(If we can't, just let me know and I'll stop...don't want to get banned) quote from Hasoos: off the to of my head Abortion Stem Cell research Prayer in School Book Banning Internet censorship TV Censorship Opposition to right to die Teaching creationism in schools Giving government grants to Faith based initiative groups Don't know the religious background, so it makes it a little difficult to deal with specific issues, but I think the one thing that isn't happening is that Christian ideals are being forced down anyone's throat. In fact, over the last quarter-century, more and more "religious" freedoms were taken away in the name of "separation of church and state", in which most people (I will not surmise whether you are one or not) are completely off-base in their understanding. Teaching "creationism" in schools may not be popular, but it has a lot less holes than the theory of "darwinism" does. If you have a chance, check out from the library a copy of "the Genesis Flood", which is pretty good about the scientific and engineering principles behind the biblical view of Creation. One of the sad things about the state of our education system is that other "religions" and "gods" have been set up in direct opposition to the God of the Bible/Torah/Koran in our society. Global Warming is, currently, an unfounded scientific principle that many use to attempt to explain phenomena in our world. It is no more proven than the Six Day Creation theory, yet many (who generally are liberal-progressive in their worldview, though I wouldn't just generally apply that moniker to all of them) seem to think that if you attempt to disprove Global Warming, you're a religious nut, an unscientific rube, or in the pockets of Big Oil. Should you attempt to introduce Six-Day Creation as a competing "theory" to the Theory of Evolution, it's blasphemous and cause for dismissal. (just the first example.. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,259844,00.html) Prayer in school has been successfully removed by "progressives". Sex education is taught to kindergartners in California. Abortion has been legal for 30 years. Each of these has taken a value I hold dearly, and turned it into something that is illegal or perverse. How is that being forced down YOUR throat? Suicide has been illegal since the birth of our country. Upholding that law is having "religion shoved down your throat?" I don't know about censorship, other than I can watch just about anything on any channel of my television, and if it's not there, I can darn sure find it on the internet. I can't remember the last time a book was able to be banned from school curricula (though I'm sure one can be found), other than religious texts. I don't know much about grants to faith-based religious groups, so I can't speak about that one, sorry. I'll add some. Marriage has been changed into something it isn't. If you want to have a "civil union", cool beans. No problems with your freedom to pursue happiness. But I have a problem with those who illegally had a marriage performed (mayor of SF--I'm looking at you) when it was against the law, but it's not prosecuted because no one wants to tell a homosexual it's wrong to break the law. I would submit that that is having someone else's religion shoved down my throat, as an American who believes in laws. "Progressive" judges who think that their bench is an excuse to promote their philosophy that man is generally good, and have no accountability in their sentencing, is something else shoved down my throat. I'll stop for now. </soapbox>
My take is that Secular Humanism is a religion in its own right and that is being forced down our throats. I'm not in the least religious, so I'm not personally affected by pushing religious freedoms from the public square...
I think there's a big backlash with religious types, most notably the "bible belters". Almost as bad as there is with muslim extremism. However, making fun of muslims is a no-no, while making fun of christians is perfectly acceptable. Making fun of jews is only acceptable if its coming from a jewish person. Kind of a strange standard we have going, but catholics are a pretty targeted group by pop culture.
I don't even have problems with "making fun" of me for Christian beliefs...it's what I believe. But I don't like people to tell me I can't practice them, or who persecute me when I rail against someone's perversion of them.
oh no, then you would be closeminded. they would stop at no chance to "rail" on you for your beliefs, in fact. you are closeminded because you won't blindly believe what they do.
I don't know if you have ever heard my theory on religion but here goes...... I just can't find it in myself to believe. I went to church as a child growing up but could never find the faith people spoke of.....in fact I sometimes think awful things about those that do. BUT.... People who make fun of you for your beliefs are stupid fucking idiots. Think about it, if you are wrong and there is no God what is going to happen when you die? Nothing, you will be dead and never know that you were wrong. If you think there is no God like me and die, what happens if you are wrong? According to what I was taught you will burn in hell. NOT GOOD So, living a Christian lifestyle is a good thing whether or not there is an afterlife.....Heaven is just a bonus I guess.
