Fluctuating weekly MVP discussion.

Re: Wade new #2

You're actually using the 81 point game to justify your position? You must be desperate.

Or maybe its one of the reasons I already stated: Miami wasn't empty at point guard, or Wade's shoulder killed Smush's potential use (shooter).

Payton is the only one you have an argument for there. Walker was forced out the league, because he sucks. Ditto for Williams, neither of them are old enough to be retiring. But they started sucking, so they didn't have much of a choice.

Really? Bosh doesn't generate open looks?

So it was his attitude.

Well jeepers, who gives a fuck. You already said yourself that the reason this wasn't done in Orlando was Cook had a bad attitude and was in awful shape, so we know him shitting the bed in Orlando wasn't talent related.

As long as you realize that Boris Diaw, Brian Grant, and James Jones were the people that were defending him.

 

Re: Wade new #2

I asked you how the hell they have similar options after you just said they "had similar options". You obviously didn't get my point, and lacked diction.

Kobe doesn't make his talent any better? What does that have to do with the fact that we still had less talent than them and even the Heat this year?

Well you've conceded then, because why then don't the Heat win 54 games? You've completely been caught as a hypocrite, it has nothing to do with a distaste for Wade because I don't like LeBron. Face it, no one here knows that the hell you're trying to say.

Ok so breakdown the roster player by player, you can't. You've already admitted that they had a better center who creates for himself, and Marion. Nash has nothing to do with that.

You ignore my ultimate point, which I have already addressed, depth. They've got better players at every position, players that have produced without Nash.

What is there not to get?

Nope I could care less about LeBron, you've got nothing here.

Mihm and Brown are nothing to brag about, they're not as effective offensively as Marion or Haslem.

Yes per minute they were at least as effective, I'd say more.

The MVP is a regular season award, who cares?

The only one whining here is you, 13 and 6 over seven games is impressive? Kobe wasn't making his teammates better in the playoffs? Pointless to bring up, he can't stay consistent to save his life. Look at all our failures eating bench or sleeping on the street now.

No it isn't fairly obvious, Wade is not as tough as Bron, sorry. Missing 62 games in two years in your Prime isn't an accident, he can't handle the pounding as good as Bron.

Ok so you want to put LeBron in Wade's shoes, but you want to ignore that Kobe plays in the West? You're not on today man.

How did I embarrass myself? I don't like either one of these guys.

Why should Wade be on a level playing field with Bron if D has proven to be more fragile? I've struck a nerve with you.

Now you're making some progress.

I edited that part before you posted this retort.

Bron is a much more impressive MVP contender.

Uh did you forget ALREADY how many questions you asked me at the end of your last retort?

Don't know what is so hard to understand, Nash is a weak MVP candidate to me, James isn't.

 

Re: Wade new #2

I think once you went back to the intangible argument with Nash, you got desperate.

Smush is also very inconsistent. He had proven nothing before, I wasn't surprised he's gone; he came out of nowhere.

And he sucks at defending, putting the ball on the floor, and rebounding?

That wasn't the only issue.

Uh, destroying your own point? Cool I guess.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Actually, try reading my entire post next time, not just parts of it.

No it wasn't, if Smush was so good to put up 12 ppg, at his age, he'd still be in the league by now. Especially if he is supposedly as good of a shooter as you say he is. But he's not. Thus your point fails.

Yet the season before Williams came to Miami, he averaged 10 ppg, 6 assists.

The season with Miami, he averaged 12 ppg, 5 assists. Not much of a difference, I can say the same for Kobe.

The season before Miami, Walker averaged 16 ppg, and 8 boards. The season with Miami, he averaged 12 ppgs, and 5 boards. Hm... seems like he didn't get better at all. In fact, his FG% dropped as well.

As much as Shaq? No.

As a matter of fact, Kapono's production didn't even drop that much the season after he left Miami. Check his stats if you don't believe me.

So you're saying a guy who shoots 51% one season, and 45% next season, goes to Orlando and then shoots 39% isn't a drop off? I could care less about his attitude, or how fat he is. Kobe dealt with the same crap attitude and his lazy effort and made him into a solid rotational player.

So basically you're saying Kwame is a super scrub?

Here's your post:

"Haslem is average size for a power forward. The fact that he started at center shows that the Heat in fact did not have any options at center."

huevon's post:

"And the Lakers did? "

your post:

"Did they ever resort to starting a power forward who barely makes size at his natural position? Kwame didn't have a bad postseason by the way, 13 and 6. So not sure what the fuss about WE DIDINT HAF MIM! is for."

