Ferry to meet with Blazers about GM job Wednesday

Kobe's clutch numbers are rather consistent in being overrated. I mean what has more value, large spans of extremely clutch production, or 3-4 shots you remember from the regular season?

I'll give you a little bio, back in 2006 I joined JBB (now S2). I was upset that I had to hear about the Heat winning a title all day over here, and I was sad that Kobe got knocked out in Game 7 (I might hate the Heat more than any other team). Looking at it objectively though I thought Kobe had to maintain a 28 PER to even be in the discussion for best player in the game (I like Win Shares/SPM/82games as well). With every degrading season I noticed he simply peaked eventually, and LeBron was getting better. Eventually after reading about Win Shares, etc., a little more I came to an easy conclusion. 37 PER in 14 playoff games is just insane.

I don't raise the bar for one guy and lower it for another. I know his flaws perfectly that's why I can go back and fourth with another Kobe supporter.

08-09:
http://www.82games.com/0809/playoffs/08LAL4.HTM#clutch

http://www.82games.com/0809/playoffs/08CLE7.HTM#clutch

Totally blows Kobe out of the water. 14% higher and 17 more points per game. LeBron just has more natural abilities, he's played at a level I haven't seen personally before.

 

Wow, man. You're descending into lunacy. heuvonkiller is one of the most knowledgeable Lakers fans and has generally argued Kobe Bryant's case over almost everyone in recent history other than Michael Jordan. He's only recently come to the determination that James is superior to Kobe. Claiming he "hasn't watched Kobe very much" because he dares to actually use some objective evidence rather than an "Anyone who watches basketball knows..." line of arguing is just silly.

 

Thanks brah.

 

So I'm guilty of not knowing this guy. He's a Laker fan. Why WOULD I know him?

 

I'm not going to argue that Kobe is "clutch" or not. But I would love to see the list of players from huevonkiller, that with 8 seconds left on the clock, your team down by 1 or 2, you would want to have the ball over Kobe.

Brandon Roy.
Steve Nash.
?

 

No, you're "guilty" of saying things like "You must not watch basketball" and "You must not watch Kobe" rather than arguing your position. It's just funnier that you're claiming that about a guy who's probably watched Kobe Bryant much, much more than you have (and happens to be a huge fan of the guy).

 

I don't think Kobe's a "choker" but people don't realize they're using different standards. According to the Lebron standard Kobe is quite easily a career underperformer and choker. So in that case, definitely he's a choker. He's also not a perfect person so I can call him punk as well. Not that I care too much. I don't judge by personality and remain neutral when possible.

As for last shot, well I'd still go with LeBron to be honest. He's shown far more clutch ability in these last few seasons.

 

Dirk, Lebron , CP3, Deron, BRoy, Wade, Kome, Nash, Chauncey are all in the same caliber. They're all versatile and good shooters from midrange where a lot of damage can be done in closing seconds of a game.

All that said, I tend to agree that the whole "Kome is the best closer in the game" nonsense is a myth that is media driven.

 

Good news. So is Portland now!!!!

HUHZAH!!!!!!

 

Essentially, I agree. In fact, I'd go a step further and say pretty much all highly talented, good-shooting wings (including power forwards like Dirk who can play out on the wing) are pretty much the same caliber. The things that cleanly differentiate the very best from the next tier pretty much disappear in a one-possession situation. James or Kobe may be more efficient over 100 shots than Roy or Billups, but that difference in efficiency is essentially meaningless over one possession.

 

No. Ok. Can we talk post season here? I mean, think about it. I fucking hate the Lakers. The only time I watch them is when they're playing the Blazers or when they're in the post season. That's what I know. No, that's what I've SEEN. Post season "clutchness" is the basis of my Kobe vs LeBron "argument." I just have been so unimpressed by LeBron in the playoffs. Or in other words, as I've said, "when it counts." I'm not talking reg season at all here.

Oh, and btw, you were kind enough to deliver me Kobe's finals numbers. I have one for you - LeBron's winning % in the finals - 0%.

 

Yeah, Kobe hasn't defeated many top teams single-handedly either. Unless you feel Larry Hughes was a big-time player that can help anchor a championship team. The next best player on that team was Ilgauskas...who was a decent player, but it's bad news if he's your second-best player against the Duncan/Parker/Ginobili Spurs.

 

Yeah but how many times did he choke in the playoffs compared to Kobe? That's where you lose. And Kobe is Tracy McGrady without Pau and Shaq.

You've been unimpressed with 38-8-8 59 TS% against the #1 defense in the NBA, but you're impressed with a sub 40% shooter in the last two Finals? Who didn't play well in the fourth quarter, shot at pretty much a 29% clip?

