Agree completely, Jordan was just as much of a diva (if not more) but every detail is scrutinized greater in this era.
I think a lot of hate Kobe's received also stems from wearing the Purple and Gold uniform. The Lakers are the most storied franchise in the NBA and with it comes a lot of love/hate relationships. The team is polarizing and when you have a polarizing superstar in Kobe Bryant it creates a perfect storm. For example, if Kobe was the savior of New York Knick or Philly 76er basketball I think he'd be seen in different light. Every year Kobe is closing the distance on his greatness in comparison to Jordan. Winning a ring and MVP honors really solidified him as a legend for the sport. If the Lakers win another title this season especially against a healthy Boston team it has to go down as one of the best matchups in NBA Finals history. What's scary is we haven't seen any dropoff in Kobe's game. He's actually still getting wiser and more efficient as he gets older and the franchise puts the pieces in place to win around him.
Great assessment sir. :O It really baffles me sometimes, I never see anyone get on Jordan's case for hogging the ball. Here is a little comparison for you: MJ 1986-1987 Pace adjusted (per 100 possessions pace at 40 minutes a game): 40 MPG 38.7 Points per game 4.8 Assists per game 5.5 Rebounds per game 3.46 Turnovers per game 56.2 True shooting percentage 40 Wins Kobe 05-06 Pace adjusted (per 100 possessions pace at 41 minutes a game): 41 MPG 39.0 Points per game 5.0 Assists per game 5.85 Rebounds per game 3.44 Turnovers per game 56 True Shooting percentage 45 wins I think Kobe's season was better, he accomplished it in a very deep conference in the more athletic era. Just goes to show how underrated this guy is.
You may also want to add: - that Jordan was accused of hogging the ball a TON in his early years (particularly 86-87) - Kobe actually got a higher percentage of 1st place MVP votes than Jordan (18% to 13%) in those respective years - you're comparing a 10th year player to a 3rd year player - you're comparing Kobe's best PER season to Jordan's 5th best - the NBA instituted a "no hands" policy that benefited players like Kobe (see here for an overview; there was a huge spike in perimeter scoring that year). - Jordan averaged twice the rate of steals/blocks Also, you're double-counting by giving Kobe credit for playing more minutes and giving him credit for scoring/rebounding/assisting more with those increased minutes. And if you want to credit Kobe for playing more minutes per game, shouldn't you also credit Jordan for playing two more games? Jordan actually tallied more total minutes that season. Code: Stats Per 100 possessions: MJ Kobe GP [b]82[/b] 80 mpg 40 [b]41[/b] pts [b]46.5[/b] 45.6 reb 6.5 [b]6.8[/b] ast 5.8 5.8 stl [b]3.6[/b] 2.3 blk [b]1.9[/b] 0.5 tov 4.1 [b]4.0[/b] ts% [b].562[/b] .559 (fixed)
You're really overstating what I said. I don't think Kobe statistically blows MJ out of the water, but there are a lot of nuances you choose to forget as well. - Pippen had better PER when Jordan left the team, PER depends on touches and hogging to a degree. -Jordan never had to defer as much as Kobe. Play with Shaq in his prime and you can only get so many touches. Uh don't even try that lol, Kobe was not even on many people's ballots. People think of him as a criminal, something Jordan doesn't have to deal with. I don't know why you waste time arguing this. -Superior perimeter era now. Sorry, Per is irrelevant imo. Compared to Kobe's hate back in 05-06? I don't think it was even close. He was fourth on the MVP list that year, left off several ballots all together. Wow why are you getting so touchy all of a sudden? You're retorting stuff I didn't even mention. I'm wondering when I said, Kobe's PER was better? I do not care about PER, but you may want to calculate that true shooting percentage again. Cause it is way off son.
Really I wasn't even trying to get into the whole Kobe is better than MJ thing. -Kobe was suspended two games, which isn't the same as not being able to maintain that average, imo. Maybe something else you should mention. -Jordan wasn't close to the defender Kobe was at that time, he's a team defender that relied on Pippen to guard the other perimeter scorer. -Wade is not the best defender in the league, he blocks/steals like crazy. PER does not account for this, it never has. Zone defense was also "illegal" back in jordan's day. The league is way more athletic now, and the hands policy is a two way rule.
Here's a fair question. What does Kobe need to accomplish to surpass Jordan as GOAT? If he wins 7 rings before he retires and is still a major focal point in acquiring those rings?
If he gets 7 rings as a major focal point, that's pretty much at least co-GOAT status to me. A lot depends on these next few years. Damn this team is in position to accomplish a lot.
What separated Jordan from pretty much anyone else, in terms of media and fan perception, was the duration over which he was considered the best player in the league. Maybe a span of 8-10 seasons in which the majority of people believed him to be the best player. Its Jordan's sheer dominance over his peers, and the media adulation that went along with it, that entrenched the view he's the "GOAT". Kobe's peaking in individual accomplishments right when a new crop of superstars like LeBron James and Dwyane Wade are around to challenge him for league's best player. And unlike with Jordan, most statistical arguments aren't really in his favor. I mean, you can get really creative/selective and massage the stats to favor Kobe, but most everyone will agree that Kobe's numbers don't put him clearly ahead of the competition. All the arguments on what Kobe would have done if he played in the 80s, and what Jordan would have done if he played in the 00s, are irrelevant to me. What matters is the extent to which they dominated the competition. For Kobe to be considered the GOAT, he'll have to elevate his game over the competition and sustain it well into his 30s. Pretty much an impossible task, but he'll have my ultimate respect if he does it.
I was not shocked at all that once Shaq left, Bryant was able to do what he did. Still he's had 30 points per game since 22 years of age even with the deferring, a pretty dominant career in his own style. All that's left is for him to win like you said Shape. I'll argue a different subject, Kobe's dominance in this era, since that is much more relevant to me. This era is played differently. He's more durable than Wade, better defender (regardless of his athleticism, "steals", and "blocks") Wade has inferior defensive PER. Bryant's been the best playoff performer over the past two seasons easily, even though he's outside his Prime; just superior over the long haul really. Chris Paul lacks defensive ability, Kobe even bested him in PER differential last year and that was a "down" year for Kobe. Statistically his only consistent rival is LeBron. LeBron uses the most shot clock per possession though and takes about half his shots at the end of the shot clock which is quite awkward for a superstar. In the triangle with other stars he would struggle to put up the exact same numbers. Kobe had 27+ PER against the Rockets, 30 Per against the Nuggets and shut down Melo after he torched Ariza Game 1, and 27.5 PER against the Magic while using less time per posession. I think that already qualifies as a better post-season than Bron's 16 game sample size against the 40 win Pistons, injured Hawks, and Magic. Bron got outplayed in the conference Finals which was quite fun. Kobe just needs to turn it on playoff time like he usually does these past few seasons and he'll be fine. He will certainly be in the GOAT discussion.
