Time for Netflix. It's a good show, BTW. Thanks for cluing me in. I'm not sure I have enough to analyze Zach Addy, especially without the dissertation episode, but I'll work on it. offhand, I don't think it fits his character to complete a PhD, unless it took him nine years.
Here goes. (Deep breath.) I understand why Zach Addy reminds Ghoti of me. In many ways, he’s correct, but it isn’t a perfect match—and the reason for that may solely be because the show’s writers haven’t portrayed him as well as they could. Or it could be that Zach is a little different than me. Eric, I think I’m going to need your help to sort it out. I’m a big believer in the Myers-Briggs brain type indicator test. According to Myers-Briggs, there are 16 distinct personality types that explain and reveal how people process information and interact with the world around them. [In case this is new to some of you, I’ll be happy to start a separate thread on it] According to this model, there are four different “scales”, and you can have one of the two attributes on each scale to varying degrees. That leads to 16 permutations. Each of the four scales interact with each other, to form a vibrant, detailed, descriptive understanding of what motivates a person’s behavior—in other words, the “whole” is more than just the four “parts.” I am what is known as an INTP—actually, a pretty extreme INTP. INTP stands for Introvert/Intuition/Thinking/Perceiving. The words used in the Myers-Briggs typing (such as introvert) don’t have the same meaning as ordinary usage, but you get used to it. In this case, for instance, an “introvert” is someone who focuses on their own internal thoughts and ideas, someone who reflects on a question before answering it—and generally likes to think before they act. They like quiet spaces, and they need to be alone to “recharge their batteries.” They also prefer to work alone. The opposite of “introvert” is “extravert,” who is someone who talks while they think of what they ultimately want to say. Anyway, one of the archetypical characteristics of the INTP is that he or she finds patterns in limited sets of data. They think independently to solve complex problems in an unstructured environment. The stereotype of the “absent-minded professor” is an INTP—as was Einstein, Newton, Darwin, etc.—basically all great scientists. Zach Addy has these characteristics. In one episode, Zach discovered a pattern in the use of the number “12” and was able to use this to figure out who the murderer was, and where the victim’s head was buried. At first glance, he certainly seems like an INTP; this is exactly the sort of ability that the typical INTP would have. Another give-away is that he started two PhD degrees and finished neither. INTPs are poor at school, and are driven by their own quest for knowledge, not for something tangible like a degree. They often lose interest when they can conceptualize finishing a project, and at that point want to move on to something else. They are pretty likely to end up off track and changing directions. (BTW, in my view it is nearly impossible for an INTP to become a scientist, just because of all the crap you have to go through to get a science undergrad degree, which is far better suited to a different personality type, the xSTJ. INTPs will just struggle to memorize formulae and chemical reactions; they are better at understanding concepts and drawing analogies). The problem is that there is a definite cost to having these skills, and they are costs that I haven’t really seen in Zach Addy. An INTP is a poor leader, since they don’t really have many people skills and would rather be working independently by themselves. This seems like Zach. They also interact on an intellectual rather than an emotional level. They prefer to communicate via e-mail than by telephone. However, INTPs tend to procrastinate, work in a messy environment (they only care about cleaning things up if the mess starts to interfere with their thoughts). They hate timetables. They also present their views as tentative and will always want to collect data indefinitely to continue to hone their ideas and theories. When they argue with others, it will be more to convince THEMSELVES of the right answer, then to convince others, so they can change their minds as they collect more information, and they don’t see anything inconsistent about that. They prefer to present options over certainties, to focus on a process for finding an answer more than the answer itself. They are easy-going and spontaneous, but also shy and awkward. Often when trying to explain their ideas to others, they get so bogged down in details, that no one else can follow what they are talking about, so they are often dismissed as nuts. They also often get so focused on their own thoughts inside their head that they become oblivious to the world around them, and can get annoyed if someone approaches them and forces them to interact. They don’t fit in, because non-INTPs see them as daydreaming time-wasters who don’t follow rules. One common weakness among INTPs is that once they conceptualize how to finish a project, they lose motivation to actually finish it. [Darwin, for example, took 16 years to write Origin of Species, partly for this reason, partly because he kept collecting more and more data—he only published when a colleague independently developed the same theory and was about to publish it himself] I haven’t seen any of these things in Zach. It seems as though he doesn’t exhibit these weaknesses (other than being socially awkward). However, it may be that he is an INTJ and not an INTP—I don’t really have enough information from what I’ve seen to draw a conclusion. He is DEFINITELY an INT-something. There is no question about that. This is where I need your help. If Zach is a “P”, he would be more interested in gathering information; he would constantly seek additional options; he would be flexible. He would enjoy starting tasks, but leaving them unfinished and taking up others (like not finishing two PhDs). He would postpone decisions in order to discover and weigh more options. He would feel restricted by too much structure. If he was a “J,” though, he would prefer to make decisions than to collect options. He would set goals, and be organized. He would prefer to plan his day out in advance, and he would get upset if something came up that he didn’t expect, throwing his schedule off. He would seek structure and focus on completing the tasks at hand. One great example of the difference between a “J” and a “P” is that a “J” will make a list of all the things he has to accomplish, and cross things off when they are finished. If he does something not on the list, he will add it and then cross it off. A “P”, on the other hand, will also make a list—but then he’ll lose it and forget that he ever made one. Another difference can be stated this way: If a “J”’s boss visits him in the morning and says, “J, I have a new project for you to do, and it has to be finished by the end of the day,” The J will slam his door in anger and pout for three hours. This has completely upset his schedule! Then he’ll get over it, and methodically complete the task by the end of the day. When the boss goes to see the “P,” he is just thrilled: He gets a chance to do something new, something he hasn’t done before! But then, instead of diving right in, the P will go get some coffee, go talk to someone down the hall, go surf the internet, etc. At around 2:00 p.m., the P will finally turn around to the task, work feverishly, and finish just at the same time as the J. Two different approaches, same result. So Eric, you have to help me. Is Zach a J or a P? If he is a P, as I’ve said, he hasn’t been portrayed by the writers as well as he could have been . . . if he is a J, well, then I have to do more research into what an INTJ is normally like. [incidentally, the reason why I’ve attacked this right now is because, in true INTP fashion, I am procrastinating from doing something else, and hoping that I will free my mind by doing something else for an hour]
Eric seems to be taking the Kathy Griffin approach to getting in the mags. Any press is good press, which in his industry I agree for the most part. Actually, I'd love to see Eric join the "D-List" on Bravo with Kathy for a week. Have him take her to a Laker/Blazer game.