I've mentioned the post-season various times, Kobe has constantly underperformed in the Finals and playoffs.

Vince Carter averages about 17 Game Score a game in the playoffs, Kobe is at about 16 a game in the Finals.


Playoffs:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6132

Kobe is at Vince level. LeBron is at Jordan level in the post-season.



http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6142

LeBron has faced tougher defenses in the post-season. It is a clean sweep.

 

But I am arguing my position. I don't know if we can find the kind of stats I'm talking about. And you know this Minstrel. You absolutely know, without a doubt, that Kobe is more clutch than LeBron. Do we really need stats to prove it? Really? I guess I should have been more clear at the beginning, and I apologize for that. But clutch, IMO, has nothing to do with a regular game in January. It has to do with the games that absolutely count. For example: late season games that determine playoff position, and/or every playoff game there after.

Most of you are so caught up in stats. But watching the game, and understanding the impact certain players have on the game, is totally different. Certain players change momentum on a dime. Certain players intimidate and scare their opponent. Certain players just know that they are going to score on you, and then they do. Certain players have the nuts to step up and take that big shot. This is Kobe. And I hate him. But I respect his game. Big time. Other than Jordan, he's the best player I've ever seen with my own two eyes.

As for LeBron, yeah - he's a different kind of animal. He's a new NBA prototype, no doubt. And don't get me wrong, I've SEEN him IN THE ROSE GARDEN make a "game winning shot." As in, not a buzzer beater, but damn close, in order to beat us. In fact, he's put on some amazing performances in the RG. I hate going to Cleveland games. Hate it. But his performance vs Boston in the playoffs this year was fucking SAD. Kobe would never had been such a pussy. Such a coward. Such a baby. No way.

 

So amazingly true. Pre-back injuries, McGrady was a phenomenal wing, and his production mirrored Bryant's. The difference was that Kobe was playing with an amazing center and for an amazing coach, while McGrady was playing with Drew Gooden and Gordon Giricek.

McGrady provides a glimpse into an alternate universe where Kobe was drafted by the Clippers and then later on had injuries.

 

Jesus. Kobe has won 5 rings for fuck sakes. You know how god damn hard that is? Come on. You guys.....

Alright. You stand by your "stats." I'll stand by my eyes. Good enough for me. Not good enough for this particular forum. But hey - I knew that!

 

You're two eyes mean nothing though, because you can not track the aggregate with your eyes.

By the way, there's a stat that measures the little things outside the box score it is called adjusted plus minus. It uses no box score figures at all just impact on point differential. Kobe loses again.

It takes into account any kind of special "making teammates better effect". Kobe fails there.

You're right, regular season stats shouldn't be used. That's why I posted this.

Which has nothing to do with the regular season.
Btw, Kobe's stats are worse in the playoffs, it helps LeBron. Kobe struggles against good defenses.

 

Yeah but Shaq was dropping 35+ a night and 14+ boards in the Finals on the same defenses Kobe struggled against back then.

Kobe has two Finals MVPs and he didn't perform as a closer in either one. Shaq carried his team to those three titles.


LeBron will probably retire with more Finals MVPs.

 

I don't know it. I know the narrative, but that doesn't mean I think it's accurate. Players on championship teams are often bestowed with semi-magical abilities to explain why they're "winners." No one likes the explanation that this talented player is a winner and that talented player is not because of the quality of teammates. They want to hear reasons that make heroes of the winners and scum of the losers. Innate qualities that separate winners from losers. I don't buy that at all.

I think Kobe Bryant is an amazingly good player. He was a big reason the Lakers have won 5 titles. But it's because he's super talented, not because he has clutch abilities. It's because he had talented teams around him, and a brilliant head coach, and not Mo Williams and Larry Hughes around him, coached by Mike Brown. These are the reasons Kobe has 5 rings...brilliant player with plenty of help. James has 0 rings because he's a brilliant player who has had much less help. If you put this LeBron James in place of Kobe Bryant on all the Lakers teams of the past 11 years, the Lakers still have at least 5 titles. James would not have "unclutched" them out of rings. The Lakers may even have beaten the Pistons for a sixth title.

So yes...the "we all know Bryant is clutch, end of story" line just doesn't work, IMO. The default, as far as I'm concerned, is that players go as far as their own basketball talent and the talent of their teammates takes them, not some innate "winner" quality that manifests itself in clutch. I'd be open to changing my mind if there was compelling evidence to the contrary, but "It's just true and we all know it" isn't it.

 

This is the magical, make teammates better stat. SPM is an even better version but APM is what Kobe fans talk about.

http://www.basketball-reference.com