Brian Berger: Interesting Inside Info about KP

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by Hype #9, Jun 27, 2010.

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  1. BrianFromWA

    BrianFromWA Editor in Chief Staff Member Editor in Chief

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    So you're going with the "even though he wasn't the GM, and even though there's mounting evidence that KP didn't run the show in 2006, you're still going to believe the hype"?

    I don't listen to WEEI much, but I've never heard a single person (much less Ainge's boss at the time it happened) say anything differently than it was Danny who pulled off that trade.

    I don't get this one. But if you remove all of the steroid-infested seasons from Mark McGwire's record, does he still get into the Hall of Fame for being a Home Run Legend? Nope. See...after-the-fact information changes public perception that was unwarranted previously.

    You're welcome to your opinion, obviously. But no one has ever doubted that Pujols hit his own homers unaided, or that Ainge was the ringleader behind that draft.
    Of course, not every decision works out. And if you want to take a look at the transactions I pointed out since KP had been GM and say "he's a great GM based on the other moves, I could totally see that", then fine.


    Yet you're saying that it's as likely that he did as Pujols hitting his homers or Ainge making the KG/Allen trades, which isn't so.
    That's the answer I was looking for. For you it is. And I'd imagine you'd say that it isn't for Patterson and Gabriel?
     
    BrianFromWA, Jun 27, 2010
    #141
  2. Minstrel

    Minstrel Top Of The Pops Global Moderator

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    No, my position is that he's a very good GM for all the moves you listed in addition to acquiring Roy and Aldridge, as he was widely reported to have been in charge of that draft, even if he hadn't been given the "general manager" title yet.

    I'm not saying that, silly. I'm pointing out that the logic of "If you remove someone's greatest successes, does the rest of his record suggest he could pull off his successes" is not very good. Because no one's remaining track record looks as good as their greatest successes.

    I'm not deciding who was in charge based on the rest of their track records. I don't think that makes any sense.
     
    Minstrel, Jun 28, 2010
    #142
  3. BrianFromWA

    BrianFromWA Editor in Chief Staff Member Editor in Chief

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    Yet when info comes out that says he wasn't, you're discounting that. Since it's in dispute, I'm asking if you artificially remove the disputed parts, if it shows that it's something that's in their sphere. Specifically...KP has talked about a lot of trades...a lot of trade ideas have been rumored to be close, KP's made "1000's of phone calls" in trade deadline weeks, yet there's only been two trades of significance that he's ever pulled off...Camby and ZBo. Yet you're saying it's logical that an assistant GM who's never been more than a interim coach and Player Personnel director sets up a multi-team, multi-path deal to and consummates within 12 hours the ability to trade his starting PG and bad contracts for the #7 and bad contracts, while also jockeying high-lotto picks around with CHI, AND keeping up the intel on what MIN and HOU were doing so he could outmaneuver them for Roy?
    To say that there's not even a chance that KP didn't do it seems silly.
    Of course not. But pulling off that move wouldn't have been, say, Mitch Kupchak's or Danny Ainge's greatest success. And it would've been absurd to think Elgin Baylor could've pulled that off. There's room to interpret there, and you've interpreted that it makes sense that KP was in charge then. I think it's grayer than that.
    You said that Roy/LMA was KP's greatest success. I'm saying it's debatable, and that the rest of his track record doesn't necessarily scream "Mover-and-shaker-who-consummates-big-deals-at-pressure-times"
     
    BrianFromWA, Jun 28, 2010
    #143
  4. OSUBlazerfan

    OSUBlazerfan Writing Team

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    Thanks PapaG.... for coming into yet another thread and fucking destroying it

    **Deleted**
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2010
    OSUBlazerfan, Jun 28, 2010
    #144
  5. jlprk

    jlprk The ESPN mod is insane.

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    Papa, you make some mistakes in this thread.

    1. You say that Paul Allen still owns 95.5, inferring that the station is biased for Allen, so Brian Berger is too. Allen sold the station last year.