Yeah...that's a common claim. It's known as Pascal's Wager. The main flaw in the argument is that there is more than one religion. Believe in Christianity all you want...being wrong doesn't necessarily mean "no God." Being wrong could mean that Islam is correct and you've been following the wrong religion. Bad news. So, really, the argument doesn't work. No matter what religious stance you take, you risk eternal damnation. So, you may as well believe what you want.
Pascal's Wager's never made sense to me. I have a hard time believing that someone would be rewarded for their faith, when that faith was only motivated by a fear of "being wrong." As a religious person, I find it hard to accept that kind of insincerity as real religious belief. As for the whole creationism in schools thing, the problem I have is that creationists insist on it being taught in science classes. Say what you want about the holes in evolution theory (the Precambrian gap, etc.), but these theories are scientific in that they acknowledge the possibility of error. In that way, they are scientific theories/hypothesis in the true sense of the word. That crucial aspect is entirely absent from creationist theory. There can be no possibility of error in creationism and that goes entirely against one of the fundamental tenets of science. I also find creationist arguments and books to be some of the most mind-numbing demagoguery I've ever encountered.
give me a break. we all mock beliefs we think are blatantly irrational. if someone came on this forum and said they sincerely believe elvis is still alive what do you think the reaction would be? if you want to be more specific and say that mocking someone personally for their deeply-held religious belief is not likely to be socially productive i'd agree, but there should not be anything wrong with mocking the belief itself. now that's original : ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager
http://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/russell2.htm http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/rusisgod.htm http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/russell7.htm
There is no place for prayer of any kind in a PUBLIC school. Sex education is NOT taught to kindergarteners in California. Let's not address abortion [for now]. What value was "taken" away from you exactly??? Nothing you've listed in your quote has been taken and/or forced down your throat...
Yeah, good analogy. Elvis and religion are sooooo the same. I wasn't saying that PRETENDING to believe in something is a good wager as this Pascal thing is about. Sorry for not being 100 percent clear. This French douchebag seems to think that PRETENDING you believe in something is going to help in the afterlife. The bible I read doesn't say anything about pretending to be a good person and God will let you in. MY FUCKING POINT IS THAT I DON'T BELIEVE BUT IF SOMEONE ELSE DOES WHY SHOULD THEY GIVE TWO FLYING FUCKS WHAT ANYONE ELSE THINKS? For all you fucktards that can't understand things unless you read about what some ancient dude wrote about it before someone invented the internet how about this..... In the movie Shallow Hal, Hal was pissed that Jason Alexander's character fucked the way he viewed Gwenyth Paltrow's character. As he should have been, who cared what George Costanza thinks? People always gotta fuck with you when you have something good going. So there is nothing wrong with mocking a Christian but it is wrong to mock someone who mocks Christians? This reminds me of how the left wants tolerance but won't tolerate those who don't agree with them.
If your belief can't stand up to criticism/mocking, is it really that good a thing in the first place? You use that Shallow Hal analogy, but I liken it to that scene in the Matrix where the dude can't stand the harshness of reality and wants to return to the more pleasant, fictional world. I can't stand willful ignorance.
they're exactly the same - irrational belief in something unsupported by objective evidence. you missed that particular point. non-believers HAVE to pretend. they can't just make themselves believe (at least not without extensive self-brainwashing). the point that is more important to your previous post is that if a judging god does exist you have no way of knowing what his requirements for salvation are. for all you know just "living a christian lifestyle" might not fit his requirements. i don't, unless it affects me. the fundamentalist christian agenda in the USA and radical islam are affecting everyone right now. who said it was?
