Fluctuating weekly MVP discussion.

If that is the case then all of MJ's MVPs are a joke, I guess.

The season before MJ's first retirement, the Bulls won 57 games. The season without MJ, the Bulls won 55. A WHOPPING 2 game count!!! OMG!!!! Yeah, Jordan sure as hell made his teammates a lot better right? I guess he's overrated then because of all the talent he had to work with (coming from your POV) since he never made anyone better. They all performed at similar levels when he left! OMGZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!

 

Jordan's championship teams were playoff contenders without him, and when he was destroying the East early on he could barely get to 45 wins without Pippen.

That's why the MVP should always be the best player, instead of "most valuable" one year if you don't like the Lakers, and "best stats" another year.

 

Everyone I know knows that Nash did not deserve 2 MVPs. I think there was even a thread a while back on JBB to back up my evidence. Not our fault he lets his blind hatred of the Lakers and Kobe to cloud his judgment.

 

If you want to go by Wins, then be consistent. Nash + Bron.

 

Players should be punished for playing in the West, I guess.

Hey, it's Kobe's fault he played in the West during the 05-06 season, he should've demanded the Lakers move East! That way, the Lakers would be a top 5 seed, and Kobe could've won MVP!!!

Wade is a lucky duck I guess, for playing in the East. His team gets the 4th (or 5th seed), whereas if he plays in the West, they wouldn't even be in the playoffs!!!

Sure sounds reasonable to me. Punish players for playing in the West.

So now you're segregating by location.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Have you or have you not kept tabs on Marion since he left Phoenix? Odom, if he and Marion played for the opposite teams, would have been even better than Marion was.

They won 9 more games with comparable players to that of the Lakers. Thing is, you seemed to be fooled by the fact that Nash makes these guys look a lot better than they really are.

Yup.

So now you discount the rebounding statistic and the fact that Wade has little to no control over the fact that his bigs can't rebound or defend up to par? You are in severe denial.

No he did not.

All three of these players play (or played in Marion's case) for shitty teams. On shitty teams with few options, someone has to get the numbers. This is the NBA, almost any rotation player is good enough to do that on a team with no other options. Thing is, a team can't win with these guys filling prominent roles.

Nash made more.

Fail.

It doesn't matter what kind of point guard Nash was, he made average players into good players, and good players into great players. What do you want? He did it better than anyone, which is why he has two well deserved MVPs. It also doesn't matter that he isn't a superstar, stop clouding 'MVP' with 'MOP'.

I haven't done anything edit worthy.

So by your reasoning, it would be fine to start Glen Davis, Brandon Bass, Chuck Hayes, Nick Collison, or the old-day Kenny Thomas at center.

I hope that makes you see the huge error in your thinking.

Good!


Now make the connection. You're almost there.

That pointless observation debunked your sky-is-falling complaint about not having Mihm.

You're essentially faulting him for it, saying that because of this style, he doesn't qualify as a legit MVP candidate. You fail to acknowledge or consider how LeBron would have done under the same circumstances.

Wade is made of glass???! IT WAS ONE FUCKING INJURY. Those games he missed, that was all due to the same injury you know.

So LeBron never suffered that injury, never will, and therefore he is better and a much more legitamite MVP candidate. Got it.

Uh, no. You used his injury and his team's subsequent suckitude last season as a reason not to give him the award.

Completely meaningless. It doesn't matter if Nash isn't the better player, that doesn't affect the honorability of his MVP awards.

More proof that, from your angle, the line between 'MVP' and 'MOP' is horribly smudged.

So LeBron is the better player. But that doesn't mean he is the more worthy MVP candidate.

Because Nash drove his team to essentially the same results in 2006 as did in 2005, despite losing 2 of other the 4 players in his starting five from the 05 season. When Amare went out, the Suns lost 26 points per game. With Joe Johnson leaving, the Suns lost 17 a game and nearly 50% shooting from three. With Q leaving, the Suns lost 14 ppg, and 225 three-pointers made. For those three losses, they had Kurt Thomas and Boris Diaw as replacements, along with Raja Bell. Obviously, that's a huge dropoff in talent, production, everything that the 05 players bought you. Nash takes these spare parts and leads them to a season very comparable to that of 04-05, where they won 62 games and went to the WCF. In 06 they won eight less games and got the WCF again, with much, much less firepower. That is why Nash won the MVP award, and deserved it.

LeBron is the best player in the league, and he plays on the best team. As much as you want that to automatically equal MVP, it doesn't, because Wade does a lot more for his team than LeBron does for his. Without LeBron, the Cavs are fighting for the eighth spot. Without Wade, the Heat are roommates with Washington.

Strawman. Nash drove the Suns to exceed all expectations coming into the season. Phoenix shouldn't have won that many games, but they did. Its not a 'Kobe didn't', its a 'Nash did'.

You continue to miss the point. Nash doesn't get that award for 'winning' 54 games, he gets that award for keeping his team at a 54 win level after 3/5 of the team's starting lineup is gone, they lose nearly 70 ppg with those players, and small time rotation players are bought in as replacements.

 

Shawn Marion couldn't play basketball before Steve Nash, Raja Bell was not a good player in Utah, Bell/Diaw suck in Charlotte, and Barbosa was terrible coming off the bench for the Suns. :[

 

So this excludes Nash from being a legitamite MVP? lol

No, that's just the precedent that the MVP voters set up for themselves. And now they have to live up to it every year because they don't want to contradict past selections and open up that can of worms.

Do you honestly think Dirk deserved the MVP in 2007?

