So, we're supposed to listen to talking points from our Congresspeople without comment? Seriously, you'd be happier if you learned Spanish and moved to Venezuela. Those people work for us. We not only have the right, but the obligation to speak our minds when we think they're wrong. I'd imagine you support Act Up!. What the difference between their methods and booing a congressperson who is trying to push a party line at the expense of the truth?
C'mon, you're smarter than this. Speaker Pelosi--in referencing swastikas--was clearly intimating that those who were against President Obama and the House heath care bill were supporters of National Socialism. Basically she was calling them Nazis. The opposite--as shown by your mediamatters.org link--is proven. It's the fear of Fascism that brings these people out, not the support of it.
I don't have dates and times for you, of course. A great deal of one's knowledge of such things comes from memories of seeing things on television interviews, reports of press conferences on news stations, etc, over 6 years time, which makes them hard to dig up later. Here's an example, something Ashcroft said: "To those who pit Americans against immigrants, citizens against non-citizens, to those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve," Ashcroft told the Senate Judiciary Committee. "They give ammunition to America's enemies and pause to America's friends. They encourage people of good will to remain silent in the face of evil." http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/12/06/inv.ashcroft.hearing/ That seems pretty much in line with what Pelosi said. Both are claiming that critics are being irresponsible and either "un-American" or aiding "America's enemies."
Really? I don't see it at all. Ashcroft seems to be talking about a side effect of protesting, and not the actual act of protesting. I'll agree that Ashcroft's statement is completely devoid of an opposing perspective, though.
To answer your original post before you edited it - I have no idea who mindmatters is sponsored by. I was merely doing research at your statement about swastikas. I hadn't seen mention of it before. However, I did see several other sites mention it if you'd like me to dig them up. I try not to limit myself to one source or one point of view. I merely pick items at random to get a cross-section.
Also, as I stated in my earlier post - I think it's a fine line to bring it up and I've already said it should be brought up in an apolitical manner. So what exactly is the point anyone is trying to make? The town halls are being manufactured now. Because before they were just as useless with people shouting down any attempt at discussion. Do you see the issue developing yet?
Hmm, as I read it, he's talking about the act of criticizing the war effort with allegations of trampled liberties ("...to those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists..."). So it seems to me to be talking about the act of protesting in a certain way (as is Pelosi...she's talking about the act of protesting via "drowning out civil discourse"...ostensibly, not all types of protest). I'm not defending Pelosi...I don't think she should be criticizing any type of peaceful protest, but I think Ashcroft was doing largely the same thing.
Yeah. Like I was saying. This is Ashcroft's view on a result that he feels the protesters are accomplishing. He didn't call their protesting "un-American", though. I get the impression that you feel that I support Ashcroft's words. I don't. He may have a point, but he should have expanded on it to clarify his intent. Pelosi's words carry no nuance.
What does the odd photo of somebody at a protest holding a swastika have to do with anything? Pelosi made the comment when asked about the protesters. Are all of the protesters carrying swastikas? It seemed to be a rather demeaning and pigeon-holing thing to comment about regarding the thousands of people across the country protesting her healthcare plan.
Whatever, yak. Clearly you have a problem with people trying to have their voices heard by leaders trying to shut them out of the debate. That's a you problem. Many of these people are Democrats, BTW.
I don't believe I've disagreed with you yet on this particular subject so I'm not sure what you're getting at? I'm perfectly okay with the un-American comment because I believe hysterical, rhetorical yelling that defeats honest discourse is more in line with social norms from fascist countries vs. America. Perfectly legal, but in poor taste. But, as previously mentioned ad nauseum, the swastikas thing should be strictly apolitical if it is discussed.
i saw that there was some ad attacking the protestors for these "rallies". of course, they blamed rush limbaugh and the GOP. "you damn neocons, stop watching your fox news!" so cliche.
I don't think his statement carries any nuance. He can't literally say "It's treasonous to accuse us of trampling liberties in conducting this war," so he said the same sentiment more softly. And no, I don't feel you support Ashcroft's words. I got the impression that you felt this was a "Democratic party" thing, which I don't think it is. I think it's an old and common (and distasteful) strategy employed by both parties (and other parties, when they've had power).
[video=youtube;PtTBkxvBq88]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtTBkxvBq88[/video] there it is. stop those rabble rousers!
Again, Papa, you seem to be wearing blinders that prevent you from either reading posts or understanding them, I'm not sure which. I've already stated many, many, many times that people from both sides should be ashamed for implementing tactics which seeks to avoid HONEST discourse. But these people weren't trying to have their voices heard. They were trying to prevent others from speaking or having any rational conversation about the subject. Explain to me how attending a meeting for the public and then just continually yelling at the top of your lungs with no sense or order or respect or waiting for responses or discussions is anything but negative? They've started to be shut out of the debates in town halls because of this which has only starved the conversation of another point of view. But for cripes sake, would you let your kids just yell and scream and throw a tantrum and get their way because they did so? Or would you ask them to first calm down and act like an adult (though harder for them) and discuss the matter? These are people who have no problem acting like 3 year olds...Clearly you are the one with the problem understanding my posts, please do not assign views to me since you have no clue what they are.
Actually I don't often support Act Up. NO ONE said don't comment. Shouting people down is not commenting. Shouting down people trying to participate is not commenting. The instructions for the town meetings specifically say not to engage in debate but to prevent the congressperson from speaking. That is not commenting. That is thuggery. I already know Spanish. What does Venezuela have to do with shouting down a congressperson or a citizen to keep them from speaking their minds? Is only YOUR mind the one that can be spoken? And how do you know what "truth" is if you won't listen to what someone says? Is truth whatever the insurance company wants? Or Rush Limbaugh?
But you do support them. I know. You and your ilk should tell the unions to back off average americans trying to address their concerns with their representatives. Felicidades. Eres muy especial. Ahora será más fácil para ir a Venezuela o Cuba. Again, it's not the person supporting this plan getting yelled down, it's the person who dares oppose El Jefe. And if you can't tell truth from spin, then deleted.
The problem with the protesters, is that they are calling Obama a socialist and a fascist. I think everyone can agree that the death of Hitler was a good thing. By equating Obama to the Nazi's it is saying "it's ok to kill obama because he's just like hitler." My main point is that it's ok to disagree with those in charge. It's okay to protest. It's not right to interrupt someone else's free speech. It is also okay to call someone "unamerican" because hey, that's part of free speech! The bush administration made it clear anyone that questioned the IRAQ war was "unamerican". It was also "unamerican" when obama didn't wear his american flag pin. I'll let you guys have the last word, because i'm way too lazy to banter on this subject.
