In 2002-2003 Stern told the refs to call more perimeter FTs didn't he? Then he reemphasized this in the 04-05 season IIRC.
Well, the NBA definitely changed how players were allowed to play perimeter defense in order to increase scoring. And I would agree that made a difference in players ability to score. It made it easier. Jordan played in the Pat Riley sludge era. Slow, plodding, hacking every one, boring as shit basketball. But Jordan overcame, and did what he does. Obviously Jordan is still the best of all time, but if you could combine Jordan and Magic for an entire career's worth of stats, I might have to lean that way for all time greatness (LeBron). I believe Magic is the 2nd best player of all time, for the simple reason that he did it all, and won rings in the process. He's a close #2 to Jordan, IMO. LeBron has the tools to be the best "all around" player, AND win rings in the process. I'll have a hard time not giving him the crown if he pulls it off.
Nice summary at the beginning there, thanks. Jordan has had a season of 33/8/8, so this Hybrid "Jordan-Magic" type of player that you alluded to already existed before. Jordan is just so damn effective at getting to the rack in spite of the less favorable era, he just won't be overcome empirically to me.
I don't know what you're specifically referring to here, but no one in the history of the game benefited from more phantom and superstar calls then MJ. The refs treated him as if he was their boss. Are you really contending otherwise? STOMP
Ok. That's fair. Let me pull up some numbers to see if my eyes match historical reality. Because my eyes are telling me a lot about LeBron this season. Jordan career avg: 30.1 pts, 6.2 rbs, 5.3 ast LeBron career avg: 27.4 pts, 6.9 rbs, 6.6 ast Ok. LeBron is in his 6th season. Jordan's 6th season avg: 33.6 pts, 6.9 rbs, 6.3 ast. LeBron's 6th season (this season) avg: 28 pts, 7.4 rbs, 6.9 ast. Interesting. Extremely close. Good to know. Perhaps I've been removed from the Jordan era for so long, I have forgotten how amazing he was (I'm 33 and was part of the entire era). It's just that what I've seen from LeBron this season is so physically dominating, which Jordan really wasn't, he was just better. LeBron is playing in an era full of freaks of nature. 7 foot players at the SF with handles, for example. The athletes are better now, yet LeBron manages to seem so much bigger and stronger than every one. Let's just say this - I'm pretty excited to see LeBron hit his ceiling. It should be extremely special.
I didn't say it was the end-all and be-all. But I think it's better support for an opinion than "I'd always give Jordan the edge." Jordan didn't play with the same hand-checking rules, but he also played against looser defenses in his early prime, which is when he was most productive. The much-celebrated "Jordan rules" that the Pistons played against him was uncommon. In the mid-'90s, that form of physical, punishing defense of slashers became more and more prevalent and now it's the standard defense. So, the era advantages aren't just in James' favour.
I don't see how the 80's isn't just as good, that is arguably the best era of basketball as far as a collection of talent is concerned. Well thankfully Jordan blows away LeBron in True Shooting Percentage, Field Goal percentage, FT%, whatever you want to use. LeBron is on a different tier when it comes to scoring, he'll never have a better individual season and we have yet to see where his "PER" ends up this season. It is sad Jordan's empirical dominance is forgotten to some, he really has no equal.
LeBron gets just as many phantom calls, in a perimeter-oriented era. Don't really know what your point was in bringing that up, it's not even like I made a hyperbole for you to laugh at. Well if you want to go by just PER, it has indeed increased for Wing players at a larger rate compared to other positions, since 02-03. And it isn't even an exact formula because Assisted % buckets for example, is estimated for every player. You have to be careful with that. I never said my verbal flourish was the end all either, but you cite PER way too much Minstrel; I was referring to various threads.
Collection of talent? Maybe. Athletic ability? No. Today's NBA, top to bottom, is much, much more athletic than the 80's. Not to say today's NBA is smarter, because I don't believe they are, but they are definitely more athletic. In any case......I'm not in this thread to tear Jordan off the throne in which he so completely deserves. I'm here to say that since Jordan, LeBron has impressed me the most, and he's still young, and he still will do some extremely special things when all is said and done.
Oh fair point. Even though LeBron is not my favorite player in the game today, he has so far been more consistent than anyone else this season, and deserves praise.
I use PER as a form of statistical evidence. I also use other forms of support, like reasoning and observation. I don't think I use PER too much or in an unreasonable fashion. It's one of the better publicly available measures of player value, thus it is worth looking at. I have never held it up as proof.
PER is normally lower for Power Forwards and Centers, and increased for Point Guards and other wing players when you recalculate it more exactly (say by a plus/minus differential of 1-3). Just thought that was interesting to mention. :] This makes sense since PER is purely an offensive formula.
We have yet to see where his "PER" ends up this season??? Gee thanks captain obvious... I guess thats why they play the games don't they huh? I'm 41 and was raised in NC... I've been a hoops junkie my whole life and have seen hundreds of Mike's career from his frosh year on. Should I pity you for having a different empirical data gathering experience then me? What if I wanted to judge players by how many assists they accumulate rather then FT%? You did say that would be okay right? Your argument boils down to MJ is better because you say so and anyone who says otherwise is wrong just because. If we all use your method of valuing our personal opinion as the end all, then of course some really big fan of Wade can claim he's easily the best ever just because. STOMP
Not everyone knows about PER's fluctuating nature this season in relation to Bron. It certainly has spiraled down over the last few weeks before tonight's big game. Hopefully I've clarified. I never stated this. I have no idea what you're talking about, I don't know where I said I don't respect other people's opinions or that I am the end all. I clearly took some time to retort certain points and was respectful I think. You need to loosen up dude.
Well, PER incorporates all statistical production, but largely rebounding, play-making and scoring. Defense isn't meaningfully accounted for. Power forwards and centers are slightly lower because it's harder to find bigger players who are also good. That's why great big men are considered more valuable than great guards/swing men, by and large. It's a facet of the game, not an issue in PER.
they are bigger stronger & faster. Training techniques from diet to weights and all sorts of trainers and specialists have pushed the game to another level of what it takes to keep up. The 80's were when Bballers started lifting weights... things have evolved. The 80's had some of the truly great individual talents in the history of the game, but I think the overall level of physical fitness today makes the current game at least as good... thats true of most sports. STOMP
don't all stats tend to go up and down during the course of a season? Here's guessing LBJ's PER stopped spiraling down tonight. no, you just dismissed any dissenting opinion as "sad" and accused those people of being forgetful. Is that respecting the opinions of others? you need to read what you wrote before you post it STOMP
Yes....and the fact that there no longer seems to be an "off season" for today's professional athletes like their was in the 80's. I think Jordan changed every thing, to be honest. Here's a guy that worked tirelessly, during the season, during the off season, to be the best. He really elevated what it took to be the best, and I think athletes from every sport took heed, especially guys like Tiger, Kobe and LeBron. A new level of commitment has been established. If an athlete is not ready to commit to that level, then they will likely not be "great."
Well not all at the same rate? I thought it was worthy enough to mention no need to bust my balls over that though. Such drama over little things. I am well aware of your age, it has been mentioned before to me by another mod. Well I guess if you're paranoid enough to think I was typing about you in a retort addressing someone else's post, go ahead. That isn't the case. I'm sure there are various people now that are fuzzy on the details back then, or do you want to argue that as well? Hah well point out to me exactly where I said this: "Your argument boils down to MJ is better because you say so and anyone who says otherwise is wrong just because." Totally false really, you're just pissed and moody.
