If the Knicks are the laughingstock, what does that make the Bulls?

Discussion in 'Chicago Bulls' started by Denny Crane, Dec 23, 2009.

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  1. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    I have no idea what you're talking about.
     
    Denny Crane, Jan 14, 2010
    #41
  2. bullshooter

    bullshooter Active Member

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    bullshooter, Jan 14, 2010
    #42
  3. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    That's just nuts.

    The Bulls are paying Tim Thomas and Jerome James 1.5x more than Gordon would have accepted, and those guys don't even come off the bench and do squat. They didn't just find themselves in a position where cap flexibility is an excuse to let your best player walk for nothing, they could have signed him at extension time and had at least two years to figure out their cap flexibility angle.

    No matter how you try to use fuzzy logic on the situation, having Gordon off the bench (or starting) is by far better than having Pargo, Hinrich, and Salmons trying to fill that role. They fail at it miserably.

    Your logic is fuzzy for reasons I've stated already, but am forced to repeat here:

    Even at $11M/season (but he makes $10M), Gordon would be the FOURTH HIGHEST PAID: Celtic, Cavalier, Maverick, Nugget, Laker, Hornet, Magic, Sun, Spur, or Jazz. He'd be third highest paid on a number of other teams.

    How about those teams' records?

    Celtics 27-11, Cavs 31-11, Dallas 26-14, Denver 26-14, Lakers 31-9, Hornets 19-19, Orlando 26-14, Phoenix 24-17, San Antonio 24-15, Utah 23-18.

    See the pattern yet?
     
    Denny Crane, Jan 18, 2010
    #43
  4. bullshooter

    bullshooter Active Member

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    Denny, you need the flexibility to go out and get the other guys who make BG the fourth best player on your championship caliber team. And you sure as hell don't lock up BG for that kind of money before you get the other guys. The pattern is that BG isn't an allstar, isn't a building block, and isn't a good use of cap space. He didn't do anything with the opportunity to show where he could carry the bulls; he took them to the lottery. Last year he had the bulls headed to the lottery again until Rose matured and Salmons and Miller showed up. You just don't overpay for a guy like BG and everybody who knows anything about the game knows that Dumars overpaid for BG. End of story.
     
    bullshooter, Jan 18, 2010
    #44
  5. bullshooter

    bullshooter Active Member

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    Thomas and James make ~11 mil. The only pattern I see there is you making shit up again. BG was never going to accept $7 mil. I'd have said sign him at that number.
     
    bullshooter, Jan 18, 2010
    #45
  6. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    They don't have the flexibility because they have over $20M locked up in two guys that aren't as good as Gordon. Those would be Deng and Hinrich.

    I already suggested a pair of trades that would make sense for us, now that Gordon is gone.

    Hinrich and Thomas ($15.25M) for Bosh ($16M)
    (We score a MAX FA, costs us $6.25M in cap space)

    and

    Deng ($11.4M) for Rudy Fernandez, Blake, and Outlaw ($1.2M, $4.9M, $3.6M).
    (We net another $7.5M in cap space)

    Gives us room to sign LeBron, Wade, or Johnson, or whoever we want. If anyone is willing.

    Before a FA:

    Rose, Salmons, Fernandez at guard
    Salmons, Bosh, Noah, Gibson up front

    Here's the math:
    Fernandez $1,246,680
    Bosh $16,378,300
    Salmons $5,808,000
    Rose $5.546,160
    Noah $3,128,540
    Johnson $1,713,600
    Gibson $1,117,680
    1st Round Pick (a guess) $1,117,680
    = 8 roster spots for $36,652,560

    Four cap holds to bring roster to 12 players
    @ $460K = $1,828,000

    Total Salaries:
    $38,480,560

    Expected Salary Cap:
    $50M - $53M

    Leaves $12M (Signee uses one of the 4 cap holds)
    to
    $15M

    If we renounce the 1st round pick, we save another $1.3m

    If we renounce James Johnson, we save another $1.3m

    MAX contract is 30% of the CAP ($50M - $53M) = $15M - $15.9M
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2010
    Denny Crane, Jan 18, 2010
    #46
  7. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Thomas and James make about $12M, Gordon would have signed for something like an average of $10M (less to start!), so they make at least 125% and more like the 150% I stated.

    Gordon was reportedly ready to accept the Bulls offer of 5 years / $50M.

    Starting at $8.25M with 10.5% raises, a contract works out to $49.9M.

    $12M = ~ 150% x $8.25M
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2010
    Denny Crane, Jan 18, 2010
    #47
  8. bullshooter

    bullshooter Active Member

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    Hinrich and Deng are every bit as good at their positions as BG. Even if you're counting 6th man as a position. Deng is better.
     
    bullshooter, Jan 24, 2010
    #48
  9. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Certainly not true the past 5 seasons or so. This season, you can argue that a guy who's been hurt and played hurt (ankle, hamstring) is worse than --whoever-- because he simply isn't playing or playing on a good leg.

    However...

    Gordon's PER this season is 16.4, his career PER is 16.3
    Deng's PER this season is 16.7, his career PER is 16.4
    Hinrich's PER this season is 10.4, his career PER is 14.5

    Those figures include Deng's rebounds and blocked shots, as well as all those costly turnovers you claim for Gordon.
     