I'm sorry. My geography was off...it was in Massachusetts. http://life.familyeducation.com/sex/teen/36172.html There's also a bill in the Illinois State Senate (and it didn't go through) http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/07/sex-ed-for-kind.html Why is there no place for prayer in a public school? Is prayer something dangerous that instills a fear in others when I pray? How is it different for someone to say that there is no God, and therefore I cannot pray to one? That is a religion unto itself. Do I think there should be ritualized chanting each hour, with compulsory attendance? Not at all. But to tell me I can't pray, but 12 year olds can make out in the hallway? That's shoving atheism down my throat, AND taking away my freedom to express religion. To put it another way...are you going to ban Islamic girl children from wearing their ceremonial clothes, b/c there's "no place for religious observance of any kind in PUBLIC school"? Is that shoving it down their throat? I'll agree not to discuss abortion, for now. Can I talk about homosexual entitlements without being labeled a homophobe? As far as I know (and I'm by no means an expert), there is no difference between me (a heterosexual person) and a homosexual one other than the method by which we have sex. We can like the same books, same music, have similar political views, work the same jobs, drive the same cars, go to the bathroom the same way, etc. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE is in how we have sex. But somehow, the progressive view that there are entitlements that come with that IS being shoved down my throat. If they don't want to marry a member of the opposite sex, fine. To each his own. Want a civil union? Sure, knock yourself out. I don't even have a problem with "civil union-aires" getting the same basic family rights as I have. Marriage is a sacrament of the church, not a synonym for civil union. But MY religious value of what the sanctity of marriage actually is is being twisted into something I don't think it was meant to be, is being flaunted and "shoved down my throat", b/c in the vast majority of places you are labeled a homophobe and shouted down if you don't agree to go along with the entitlement. Another one of my religious values is the sanctity of preserving your body before marriage. I don't have any problems with you if you don't espouse this view...I understand it is a quaint and obtuse belief for most. What I don't support is that I have no control over my tax dollars (going to the same public school that I can't pray in) being required to buy condoms for distribution to children (under the age of consenting adults). The government has deemed that there is a certain "age of consent", under which you're not able to have sex even if you want to, just like you can't join the military even if you want to or buy beer or cigarettes even if you want to. But progressives have taken "freedom" and "liberty" and "entitlement" and "lack of accountability" and decided that it's easier to pass out condoms and show "the joy of sex" videos, and call it "education". If "sex education" is working, why are so many unwanted pregnancies still happening? Why cannot my tax dollars go to trying to get kids to graduate with an ability to become productive members of the workforce or leaders in the home and community, rather than give them a means of enjoying themselves seemingly without care of potential consequence? I would call that "being forced down my throat", since when I complain I am vilified as one "idealistic radical religious" name or another. Am I way off base here?
The Russell one is one that I've read before, and I have some issues with many of the things he says, and would be happy to talk to you offline about it. Without getting too dogmatic (that wasn't the point of the thread), one of the larger cop-outs of those who don't believe that the Bible is inerrant is that they'll say "Jesus wasn't God..although I grant him a very high degree of moral goodness." Look, you can't have it both ways. He was either a great teacher of how to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength; and love your neighbor as yourself; or he was the 1st century equivalent of David Koresh -- a maniacal lunatic who led others astray by claiming falsely omnipotence and Sonship of God. You don't get to have it both ways. I haven't clicked on the others yet. Would alternate views to Russell (like from CS Lewis, for example, or more ancient or modern texts) be helpful to anyone? I don't want to turn this into a forum where I attempt to reason with you to make you Christians or have you make me Buddhist or atheist or something...I respect you all too much to do that. What I ask is that you take a look at how "more established" religious beliefs/practices/modes of worship are being increasingly undermined, while "newer" religious beliefs of Secular Humanism, Darwinism, etc. are championed as being purer and unreligious (and therefore able to be held up as good for everyone), and then ask if that's the direction you want your country to be going. For me, it isn't.
Maybe. What are homosexual entitlements? What has anyone proposed giving gays that heterosexuals don't already have? That is all perfectly reasonable. What entitlements? No one is suggesting that your church should be forced to recognize gay marriage. Nobody is doing anything to your view of marriage. You don't have to pay any attention to the gays at all. You can just ignore them if you like. Why would you want to pray in a school? My, sex ed must have changed a lot since I was in school. It's not an either-or. Schools could in theory do both. Sure are a lot of people being vilified these days. Is sex ed being forced down your throat (no pun intended)? I suspect that you can withdraw your kids from sex ed classes if you want to. [Maybe I'm full of it on that point, I don't have kids myself, so correct me if I'm wrong]. Are you complaining about your kids being exposed to this, or other people's kids being exposed to it? Maybe other people want their kids to have sex ed, and resent you saying they shouldn't? barfo