Seems like a moot point to me. I'd rather have a guy who is undersized who actually has basketball skills rather than going out to China to sign some random 7 foot "next Yao Ming" center to man the paint for me.

Still doesn't take away from the fact that Kwame was our starter, and now he can barely get his ass off the bench in Detroit.

 

Kobe's problem back then was that people perceived Lamar Odom as an allstar caliber, which he clearly was not. Also, Kobe had the rape cloud over him still, and he was redeeming himself that year. He probably, in the voters mind, had to redeem himself before being considered for the MVP. Regardless, Wade's team is just as bad as Kobe's was back then, if not worse.

I think logically thinking through this, Lebron should be the MVP based on traditional reasoning. He is on arguably the best team in the league, he's the best player on that team, has great stats, and his teammates are less talented than Kobe's. Using traditional reasoning, Kobe would be the runner up.

But Wade is one for the dramatics. He says he should be in the MVP discussion, and then goes on to get 48 points in a shootout with Ben Gordon, that he not only tied the game with a three pointer, but then won it with a floating three pointer, and then came back for 50 points in a 3OT win. Wade has played the dramatics well to enter himself into the discussion.

 

I have no problem considering both Kobe and Wade as MVP candidates, but his team is not worse. He's done well recently, though LeBron has earned it more this season. I want to crush them all regardless.

 

no way in hell that is true.

 

^LOL so many quotations

 

Post padder! :O

:]

 

Re: Wade new #2

They did have similar options. One player did a lot more with them than the other player did.

Hair-splitting FTL. Kobe doesn't make players around him better as much as Nash and Wade do.

Because Wade can't make big men better defenders and rebounders. Miami is 26th in the NBA in rebounding, and 22nd in opponent's rebounding. Rebounding, studies have shown, is a factor in how much success an NBA team sees. The Lakers are 1st, Cleveland is 13th, and those teams are having more success. Why? Because they have competent big men.

A better center who creates for himself? Who would that be?

Oh come to think of it, how good has Marion been since he left Phoenix (and Nash)? Exactly.

Tim Thomas - a ghost since leaving Phoenix
James Jones - scoring has slipped
Bell/Diaw - doing well in Charlotte statistically; however, they are two of the four best players on that team. That isn't a good thing. The Bobcats suck.
Eddie House - his best season easily
Barbosa - didn't even play in Phoenix before the Nash era


Nash made a fair bit of those players.

How LeBron can be a 'better MVP winner' than Nash, as if such a thing exists.

You responded to something that had nothing to do with LeBron.

MARION AND HASLEM AREN'T FUCKING CENTERS!!!

Yet Odom, according to you, really wasn't all that effective.

You started yapping about how you were missing Chris Mihm for the playoffs, yet Brown played better in the playoffs than Mihm did in the regular season. What does it have to do with anything? I don't know, I didn't initially bring it up.

'Wades shoulder injury was his own fault he shouldn't have been driving to the paint the fact that he got injured shows a lack of toughness and LeBron would never allow that to happen to himself. LeBron would have done a better job in Miami because he wouldn't have been injured and Wade was injured and I dont want to look at things from a level perspective because that diminishes my argument kthxbai'

Un-fucking-believable. Those 62 games were missed to the same injury that Wade had attempted to play with, you know. That's a serious but solitary shoulder injury, not a sign of weakness or not being able to handle the pounding.

The fact that you keep dodging the injury question with 'but it doesn't matter, LaBwon wouldnt get injured' shows that you don't have jack in this argument.

You keep bragging about how LeBron would have made the Heat a much better team. If LeBron is healthy, no fucking shit he would. The only accurate to judge if LeBron would have done that much better than Wade.

Hilarious. Disregarding the one kryptonite to your own argument by saying 'well it wouldnt have happened anyway so it doesnt matter and did happen to wade so hes fragile'.

Holding injury against Wade's MVP candidacy = epic fail.

Whatever that's supposed to mean.

You seem to think that LeBron should win simply because he's the best player. Maybe you need a refresher course on the acronym 'MVP', and what it does and doesn't mean.

It doesn't matter if Nash was a 'weak candidate' to you, Nash won, and rightfully so. He did a better job with the parts he was given than Kobe did. It really is that simple.

 

Re: Wade new #2

lol ok

Very good, because LA had nothing at point guard.

He always did. What's your point?

Oh really. How?

 

Re: Wade new #2

You have still failed to give any reason as to how Wade makes his teammates better than Kobe.

