The discussion about Lee triggered my frustration with people enamored with PFs. In my mind, the PF used to be a guy who was more athletic than the C, rebounded in traffic, made tough put backs, could post up and intimidate defensively. Nowadays, that's a dying breed. Who does that anymore? Stoudamire is a PF only in that he's big and he finishes, but that's been 70% from passes from Nash. He does not do much otherwise other than is a great jump shooter for a PF. Duncan truly was, but he's more of a C now. Garnett? I believe defensively he's still a tremendous PF, but offensively, he's a jump shooter, now he's nearly a great outside shooter, but still 80% of his points come from jumpers. Boozer? He's probably the best jump shooter for a big guy in the league and has a pretty nice left hook. He rebounds but he's not the dominant glass cleaner that I think of in a PF. Bosh? I've only seen him of and on but he's a jump shooter too with a little more slashing. IMHO he's not that big a defensive presence. Gasol to me is the best right now and its not even close (yeah I've said that before). He does everything, posts up, faces up, tough rebounds (at least last couple of years), and is an inside defensive presence. For the W's, I really think Brandon Wright has a chance to be a true PF but they've got to give him a chance. I thought he got a real chance last year before he got hurt. Its like baseball, you have to give a guy a chance, which means not just one at bat a game, but sticking with him for an extended time, like 15-20 games. Same here for Wright, stick him in and let him play. Not just starting him then giving him 10 mins/game. Now I do not want Lee.
All of the PF's on the team haven't proven to be starter caliber players. Some of it their fault, some of it not their fault. But it still remains, 3 years of Brandan Wright and 2 years of Anthony Randolph, that they have made zero impact. So you'd rather go on your gut that Brandan Wright will be a "PF" that fits your description than David Lee, who is a proven PF, who doesn't seem to fit your ideal description? In other words, the potential in Brandan Wright outweighs the proven production in David Lee.
When you consider the impact of Lee's contract (say $60M for 5 years); yes I'd rather stick with Wright. W's are not going to be a contender for a couple of years. Let's see if Wright sinks or swims. With Curry at PG, I think a Wright and Randolph combo at both forward spots could be lethal if they can stay out of foul trouble.
Great post Phil. I always look to see if there's a Horace Grant or Tyrone Hill out there, I love watching that type of player pound and grind. The guys that come to mind are Wilcox, West, Milsap, Haslem, etc. (all 2nd or 3rd tier players). All of these guys would've done really well in the NBA or the late 80s early 90s. The problem is that in the past, there were clear roles that players filled. 7 footers could rarely run the floor the way they do these days. Now they're all way too quick and athletic for the power forwards to stay with on Defense, or rebound over in traffic. I said it before and took a lot of crap for it, but neither of these guys will ever be starters on a contender. I'd love to see them succeed too, but I just don't see it. I know they're both still young, but neither has the whole package.
I'm indifferent on Lee. If the right pieces were moved and put next to him, I'd be for picking him up (as long as it's not a S&T)
I pretty much feel the same. If we can get him for a fair return on value AND a contract that isn't ridiculous then go for it. If we have to overpay either talent or contract wise then screw it lets just play AR, Wright, Udoh and see what happens.
Boozer, Horford, Al Jefferson, Okafor, Scola, Jason Thompson, Haslem, Milsap, etc. I think there are quite a few of the banger type PFs still playing.
I agree with your definition of a PF, but I think there's more to it as well. It used to be that your PF was your kind of scrappy rebounder, but it evolved so that the PF also became a more important offensive weapon. As far as power, Lee actually does have to be pretty tough to grab as many rebounds as he does. Like you expect out of the power forward position, he also finishes inside often, completes hustle plays, and sets a good screen (he rolls very well, though Amare is the best pick-and-roll executor I've seen). It's not his fault, but the perception is that he just doesn't have the defensive (or offensive) intimidation factor for some reason. You do want a power forward to be able to hit from 20 feet out, I mean it's not a hard shot for anyone, and having that skill and relying on it doesn't mean they're suddenly not a power forward. So basically, I like Lee, I don't want him mostly because I feel that he'd be a bad fit for our team and like others have said, rather just give it a shot with Randolph and Wright and Udoh. As far as Wright being a "true" power forward though, Wright's best post move right now is a lefty hook. I'm not sure what he's been working on since then, but improving his footwork would probably be the best idea to become a better offensive player. And defensively, I'm not sure how he could shape himself more into the role of a PF. He's willing to bang but I just can't say his body will hold up long-term given how easily he's been hurt in the past and his weight issues. Randolph has shown he can be a good rebounder and shotblocker too, better than Wright, but is an enigma when it comes to fundamentals of team defense or even one-on-one defense sometimes.
Boozer was addressed above; Horford, Jefferson, Okafor are centers. Scola, Haslem and Milsap are true PFs, they play with another big and I respect their work, actually wish the Ws had someone like them. My point is that while there are some of these guys, there are not as many "elite" PFs anymore.
I think the real lacking in the NBA is at C. PFs are forced to play there for lack of anyone else. Okafor was a PF when he came into the league, so was Jefferson. Horford is a PF playing C in my book. On the other hand, I always though of Duncan as a C playing PF.
I agree with the lack of true centers, and that's the reason many players who'd usually play forward are now playing center. (It's weird when you have veterans like Marcus Camby, Antonio McDyess, or Joe Smith considered to be centers in my book). Or you have the Warriors where Corey Maggette is considered a power forward. The league has seen some great power forwards come out of this generation between Duncan (who I agree is arguably a C, especially when you consider how he anchors the defense), Garnett, Bosh and Gasol. Going back a bit, we had some heavy bruisers in the league as well, headlined by Karl Malone who was also deceptively quick, extremely skilled, and basically the ideal PF, which is probably why it seems players now are so weak, because when you compare them, there's simply no player even close to his caliber. Many of the other guys in the 80's and 90's were real bangers and defensive guys, though not all teams were fortunate enough to have a great PF back then either, it's just those guys that stand out. In the modern day, with the NBA rule changes, guards and perimeter players are more favored now anyway, which is part of the reason there's more emphasis on those players, I think. I also think you don't give Boozer enough credit. His offensive and defensive rebounding are excellent no matter how you split his stats, it's his shotblocking that's nonexistent.
The problem is that centers take a long time to develop. We'll have to see which rooks will develop into a real C -- Cousins, Monroe, Aldrich, etc. I'm okay with keeping AB, who is a true C, as long as he continues making progress. I'd consider his 2009 -10 production an anomaly.
I may be a little older than you guys... I remember when guys like Olajuwan, Kareem, Shaq, Walton, Daugherty, Ewing, and a whole host of other centers came into the NBA and were solid contributors, if not stars, right away. I also remember guys like Barkley, Unseld, and Cowens, who were undersized for their positions. Cowens was 6'9" playing against guys like Wilt and Kareem (7 footers), Unseld was 6'7" with a very wide ass (for blocking out) who was a great passer and rebounder at C. Then there's guys like Gar Heard, Kermit Washington, and Paul Silas who only played defense and rebounded, really. Then there were guys like McAdoo who scored like Jordan, rebounded like D. Howard, and shot from what would have been 3pt range. Laimbeer was like that (shot from outside), but a bruiser in the paint on D. FWIW
