Making Space for Ellis?

So I guess the Warriors need to make a move to open up space for Monta Ellis. Who is the one to go?

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wi...1214/how_will_warriors_create_spot_for_monta/

I guess the easiest one to cut would be Demarcus Nelson. But perhaps a last second deal may be out there - like a 2 for 1. Kurz, I don't think will be cut. Hendrix may be cut, but he was actually drafted and has played well in the D-League. I guess Marcus Williams is another option. What do you all see the Warriors doing?

I am excited for Crawford/Monta/Jackson (once his hand recovers) trio. Maggette (and that nasty contract) as a 6th man candidate. AB in the post with whoever Nelson chooses. It should be decent. Ellis' defense may be much needed right now. He is good at causing turnovers, creating fast breaks.

 

Well, we could use an expiring contract to free up some cap space. Maybe we can trade Maggette for Al Harrington?

 

I'm really going to be pissed if they cut Hendrix. He could be something the Warriors haven't had (and desperatey need) in at least years if not decades. Or maybe he isn't much, but I want to find out first before cutting him. Most of those other guys might help you on a few nights, but probably won't make much of a difference to the Warriors' long-term fortunes.

 

I'm already getting pissed, how does one of college's most productive big men wind up in D-league?

F Nelson, fire the ass! He ain't no judge of talent if he's rating his bigs by how much they fulfill the "guard" role. Basketball doesn't work that way. You don't have a good game plan if you can't lock down on D and learn how to slow it up every once in a while. It's like a driver that only knows how to go fast in a straight line rather than making swift, controlled turns. No wonder we crashed a long time ago. Our driver is washed up and in over his head when it comes to our young players.

 

Do you remember Ike Whatshisname that everyone wanted Nelly to play so badly? He ended up being an all-star when he went to Indiana right? Fire Nelson because he hasn't pulled up a guy that's doing above average in the D-League? Custodian, time to put emotions aside. Once Maggette is traded, they'll get back 1 less player than they send off. I wouldn't stress too much. This team is just flat out bad. There's a lot of talent, and Nelly will eventually get them playing together, but I wouldn't stress too much about it. I called it before the year started. I said that they'd do about 10 wins worse than what the Kings did last year. That's where they are as far as maturity (both physical and mental) is concerned. That puts them around 23 wins for the year. Don't blame the coach for putting together a roster this inexperienced. Consider this season 1 long practice.

 

Yeah, I have to agree. I've been on Nellie's case this year but I have never once said "fire Nellie!" That makes no sense. Look at the roster that was put together for him. Even if he did play our bigs more, we'd still be having issues developing them because the team is just so bad right now. Bob and Jim were talking about this during the Nuggets game where Randolph at that point was only given 3 mins of PT. They said you can't just throw a young guy in there for the sake of getting him PT. Garbage time, which this season starts at 3 quarter can sometimes foster bad habits in young players.

 

I know I'm flat out sounding psychotic against Don Nelson. It's because he's destroying my warriors' future. He'd rather play nbdl scrubs and nbdl guards over our draft picks. He doesn't know how to capitalize on this team's investments, especially big men.

I'm saying get rid of Nelson because when has he ever, in the history of his career, developed a good big man. With all these picks Mullin got, there's got to be one good one besides Biedrins. Also, Ike Diogu could have been good if he hadn't been injured constantly. There's a difference between getting all the chances in the world to play and sucking versus not being able to play because of being hurt.

I just can't support a coach that doesn't know how to use his extra pieces and he misuses his big players. If not playing the rookies, why didn't he give Turiaf much burn in the season? The guy was highly effective. The coach has an obvious bias with the way the game is played. His offense-only style completely, flat out ignores balanced defense and any resemblance of disciplined halfcourt execution on offense. Of course I'm mad. This isn't basketball. This isn't even beginning to teach these guys what team basketball is. He'd rather throw in the nbdl all-stars over giving Wright/Belinelli a chance to be stars.