As for Nash, that is a moot point. Steve Nash is the point guard, his job is to make his teammates better. He isn't supposed to go out and average 35 a night like Kobe.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Don't use single game performances in an MVP discussion if you don't want to look stupid.

Are you blind or stupid? I just said that Smush played with the Lakers because they had nothing at point guard. No team today is as thin and bad at point guard as the Lakers were back then.

And with Miami, those points went up (assists went down because Wade controlled the ball more).


Oh, sorry, did you have a point?

And where has Walker been since? He was sharply on the decline when Miami acquired him, and him having those options around him

Way ahead of you. His stats didn't drop that much, but consider that Kapono went from being an 8th man to the primary shooter at the 2 and 3. In other words, his production decreased while his role increased.

HE WAS OUT OF FUCKING SHAPE, YOU EVEN FUCKING SAID IT.

I could care less about his attitude, or how fat he is. Kobe dealt with the same crap attitude and his lazy effort and made him into a solid rotational player.[/QUOTE]

Or maybe Cook developed the crap attitude over time, and that's why he was traded? Players don't always enter the league as bad eggs, that attitude often develops over time as they (think they) secure a spot in the league and lose their work ethic. Its not all that rare, actually.

More senseless bullshit, great. Kwame's numbers were originally bought up because huevon was talking about the Lakers not having Mihm in the 06 playoffs, so I showed him that Mihm wasn't exactly missed, and therefore debunked that arguement. Relatively simple.

As for the center arguement, if a 6-8 players is starting at center for you, you have problems. I don't give a shit about his basketball skills or heart, he's still at a sore disadvantage against any half-decent center who actually makes decent height. Its common sense.

Yes he was, and he did a fair job, even though he was being defended by small forwards.

 

Re: Wade new #2

So Marion is a lot better than Odom according to you, they're deeper, but we had similar options? They won 9 more games with a superior roster.

Hair splitting loss yet Kobe wins 45 games himself in the West? Nah I don't think so brah.

BS, you give Nash all the credit for winning 54 games then? The Lakers SHOULD have won 54 games with a more anemic roster but the Heat don't? Sounds like Bull dude. They have better perimeter players all over Miami, and more talented bigs.

Oh so Nash created Diaw's 6 assists per game as well?

He was an All-Star without Nash, try again.

Bell Diaw are just fine without Nash, you said it yourself. Barbosa plays better without Nash, for years in fact. He comes off the Bench and has been equally as productive.

Kobe made a fair bit of his players...

Because Nash is much more a system Point Guard? He wasn't as elite in Dallas was he? He's not a Superstar either.

You're saying I'm a fanboy, it was completely relevant.

God you're ALWAYS pissed in these little debates, Blazer forum or not. Dude relax, I don't want to have to edit you.

Mihm and Brown aren't good options either, what is your point? They're not as talented offensively, it is worthless to continue to bring up.

Yep, Odom wasn't.

You keep talking about our centers compared to their centers. I made an observation, you made a pointless one about a seven game stretch.

What am I dodging? Wade is a scrawnier player who insists on slashing and taking a beating. I don't see what the hell I'm missing?

You keep bragging about how poorly the Heat played last year, maybe if Wade wasn't made of glass they wouldn't suck as much? You're looking at it one sided.

No it is quite relevant because people bring up, how his team won "15" games. I give context to the reasons why. They Heat sucked because Wade sucked last season, because he hadn't gotten over a HORRIFIC injury that LeBron has never had to suffer in his life from. Saying they are a "15 win" team is misleading from a talent perspective and the new additions they've made.

You're using the injury as a prop for his MVP canidacy, you're doing exactly what you're accusing me of, trying to use the injury as some sort of part in THIS year's MVP race.

Oh I'm sorry, Nash is a better player? How do you not understand that statement? You break down the most obvious stuff sometimes.

Well I'm sorry if LeBron pisses you off, have you even proved Wade is a better individual player than Bron, or carried his team more? Nope. You just penalize LeBron for being in more meaningful games if anything, his personal production is just as impressive. You're only basing Wade's candidacy off of stats, refresh yourself on your own positions.

You're giving Nash credit for intangibles then, because his roster is more loaded. Whereas LeBron has proven he can dominate even on a crappy team, Nash lacks these qualities.

So by this barometer, why shouldn't Bron win the MVP this year? Since he's "magically" won 65 games? To me you can say Wade is the MVP, but it makes no sense not to also give Kobe the award. Throughout this discussion you've admitted Marion is much better than Odom, the Heat have a "slightly better" roster than us, and that Nash is not better than LeBron. So how should Nash be given credit for 54 wins, but Bron not given credit for 60-whatever wins?