Just spitballing here, but I am guessing that you just put more thought into Zach Addy's character development than the team of writers did combined while Zach was on the show.
The official test is not publicly available, and you have to spend several hundred dollars to take it (but many large corporations offer it to their employees). There are some reasonable proxies for the official test that are floating on ther internet, but where they are lacking is in the descriptions once the test tells you what you are. I'll try and dig up the better ones.
It's funny, but I am really appreciative of Eric and Ghoti for focusing me on this right now. I'm writing a story right now where one of the major characters is a ten-year-old INTP, and I have a terrible case of writer's block, and all this has been helping me focus a little better on who he is and the way he might act.
An idea...it's the mid-80s, and an INTP kid with a fascination with the dead, who will ultimately will become a serial killer who works in forensics with some snarky cops...
ha, no. it's a story I'm writing for my six-year-old daughter, and it has gotten completely out of control. When she was 4, she simply asked me to tell her a story about two ten-year-old twins that she made up, and now it has morphed into a 200+ page adventure novel that is far above her reading level. Now you tell me if I fit that profile. I'm just stuck on a couple of chapters in the middle, then I'll be done, except for some editing. edit: but of course, I waited a year and a half before I started it. That's a given.
Dumpy- "The Pain in the Heart" is the follow up to the episode in which "Angel" gets shot. So check that out if you like. It's a pretty good episode. As for your question about Zach, I'll ask the creator what he thinks.
thanks. As for "Pain in the Heart"--it's atop my Netflix queue, shoving aside the 28 disks of Grey's Anatomy, Ugly Betty, The O.C., and The Wire that someone else has put there . . .
Dumpy, The Wire is one of the best shows you will ever watch. Make sure you catch that one with Mrs. Dumpy. If you can get all that out of an odd, funny character on a lighthearted show like Bones, you will go nuts analyzing the incredibly deep, multilayered characters in The Wire.
I just don't have the time. I have to focus on finishing this !@#$ing story for my daughter without getting sidetracked. Once the NBA season starts I'm probably doomed. The other thing is that I just prefer to follow the characters that exist in my head than to watch someone else's characters on TV.
One more thing: It's probably really hard to accurately portray an INTP on a TV show, since they are kind of eccentric, but you can throw in little tidbits, such as having Zach work in a messy lab, be not really that concerned with his personal appearance, and that sometimes other characters have to call his name a few times before he emerges from his thoughts and realises that they're talking to him. But again, maybe he's an INTJ, so it would therefore make sense that he doesn't do those things. It would also then make sense that he can quickly reach a conclusion as to who committed a murder (without continually searching for more possibilities or more options), or what the ramifications are for certain evidence, without doubting his judgment. Those are definitely "J" qualities. I just don't know whether an INTJ can make the logical jumps and reach conclusions on limited data like he does (or at least what I saw in that one episode about the buried head). That's why I feel like there's a disconnect with his characterisitics (at least from what I've seen in the couple episodes I've watched). But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe some of the INTJs here can help me out on that one. I would think that the Myers-Briggs archetypes could be a valuable tool for an actor. If you could figure out what type a character is from what little you know about them, you can find out so much more, such as how they'd act in their personal relationships, how emotional and attached they get to objects, how reflective they are, whether they tend to lose their temper, etc. What motivates the character to succeed. I guess the value would partially depend on how much the leeway the director and writers would give the actor in helping to flesh out the character.
Hart Hanson, the creator of the show, says the character is classically a person with Aspberger's syndrome.
wow--I--that's interesting. Check this out: http://www.anxietyzone.com/conditions/aspergers_syndrome.html I have to think about this some more, do some research about the condition, and watch that episode again in that light. Thanks!
Plenty of INTP's on that list--Einstein, obviously. It seems like Asperger's is the INTP brain on steroids. using myself as a guineau pig (as an INTP archetype), I took this test to see if I had Asperger's. http://www.okcupid.com/tests/take?testid=1982215450153908026 Sasha's dad? I told my wife about this thread and she immediately accused me of not always recognizing social cues either. At least the test says that ai don't have Asperger's. I'll concede eccentricity. Zach is clearly an INTP. He should be portrayed as being more focused on his work and sometimes "hard to reach" by people talking to him. As far as I can tell, those other typical INTP traits don't disappear when someone has Asperger's. This has been fun. Eric, I hope this has been interesting to you . . . and I haven't just been misreading social cues, and you have been waiting patiently for me to stop and go away.
He was considerate enough of your efforts that he asked the show's creator about the character's personality type. That was cool and I found it really interesting. I have a psychology degree and have seen every episode of Bones and I never considered whether Zach has Asperger's.