Plus, this whole Sjax at power forward business is nonsense. We're better served if we have two guys trying to compete for offensive rebounds. We don't get back on D in time anyway, so we might as well try to fight for the tons of misses Mags, Buike, Crawford, Sjax are throwing up. Ironically, 1 nbdl and an undrafted guy happening to making more baskets than our vets. So what that means if not only do we have to include those guys in the starting rotation, but 3 other 'big name' vets who can't shoot and have no business playing small forward and a few sizes above.

 

It's funny that you mention developing Bigs. My question to you is how many undersized Bigs make it in the league in their 1st few seasons? Hell, how many decently sized bigs make it in their first few years in the league? Any decent 4 or 5 in the league will just lean on these guys and beat them up. I wish Nelly would give these guys extended minutes just to get people to lay off a little. Sure Randolph is doing well in per/stats, but a guy that thin simply can't do it for full games, especially not every night on a long road trip. They're just not ready yet. So, if I'm a coach, I put them in a position to succeed. Once I see them getting beat up, or developing bad habits, I yank them. Let them live to fight another day.

Look, I hate watching Jax ball hog (Look back at my posts after Baron left, I knew this was gonna happen), and I get frustrated as hell at the black holes that are Magette and Buike. But I'd rather that the guys that have hit their cielings screw up now, in a throw away season, then damage our young talent that have a chance. Look at Marco now, vs last season. He was rail thin, lost on D, constantly nervous. This year he's made a huge leap forward. The Bigs need a few seasons to put some meat on. Plus, Buike gets PT when the team is standing around and settling for jumpers (which happens frequently).

As for not developing Bigs....Um... do you not see the difference in Biedrins' game? I mean, he has him focusing on all of the right things (Including: Strength, Defensive positioning, High post, Passing, Free Throws). Randolph and Wright should follow in Marco and Biedrins' footsteps.

A few flashy trips up the floor on Offense, and a little help side D doesn't mean that Wright earned PT. Go back and watch him box out, play the lanes on tivo. You'll see exactly why Randolph and Buike are in there before him.

In an ideal world, we could play a 12 man rotation. As these guys earn the PT, Nelly will go deeper into the bench.

Simply put, I think everyone's expectations for these guys and this season were just too high.

 

I think you make good points, but a few things.

1) Randolph is 19 and he's getting more PT than Wright and Marco did last year at this point in the season. I have no complaints about how many minutes he's getting right now. Nellie has been pretty generous with him. I think he seems something in him and that's why he's playing him. Like I said, he's 19. He's going to grow A LOT in the next few years.

2) Wright is 21. He will also grow a lot. The thing that frustrates a lot of fans this year is that Nellie said he's going to play him and play him a lot considering he's "NBA ready." That's what's frustrating. Then again, Nellie said he wouldn't play Marco at PG and look what he did last game. Go figure.

3) Marco, when inserted in games, played really well...always. Unless he was given a ridiculous PT like starting the Knicks game but yanked after 4 minutes. But, given that he's been playing really well lately, it must mean Nellie knows what he's doing.

So, I'll take my own frustrations with a grain of salt and be patient. I think one of the main reasons the whole Brandon Wright thing is so frustrating is because we traded J-Rich for him and that he was a #8 pick. That's probably why. But, I feel his time will come in due time.

 

I hear you on the JRich Point. The front office took the direction for future growth, then trade for Wright, let Baron go, resign Beans and Ellis and DON'T re-sign Jax, DON'T trade for Crawford. I like both players, but they don't fit with the strategy.

What the Jax signing and Crawford trade tell me is that the front office and Nelly are on 2 different pages. Rowell thinks that the youth are ready to play and win. I don't think that they are, Nelly obviously doesn't either.

So you either need to get a new front office or change coaches (which is setting that coach up for failure IMO)... Especially when there are no Great coaches out there, and even if there were, you're not going to get one to come with this lineup/cap situation

 

Wright fails on a box out or running the lane? That's a mistake, not like he's dogging it. Nellie is lame for failing to play Wright more. Wright has Bosh like skills (including the defensive failings) but they let Bosh play. Its got to be killing Wright to watch Buike and SJax go a combined 5 for 30.