    2. You say that Berger's firt radio show was on 95.5. Then you give his site (link above). Clicking on "About BBPR" you will find a biography that says, "Before Brian moved to Portland, he served as the radio voice for the Loyola Marymount University Lions' basketball and baseball teams in Los Angeles from 1988-1992. The basketball team featured the late Hank Gathers and NBA lottery pick Bo Kimble."

    3. You say you know Berger, threaten him with personal knowledge you have, repeatedly call him a shit, and complain that you can't post your secret info in the comments on his blog because he screens them. Pretty scummy. He screens them because he knows there are crazies out there like you.

    4. You say you are in the PR business. This calls into question everything you have ever posted on this board. Do you represent anyone we ever talk about? Why are you and RoyToy so emotionally involved in defending Pritchard?

    5. You keep saying you will "research" Berger and get back to us tomorrow. Why do I expect disappointment?
     
    jlprk, Jun 28, 2010
    #145
  6. THE HCP

    THE HCP NorthEastPortland'sFinest

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    WOW!
     
    THE HCP, Jun 28, 2010
    #146
  7. Tince

    Tince Well-Known Member

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    Don't get me wrong, I hope you're right, but there were a handful of circumstances that led to him averaging 13ppg (which isn't incredible by any means).

    1) Roy was hurt
    2) Rudy had his head up his ass
    3) Phoenix has some horrible interior help defense
    4) Phoenix focused on stopping LMA and Miller, daring others to beat them.
     
    Tince, Jun 28, 2010
    #147
  8. THE HCP

    THE HCP NorthEastPortland'sFinest

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    I don't care why or how he did it.....................he did it!
     
    THE HCP, Jun 28, 2010
    #148
  9. jlprk

    jlprk The ESPN mod is insane.

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    I've read others say that on message boards and it sure makes sense.

    When Papa's kids become teens, they'll make a man out of him. You get whatever you deserve from how your teenagers turn out. And that will ALWAYS be the opposite of you. Yin and yang.
     
    jlprk, Jun 28, 2010
    #149
  10. Tince

    Tince Well-Known Member

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    You should care.

    13ppg for our starting SG isn't overly impressive. Bayless won't average 13ppg with Roy healthy, and I'd much rather Roy be healthy!
     
    Tince, Jun 28, 2010
    #150
  11. THE HCP

    THE HCP NorthEastPortland'sFinest

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    You are just used to 21 from Brandon. It is impressive actually, he was the forth option in the offense. I would be curious to see what the scoring average is for every shooting guard in the NBA and what the scoring average is for every teams 4th option on O.
     
    THE HCP, Jun 28, 2010
    #151
  12. Minstrel

    Minstrel Top Of The Pops Global Moderator

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    Hello darkness, my old friend
    Yes, Steve Patterson, the guy who was pushed out, suddenly showing up and saying "That was all me" isn't very compelling. I wouldn't call it "new information" because I'm not sure it is "information." If you find it extremely compelling, that's fine.

    My point (here) was not that Pritchard definitely did do those moves or that he didn't. It's that "Does the rest of his track record retroactively predict those moves" is not a particularly logical way to argue it. IMO, of course.

    Pritchard has made plenty of draft day moves. The idea that 2006 was a flurry of action and then he did nothing other than trading Randolph and trading for Camby is so completely divorced from reality, it seems like you're intentionally trying to distort things. Draft day deals to get Bayless and Batum are certainly of a piece with what he reportedly did in 2006. Even "quiet" draft days like this year and last involved trades.

    Distorting the facts that dramatically suggest you're really in this to practice your spin abilities rather than trying to analyze what actually happened.

    I said that I didn't know for certain whether he did or didn't do it. For you to say Hitler was a wonderful man seems silly. ;)

    It would have been Kupchak's. Ainge has his own single, shining off-season that isn't "supported" by the rest of his track record.

    As I said at the top, it's fine by me if you put stock in Patterson's version.