    Denny Crane, Jan 25, 2010
    #49
  10. bullshooter

    bullshooter Active Member

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    What those numbers don't include is the fact that Deng can actually guard the elite players at his position, which nobody in their right mind thinks BG can do. They also don't include the fact that Deng is two years younger. Deng was just as good as BG the whole time and better if you count being able to play both ways. We can argue forever about Hinrich and BG and defense vs offense and all the rest of it and I'm sure we will, but Deng is clearly a better player at his position than BG is.
     
    bullshooter, Jan 25, 2010
    #50
  11. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Deng was (and still isn't) a top 15 SF.

    Gordon was a top 15 SG all along. Which is why it was difficult to find an adequate replacement. In the NBA, you don't have to guard the elite players at your position if you have versatile players. Gordon did just fine guarding PGs all along, several seasons where the Bulls were among the elite defensive teams in the league. Gordon did just fine guarding SFs last season as well, since Rose was guarding PGs come hell or high water.

    To use your own argument, Hinrich is 3 years older than Gordon.

    And we had a guy last season who is 6'5", plays SG, was a 1st team all nba defender, and has been a 20+ PPG scorer three times in his career (lifetime 16.6, PER 15.1). He didn't beat out Gordon last season. Given all the things you seem to desire in a SG, the actual experts at coaching in the NBA (that'd be Bickerstaff and Harris) didn't agree.
     
    Denny Crane, Jan 25, 2010
    #51
  12. bullshooter

    bullshooter Active Member

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    Denny, you are in a dreamworld. BG was never more than a very good player off of the bench. He wasn't and still isn't a starter except in some kind of gimmick offense. Deng has been above average and in the top half for a while now.

    By the way, how does the Knicks posting their all time worst home loss impact your theory. Still think guys will be lining up to go there?
     
    bullshooter, Jan 25, 2010
    #52
  13. bullshooter

    bullshooter Active Member

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    Who are you talking about? Larry "I can't get clock on the worst Knicks team in a couple generations" Hughes? Really? That's your argument? They started Hughes over BG to begin with, but Hughes got hurt.

    If Hinrich doesn't get hurt last year, BG would have been traded. The only reason they didn't was because they were making a furious run at the playoffs and that would have been a white flag trade at the time. If they had been comfortable in the hunt they would have moved BG.
     
    bullshooter, Jan 25, 2010
    #53
  14. bullshooter

    bullshooter Active Member

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    Denny, the bulls tried every warm body they had at SG before they ran out of them and put BG in there as a starter. He didn't beat anybody out of anything. They went with Hughes, Sefolosha (who with a rookie Rose made the backcourt too weak to beat anybody) and then Hinrich. I guess you could say he beat out Sefo, but is that really something to be proud of?
     
    bullshooter, Jan 25, 2010
    #54
  15. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Gordon played 5 seasons with the Bulls and started 204 out of 398 games. Not counting his rookie season, when he won 6th man of the year, he started 201 out of 319 games. For 2/3 of all those seasons, you'd think the Bulls might find someone to beat him out. When he wouldn't sign a lowball extension, the team cut his minutes at the cost of 16 wins (49 wins to 33).

    And we know that Skiles insisted on having one of Nocioni or Gordon on the bench, instead of playing his 5 best players, so the second unit would have someone who could put the ball in the basket. Not much different than this team. Fool you 11 times.

    Oddly, Sephalosha is good enough to start for OKC - a better team than the Bulls with a better future. And he starts next to a guy similar to Rose in Westbrook. Where do you come up with that kind of thing?
     
    Denny Crane, Jan 25, 2010
    #55
  16. bullshooter

    bullshooter Active Member

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    None of that makes any sense, or is backed up by any facts. And not only that, but you contradict yourself. Sefo starts next to Westbrook. That right there ought to tell you why the bulls let BG go. Balance. And Rose is a much better scorer than BG already, so the natural choice was to let BG go and find someone to balance Rose's scoring. There's nothing more to it than that. And that's why the bulls sucked so much at the beginning of last year, they had two offense only guys in the backcourt who couldn't play any defense to save their lives.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2010
    bullshooter, Jan 26, 2010
    #56
  17. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    If the Bulls seek this "balance" then why did they let Sefo go?

    And it was you who said Sefo wasn't a good starter next to a Rose type, and Westbrook is a Rose type. It is you who contradicts yourself. I say Gordon beat out Sefo who is good enough to start and get a new contract with OKC.

    The Bulls sucked at the beginning of last year because Noah couldn't stay on the floor, Drew Gooden and Larry Hughes missed a slew of games, Deng missed 30 games and otherwise played hurt, Aaron Gray started most of the 1st 20 games, and so on. It's not a shock that getting a starter and a quality reserve improved the team.

    Like this season, the reserves of Linton Johnson, Demetris Nichols, Anthony Roberson, Cedric Simmons, and Lindsey Hunter were non-contributors. Though we actually played Tim Thomas 18 games.

    Don't let those pesky number thingies (facts) get in the way of your argument.
     
    Denny Crane, Jan 26, 2010
    #57
  18. bullshooter

    bullshooter Active Member

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    C'mon, you're better than that. We all know why they traded Sefo, because Paxson is an idiot, right? Don't you have a few thousand comments about how dumb those guys are with talent evaluation?

    But we know that they got it right letting BG, don't we, since BG doesn't even start in Detroit...
     
    bullshooter, Jan 26, 2010
    #58
  19. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Denny Crane, Jan 27, 2010
    #59
  20. bullshooter

    bullshooter Active Member

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    How many games did he start where Rip Hamilton was available? Rip started the first game and got hurt. It was only then that BG started. So once again, BG is the starter by default. Until they trade Rip, BG will continue to come off of the bench. And they were 5-11 with him as a starter, so that big free agent signing really paid off.
     
    bullshooter, Jan 27, 2010
    #60
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