBA schedule. He started out like a house on fire before tiring, and realistically, that was probably expected given what he was coming back from.

I'm not surprised Mo Williams was outplaying him either, and Charlie Bell by the end of the season, because I don't think anyone really expected TJ to play at a high level for the whole season. He'll be a lot better for having that first season back under his belt. I agree his J isn't flash and his defense can improve, but he is a guy who makes his teammates better and can spread the floor. Mike James is not that, and I haven't seen enough of Calderon to comment, but he makes a nice one two punch with Ford at the one now if he is as good as Raptor fans suggest.

I just think it makes Toronto a better team, and that's what gets overlooked because so many people are orgasming over Charlie's rookie season. This trade makes the Raptors a genuine playoff contender IMO, and they have the pieces to cover Villanueva's output.

I don't buy Bargnani being a centre either - his strengths are his shooting and ball handling for a big man, and he doesn't have a post game. He's likely going to end up creating mismatches at the three, while also spending time at the four with Bosh in the middle.

 

Well Toronto did have a lot of forwards. Lets see.. Bosh, Bargnani, Sow, Humphries, Charlie, Euro Kurt Thomas (dude coming from Europe). However if u had a lineup of Bargnani, Bosh, Villanueva - Rasho, Humphries, Sow and the Euro Kurt Thomas would want minutes. Then u have Joey Graham and PJ Tucker *SG too. Not to mention Alvin Williams maybe, Roko Ukic if he comes over this season or next, logging in PG and SG. If James resigned the lineup would probably consist of James, Mo Pete, Charlie, Bosh, Andrea. The log jams would occur with Rasho probably playin 20 minutes. Sow would be hidden deep on the bench. Humphries would play like 5 minutes or so maybe less. Then u still have to play that Euro Kurt Thomas. Joey Graham would log in 12 or less. If Morris Peterson logs in 35 minutes, that would like about 13 left for PJ Tucker, Roko if he came over, some of those minutes would go to Mike James too since you'd want either Roko or Calderon playing too. Not to forget Darrick Martin could log in PG time. Not to mention Alvin probably wanting minutes too. Also Bosh would probably log in 40 minutes night in and night out.

With the TJ Ford deal, Raps won't likely resign Mike James, that moves Andrea to SF, and Rasho to starting Center. Frees up some log jams for Euro Kurt, Humphries, Sow. With that, Joey, Tucker could log in some more minutes same with the PG/SG players like Alvin, Calderon, Roko.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chutney:</div><div class="quote_post">Secondly, I think you're really downplaying our PG situation prior to this trade. Calderon showed himself to be a developing player last year. He was a great spark off the bench, but was a horrible shooter and had problems running set plays. We can't safely count on a whole lot from him. And Mike James was clearly not meant for this team. He hogged the ball, was unrepentant about his refusal to pass, and limited Bosh to a certain extent. For a player that simply blew us away early on, with his great scoring ability, he sure turned off most Raps fans (except BlueBayou) by the end of the season, with his bad decision-making and contract demands.</div>

In all fairness, from my understanding, Calderon isnt that much of a down grade from Ford. Both are turn over prone, both are horrible shooters, both are defensive liabilities, both run the floor seemingly well etc. I just think it would've been a better option to take a risk starting Calderon, allowing them to keep Villaneuva in the process.

Also I think the real question here isnt on T.J Ford, its on Andrea Bargnani, who has potential, but nothing more. He's come off an average season in Italy (11ppg, 6rpg his final season), and now has the weight of the world on his shoulders in the best league in the world. Giving up a young proven future all star to put all your faith into some one who hasnt really shown anything, doesnt sit well with me.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">In all fairness, from my understanding, Calderon isnt that much of a down grade from Ford. Both are turn over prone, both are horrible shooters, both are defensive liabilities, both run the floor seemingly well etc. I just think it would've been a better option to take a risk starting Calderon, allowing them to keep Villaneuva in the process.

Also I think the real question here isnt on T.J Ford, its on Andrea Bargnani, who has potential, but nothing more. He's come off an average season in Italy (11ppg, 6rpg his final season), and now has the weight of the world on his shoulders in the best league in the world. Giving up a young proven future all star to put all your faith into some one who hasnt really shown anything, doesnt sit well with me.</div>
Calderon is a significant downgrade from Ford. Even as a bench player he showed signs of wearing down from a full NBA schedule. He had a small injury and went through a brutal couple of months where he couldn't earn any minutes competing with Darrick Martin. Don't get me wrong, he's got potential and has excellent vision and passing ability. But, I think throwing him into a starting role would only have stunted his development, at this point.

I also think Colangelo's riding a lot on Bargnani. But considering how much work he's put into him, I'm willing to buy into his gamble. I mean, seriously, I don't think there is anyone out there who is better informed than the Raps staff. They have the GM of Treviso, who mentored Bargnani to his current position. Colangelo, himself, has monitered Andrea for the past couple of years. And the head coach and owner both went to watch him play in the EuroLeague playoffs. Also, the 11 ppg in Europe is not as bad as you may think. Gasol and Dirk both averaged similar number before coming over and, unlike Darko, Skita, and other Euro-busts, Bargnani has had held a consistent spot and role on Benneton's starting lineup.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chutney:</div><div class="quote_post">I mean, seriously, I don't think there is anyone out there who is better informed than the Raps staff. They have the GM of Treviso, who mentored Bargnani to his current position. Colangelo, himself, has monitered Andrea for the past couple of years. And the head coach and owner both went to watch him play in the EuroLeague playoffs. Also, the 11 ppg in Europe is not as bad as you may think. Gasol and Dirk both averaged similar number before coming over and, unlike Darko, Skita, and other Euro-busts, Bargnani has had held a consistent spot and role on Benneton's starting lineup.</div>

I don't think you can put too much into what his opinion of Bargnani is. He is obviously going to be biased toward his own player. Also, he's been the GM of a Euroleague team but that doesn't necessarily mean that he knows what it entails to be successful in the NBA.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think you can put too much into what his opinion of Bargnani is. He is obviously going to be biased toward his own player. Also, he's been the GM of a Euroleague team but that doesn't necessarily mean that he knows what it entails to be successful in the NBA.</div>
Well, he's considered the best executive in Europe and is supposed to have a great understanding of the European game, etc. He's seen the success and failure of several Euro prospects and obviously has a handle of what it takes to make the NBA. As for bias, Gherardini probably has some. But, he also watched the failure of another of his players, 'Skita, and has already admitted why he wasn't successful.

 

Whats with this talk about a logjam??

I dont consider Bosh manning the 4, CV31 putting in his 30 minutes at the 3,4,5..and AB coming off the bench a logjam.

ITS 3 PLAYERS. BARGNANI IS A ROOKIE!

Trading away CV31 we now have Bosh, a rookie, untested and 20 year old Bargnani and then what? Rasho? Sow? Graham? Hardly what i would call a steller bench.

I dont see why its so crazy to keep CV31 as a starter, keep Bosh as a starter, and then use AB coming off the bench or occasionally playing all 3 at the same time, which was done last year with it being Bosh, CV31, Bonner.

He's a rookie, people are acting like we just aquired Al Harington