    It certainly screams "draft day mover-and-shaker." Of course, he didn't get another Roy, but Batum is a pretty similar strike to Aldridge. But nothing beyond Roy, Aldridge and Batum suggests he can get those kinds of players, so perhaps someone was behind the Batum move, too. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2010
    Minstrel, Jun 28, 2010
    #152
  13. OddEnormous

    OddEnormous I'M FLYING!! I'M FLYING!!

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    BOOM!

    :cool:


    Most of you need your bullshit detectors recalibrated. Assuming you ever had one to begin with.

    Stooges
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2010
    OddEnormous, Jun 28, 2010
    #153
  14. THE HCP

    THE HCP NorthEastPortland'sFinest

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    I hope this means you agree with me or liked my post!
     
    THE HCP, Jun 28, 2010
    #154
  15. OddEnormous

    OddEnormous I'M FLYING!! I'M FLYING!!

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    It does sir.

    :cool:
     
    OddEnormous, Jun 28, 2010
    #155
  16. Tince

    Tince Well-Known Member

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    Who do you think our 3rd option was? Certainly wasn't Batum, he had one arm and we ran less sets for him than Bayless.

    Regardless, it looks like 13.5ppg would be 18th among 30 starting SGs, so that's slightly below average.

    I saw Bayless as our #3 option when Roy was hurt, with Phoenix fully taking away Miller and LMA, daring Bayless (defato #1 option) to beat us.
     
    Tince, Jun 28, 2010
    #156
  17. jlprk

    jlprk The ESPN mod is insane.

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    If you subtract the worst things that Hitler did, he comes out smelling like a rose.
     
    jlprk, Jun 28, 2010
    #157
  18. RoyToy

    RoyToy Clown Town

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    Tince, I think you're looking at it wrong, but I don't really care much.

    To back up Minstrel's point

    Portland made 2 trades in 2007 involving 9 players
    4 in 2007 involving 10
    2 in 2009 involving 7
    And w/e 2010 was

    The draft was KP's baby. That's why it's not hard to believe he was behind all the trades in 2006. It's what he does. 2006 there was just more work to be done, that's all.
     
    RoyToy, Jun 28, 2010
    #158
  19. oldmangrouch

    oldmangrouch persona non grata

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    OK, fair enough. So what about Patterson's track record makes you believe he could pull it off? This is the same yahoo who was in charge when the team effectively dealt Chris Paul for Martell Webster. What about his track record screams "I went from idiot to genius in 12 months!"
     
    oldmangrouch, Jun 28, 2010
    #159
  20. BrianFromWA

    BrianFromWA Editor in Chief Staff Member Editor in Chief

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    I kind of do, since a) he was actually there, and B) I haven't heard many dispute him since he's come out. :dunno:

    If you'll read the post, it says Camby and ZBo were the only "moves of significance". Lots of GMs trade 26 for 28 and 34, or buy picks for 2M, etc. Batum was not a "flurry of deals" that involved complicated GM-ing. They targeted a player and moved to where they needed to. That happens 10 times a draft, so forgive me if I don't label that as a "significant move". Similar for Bayless. They traded 13 for 11, and the cost was downgrading from Jack to Ike Diogu. Maybe that's a good trade, maybe not...moving up two spots and swapping trash isn't "significant" in my book...if it's in yours, cool beans.
    I'd love to see you somehow pull out that getting the 26 pick, or swapping 11 for 13, was "significant" or "complicated". Then you can criticize me all you want for distorting facts.
    You said that 2006 was KP's greatest success. I said that you can't know that.
    Pau Gasol and two rings disagree with that.
    And if, say, Red Auerbach had been there saying Red actually pulled it off and Danny was his gofer, there'd be cause to believe Red, based on track records. KP didn't (doesn't?) have one, while no one has been saying Danny didn't do what he did (unlike the situation here)
    We're not talking scouting ability. I'm happy to say that KP and his team did a great job targeting Roy and LMA and finding Batum and maybe Babbitt and Williams. We're talking about pulling off a couple of the more complex draft-day machinations of the last 10 years or so, and people are coming out saying it wasn't KP that pulled it off, and I'm saying there seems to be reason to doubt.
     
    BrianFromWA, Jun 28, 2010
    #160
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