Nash has the intangibles, but Bron or Kobe don't? You've seen both rosters, essentially you're saying Kobe has no excuse for NOT winning 54 games, poor roster or not. Thus Michael Jordan should also be penalized for not winning 54 games early on in his career? But Wade should not be held to the same standard? I'm trying to understand your messed up logic but it really makes no sense.

 

Re: Wade new #2

I have? Are you sure I haven't just failed to tell you what you want to hear?

I've bought up the fact that Wade does more with what he's given than Kobe does with what he's given. Whether you choose to recognize that or not is your decision.

So now you're segregating by position, and using the 'HEEZ A POYNT GARD' excuse to help Kobe's case? Go to sleep.

 

Re: Wade new #2

How, Kobe won 45 games in the West with the worst roster discussed in this entire debate.

I guess him discussing every other position on our roster was also part of my imagination?

 

Re: Wade new #2

And I didn't. I backed it up with other points, not my fault you decided to pick and choose which one to respond to.

No need to get up over your head and start calling me blind and stupid.

Smush Parker played for the Lakers because we had nothing at point. No team today is as thin and bad at point guard as the Lakers were back then. Thus, you have admitted, yourself, that Smush Parker is a horrible basketball player, and that he sucks. Yet he averaged 12 ppg in his two seasons as a Laker, when before that, he couldn't even make an NBA team. After the Lakers, he's playing overseas.

Point is, his production didn't increase that much. Not to mention he averaged 4 minutes more in Miami. And no, J-Will was never a super scrub in his career like a Smush Parker, or Kwame Brown, or Brian Cook. If you're talking about 2 ppg as a means of Wade making his teammates so much better, I can do the same for pretty much all the scrubs on the Lakers roster at the time.

Your point?

And your point?

You're the one who brought up Walker as somebody who Wade helped improve, not me. I pointed out that statistically wise, he declined ever since coming to Miami. So what is it? Did Wade help improve his game, or was he just on a natural decline like you said he was? Why did you bring up his name in the first place if he didn't get better in Miami.

So in other words, he is a shooter who is playing a bigger role for his team. So in other words, he is the primary shooter at the 2 or 3. So in other words, teams focus more on him and key up on him defensively, yet he has still put up relatively similar numbers, on same %.

Your point?

Well then you obviously don't know what you are talking about. Cook always had a bad attitude, ever since his rookie year. There's a reason why he always moped around the court, never gave any effort, continued to pack on pounds ever since entering the league. His stints with Orlando and Houston are no different than his stint with LA.

Really? Mihm wasn't missed? A healthy Chris Mihm was one of the most consistent players on the roster. Yes he was missed, because if the guys going up against Kwame Brown, who had no offense touch what-so-ever (I'd like to hear you try to debunk this) was able to put up respectable numbers, than Mihm, who actually has something that resembled an offensive game, would've helped a lot more.

It's common sense that Kwame is a bust, a scrub as well. Thus he sucks, which pretty much everybody knows, yet he was able to put up respectable numbers in LA, because Kobe made him better.

Let's see, from averaging 28 minutes a game, to 14, notable drop off in difference. Obviously the guy is nowhere near a starter in this league, yet Kobe helped make him look, at least somewhat respectable, and even made the playoffs in a stacked western conference with this bum manning the paint, along with a point guard who can no longer make it in the league.

 

Re: Wade new #2

No you haven't. I broke down the Lakers roster in 05-06, and it had considerable less talent than the roster Wade has to work with.

Well yeah, it's common sense. The job of a point guard is to make his teammates better. No need to throw in sarcasm, I actually thought pretty much every "basketball fan" knew this fact.

Just like the job of a point guard isn't to go out and average 35 ppg, like Kobe did.

 

I don't get it, so what's the definition of MVP then? I always thought it was supposed to be the best player award, or the best player on a top team award (seems that way). So what's your definition JE? The person who makes his teammates the best award? The most important player on a team award? In that case, it's Kobe. Because a team of Amare and Marion, along with guys like Diaw and Bell can still compete, whereas a team of Lamar Odom and Smush Parker, along with Kwame Brown and Brian Cook lands you the worst record in the league.

 

Nash gets the credit for 54 wins, Bron doesn't get credit for all his wins, according to JE. It makes no sense.

The Heat have a "slightly better" roster but they shouldn't be held to the 54 win standard Kobe's roster should be held to.

Does anyone reading that understand his point? Just admit Nash isn't really a great MVP selection man.