 

LOL, exactly! You watch Jackson just absolutely take a crap on the hardwood and still get 35 minutes+ at the PF spot!?! And Azibuike guarding Rashard Lewis and Tony Battie? Please, that's just a laugher. Nellie's a brilliant coach overall, but this not playing Wright thing is just absolutely ass-headed, IMO.

 

Okay, so any decent 4's or 5's in the league will lean on our guys and beat them up? So they don't already do that against the wings and undersized forwards we already throw in there? Why not play more of Turiaf and Wright and Randolph? That makes no sense to put a freakin small forward or shooting guard to play power forward and he gets less rebounds than Wright, Randolph or Turiaf would have gotten. But you're right about big men taking a while to reach their peak or compete physically. However, I think Wright has a lot of the elements that Biedrins has like quickness, good feel for the flow of the game. It doesn't really limit them as much being underweight against 90% of the matchups they face. They sure would do better than Mags or Sjax at PF or C. Besides, Biedrins gets outmatched quite a bit against big centers, but yet he plays and he plays with himself and is productive. Wright also plays within himself and he's quite productive when he's not on a team full of selfish ballhogs. He also is a high % guy and doesn't need a set play to be effective. The issue is we put too many high volume scorers out there that don't play any D and we can't get any control in the paint or any close range shots in. How many inside plays could guys like Turiaf, Randolph, and Wright finish that guys on the outside can't complete. I would think a lot because they hustle and get the rebounds. We don't rebound. We're simply too small and not strong enough and not geared toward the role of big man play.

If Nelly had his way, it'd be 4 small guys getting all the touches, with Biedrins getting the scraps. Nelly doesn't like halfcourt, he doesn't like setting the tone inside out, he'd rather go outside in. Simply doesn't work. It's too inconsistent and if you don't control the paint, you don't control the glass nor the high % points except when trying to run the break. Of course in order to run the break, you need to rebound and get good transition scorers/ballhandlers. Nelly has proven he can play only one style of ball and he'd rather go quick and small at the sacrifice of defense, rebounding, and interior scoring. Don't think Nelly has an agenda? Think again, it's his MO for all these years. He wants to pack in perimeter players. His defense is his offense. He wouldn't believe in playing a guy like Amare Stoudamire at PF and he wouldn't believe in giving Turiaf + Biedrins more playing time on the floor together even when our defense has it going. Nope. Nelly is all scoring and he'll use whatever excuse he can to deny more than adequate big men a role in his system.

And Wright not boxing out? C'mon. Like Buike and Randolph do the same? What game are you watching, CH? Wright has been pretty solid so far in the minutes I get to actually see him play. He's been especially good on trying to follow through on the misses. You should see the rest of our guys throw up a bad shot and run back the other way. Two post players ought to give us a few more second chance points to get some shots on goal. Lord, knows we suck at even getting the ball up halfcourt, but blame that on our crappy guard play.

I just don't see any reason for Nelly giving his perimeter players extensive minutes when its our defensive play that keeps us in it. When we have defensive play, meaning bigger players at the 4 and 5, it's usually when we starts playing balanced match-ups (none of this small forward at power forward crap with shooting guards playing small forward). Defense is only part of the equation because the offense we can't really help. No solid playmaker at the 1 other than CJ + no high fg% Ellis. We got Crawford a sub 40% chucker and average playmaker, two power guard ballhogs that lack the Jrich/Paul Pierce factor, an gimped guard-like small forward, and a bunch of solid nbdl guys that won't really helps at positions we need.

I also don't buy Nelly sitting guys because of confidence issues. If he wanted to give them confidence he'd stop calling them out and giving them the Patrick O'Bryant treatment. Nelly is Probably upset at guys like brandan Wright because he can't shoot a 3 or dribble penetrate like a guard, whereas Marco can. The guard always has a chance over a big man in Nelly's rotation. Nelly doesn't believe in bigs other than for getting the scraps the guards leave behind.

 

I agree with that. The only reason I could see for Wright getting the late nod is that he was coming off injury and Turiaf was coming off flu.