The player who, if you take them away from that team, that teams suffers the most.


And no, a team of Amare, Marion, Bell, and Diaw doesn't compete for anything but a top 5 pick.

 

No, I just don't think he should've won the MVP. In that case, MJ's MVPs were frauds, since he obviously didn't make his teammates that much better.

I think the MVP should be awarded to the best player in the league. In that case, Kobe in 05-06.

So the Lakers, and Kobe.

A team of Marbury - Amare - Marion made the playoffs with a 44-38 record. So no, they wouldn't be competing for a top 5 pick, probably wouldn't make the playoffs, but nowhere will they be as bad as the Lakers without Kobe.

You honestly think a team with Lamar Odom as the #1 option, backed up with guys like Smush, Cook, Kwame, and George would be better off than the Suns? Laughable. They would be much worse, maybe go down as the worst team in NBA history. Talent wise, they would certainly be up there. The only that that may save them may be coach Phil Jackson. But even then, the Lakers would probably be the worst team in the league.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Sorry to tell you this dude, But Marion was already a shell of himself in Phoenix by the 07-08 season. I wonder if you remember reading that?

How are our rosters comparable? Again you refuse to explain yourself there.

They also have a PG, SF, PF, and more offensively capable centers. Odom has a mediocre rebound rate, focusing on that is pretty silly.

Dude, you lost. You already said their roster is a bit better than us "negligible" but comparable. And now you're saying they shouldn't have to win 54 games, but the 06 Lakers should.

Of course he didn't, Diaw is a much better option than what we had.

Marion's numbers look identical on a winning and losing team. He's an All-Star talent and the best defender by far on Phoenix.

How if you've admitted that the Heat have a slightly better roster? Dude you can't even recall what you said a few posts ago, you've jumped the shark on this one.

Playing in a fast paced offense with a bunch of shooters who don't play defense had nothing to do with it?

MVP is a pretty boring award then, if I were to buy your case.

You're on the edge by attacking Lost One and his "intelligence". Just chill and there'll be no problem.

Them or Chris Mihm? It is a wash certainly. I didn't know We had Pau Gasol in 2006.

Yes, it isn't easy to surpass our sad roster, you've almost got it!

What point did you debunk?

No I'm saying you are misleading everyone whenever you say the Heat were a "15" win team. They were at that level because Wade was barely a Superstar anymore, due to said injury. You can make him into an MVP candidate but your defense of Nash is hypocritical.

He also missed games in his first few years in the league, he's only been in the NBA 6 years and has missed 95 games, including 51 more where he was ineffective due to a lingering injury.

Actually no it isn't one injury, he suffered an injury in 06-07, got pulled off in a wheelchair, then sucked for every game he played in the next year and missed 31 additional games (plus the playoffs if a miracle happened in the weak East).

Yep he hasn't.

Nope, I was saying you're being overzealous about the Heat's situation without Wade, a big difference. If Bron played for the Heat he would never be in Wade's position.

It is meaningful in this discussion because you change the criteria constantly. Wins! No stats! No wait I don't like the Lakers, make it Wins!

This coming from a person defending Nash but not Bron?

Why because the Cavs will win less games this season? I thought it was about making your teammates better in a fashion that will result in wins? Guess not if you hold some petty grudge.

Um no he didn't, he drew better seeding than the Mavericks because they won their division and played the Clippers in the second round, instead of getting knocked out by the Spurs/Mavs in the second round that year.

Their team was not as good, Nash is not a Superstar, he's only been an MVP in certain systems.

Wade's clearly not more valuable, you even said it already. You just contradicted yourself terribly but you have no memory of what you just wrote.

Again you've already concluded that the Heat have a "slightly better" roster than the Lakers but are on pace to win the SAME amount of games. You lost man, sorry.

Yeah they were supposed to play worse, but not worse than the Lakers. No one ever said that season the Lakers would surpass them.

Yes, Wade "didn't either", Jordan "didn't either". What a double standard, accept your hastily written defense doesn't make sense back in 06.

 

Amazing what a little bit of thinking can show you.

 

Let's go over this slowly JE, Wade's team is better than Kobe's team ( even just slightly according to your own words).

Lakers SHOULD have won 54 in order to get an MVP, Miami SHOULD NOT, even though they're slightly better.

Anyone reading this will realize the kind of corner you've backed yourself into. It is a a double standard, and of course LeBron is a better MVP candidate than Nash too.

 

Same back to you.

I'm just using your logic, not my fault it fails.

"The player who, if you take them away from that team, that teams suffers the most. "

There ya go. Take MJ off the Bulls, the teams loses two games more. Take Karl Malone off of the Jazz, I'm sure they may not even make the playoffs. Thus, the MVP should be awarded to Karl Malone, of the Utah Jazz. Since obviously MJ's team didn't suffer at all with him out the lineup, 2 games? Yeah, real suffering

Clear up your logic. Not my fault it falls short.

 

That just exposes the joke criteria if anything.

 

Kobe's black.

 

OOoo, nice. :]

That's exactly his position.

 

Even if the Heat never lose again this entire season, they won't win 54 games.

 

Just say Wade and Kobe should be MVP, it will all make sense then. We all make mistakes dude, nothing wrong with admitting you didn't realize the Phoenix "tangent" exposed how you don't care about Wins when it comes to the Heat.

 

never. He shall defend it to the death.

[video=youtube;UnitdUvWx8k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnitdUvWx8k&feature=related[/video]

 

RoPete says Kobe's greatness hinders his chances for the MVP WTF???

http://my.nba.com/thread.jspa?threadID=5800022190