But this is Nelly here... He don't work with big men. Even if we had one that developed, he'd find some way to stick a PF at center and leave the center on the bench... Just imagine if Biedrins was Greg Oden or Andrew Bynum. Oden/Bynum would never sniff the floor because he's a different kind of center than Biedrins. You know it's true. Big men make halfcourt teams and majority of halfcourt teams (that can also run) make the playoffs. We never have halfcourt play under Nelson because he doesn't play more than 1 bigs, and he puts in high volume shooting guards rather than unselfish playmakers. He puts all the fire power up front and all the high volume shooters piss away the shots at low %'s. I know Biedrins/Wright Biedrins/Randolph Biedrins/Turiaf ought to be better than combo of Biedrins + some lame small forward who ain't hacking it at PF or some lame sg who ain't hacking it at SF. Lame lame lame. Our defense and rebounding and scoring % has everything to do with who Nelly plays at certain positions. Our 5 guys have to have different roles to bind the team together. Right now it looks like 4 guys who all the play same freaking position.

 

I think CH's point was that because Wright is still so young, Nellie is given a chance to teach him (a lesson) not to create bad habits. Being completely ambitious here, I think this is what Nellie is doing with Wright (as he did with Marco). It's tough love but if he learns to correct his mistakes NOW rather than later, even after he's progressed other aspects of his game, he will become a better all-around player.

You can't argue that the small lineup is better than Wright guarding a real 4, but you can make the argument that Wright is still not quite ready to be taken off the leash. Sure, it might help the team short-term, but it might stunt his development in the long-run to become a really good to maybe great player. Who knows.

 

You got it. Remember guys, that Nelly tried benching Pietrus over and over for not doing the smart things until he realized that he was just too dumb to learn. Physically he was ready to play. So he eventually realized that you're going to have to live with the bad to get the benefits of the good (energy, d, athleticism) These guys are sharp enough to learn, and they're not there physically [at least not for everyday long minutes].

As for playing smaller players like Buike and Mags at the 4, they can outquick people and outsmart bigger players. They both serve a purpose (when they are not jump-shooting). They get to the line and take the ball at the hoop. Like I said earlier, I'd like to see the kids play more, but I'd rather they learn how to play now, in a throw away season and put some more meat on their frames. Honestly, I'd rather that both of these guys never had to see the court again. Eventually, we'll get there.

It's simply a difference in philosophy. Some believe that playing through mistakes is a good way to learn, others think that being disciplined after making mistakes is a better way to make the lesson stick.

 

Also, I don't think it's fair to say that Nelly would rather play 4 smalls. I think if Nelly had a 5 that could pass out of a double team, set screens and fill the lane, he'd put him next to Biedrins and they'd both never leave the court.

BTW... Nelly's been coaching since '76. He's doing something right. He's made it to the playoffs 16 times (not counting the year he resigned in NY where he was on track to make the playoffs). Of those 16 times, he's been eliminated from the 1st round of the playoffs 3 times.

Doubting his ability to bring the best out of players is comical to me. Who would you rather have coaching the team that's out there right now? Honestly. I think you guys need to re-focus your angst at the front office. They're the ones that are screwing things up.

 

The guys I get rid of are Marcus Williams or CJ Watson because the Warriors have got too many guys who can play the combo guard position. Perhaps the Warriors can get a 2nd round pick for CJ. Marcus is garbage, so if we can just get rid of him, I'm good.

As for firing Nelson, I'm against it at this point since the front office is screwed up enough as is. Besides, we just extended him. The answer is to get a real PG who can handle the rock, pass the rock, shoot the rock, and lead this team. Monta is not the answer, so we need to get him in trade.

I'd take a shot at Felton and Crash. I would take a chance on Crash staying healthy. I'd offer Crawford, Mags, and Buke in exchange. Crash gets more rebounds, ASSISTS, steals, and is a better defender than Mags.

PG: Felton, Monta, DMN
SG: Monta, Marco
SF: Jax, Crash, AR
PF: Crash, BW, Hendrix
C: AB, Turiaf, Kurz

 

Who the heck is Crash? I'm stumped on that one.