What would Rose need to do to get in the GOAT conversation?

Discussion in 'Chicago Bulls' started by JayJohnstone, Apr 16, 2011.

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  1. JayJohnstone

    JayJohnstone Active Member

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    Youngest MVP of all time? Nah...

    http://blogs.bulls.com/2011/04/bulls-rally-to-defeat-pacers-in-game-1/

    Have opposing coaches say things like this: "“I thought we did a good job on him all night,” said Pacers coach Frank Vogel. “I look at the 39 points and I’m shocked. But what do you expect from a player who has Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd’s vision, (Chauncey) Billups’ shooting touch and Michael Jordan’s athleticism?”" Probably not.

    Take his game up the same amount from last year to this year? Even if this took 2-3 years. Maybe?
     
    JayJohnstone, Apr 16, 2011
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  2. Mamba

    Mamba The King is Back Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Best player in the league. Bar none. Rose > LeBitch
     
    Mamba, Apr 16, 2011
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  3. FatJerry

    FatJerry Member

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    What would it take ?

    A title this year

    2 more titles over the next 4 seasons with a Keith Bogans upgrade to the calibre of JJ Redick or Shane Battier.

    Then at least 3 more in the next 6 years with having a clear Robin to his Batman , but where Robin is a legitimate multiple allstar....much like what Pau is for Kobe.

    Not necessarily what Scottie was for Michael as Scottie is a top 50 all time player / hall of famer.

    Just doing the first 3 with good strong role playing team mates and then getting the back 3 with a true multiple time allstar (which who knows Joakim still may become )

    On that basis the Bulls most Sacred Cow may well be Derrick Rose.

    Why can't I have a statue next to Mike out in front of the United Center

    Except bigger?

    This is a guy who isn't afraid of ghosts
     
    FatJerry, Apr 17, 2011
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  4. Sex Panther

    Sex Panther works every time.

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    GOAT?

    First he'd need to be the de facto best player in the league. For a while.
     
    Sex Panther, Apr 17, 2011
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  5. JayJohnstone

    JayJohnstone Active Member

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    Probably. But was Kobe better than Tim Duncan, nah....

    Is Lebron better than Kobe?...maybe....his stats sure are...but...he hasn't won jack.....
     
    JayJohnstone, Apr 17, 2011
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  6. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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    3+ MVPs. 6+ Titles. A decade of play like he's doing right now.

    That's a tall order. I'd like to just at least get to the Finals first! :)
     
    kukoc4ever, Apr 17, 2011
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  7. JayJohnstone

    JayJohnstone Active Member

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    OK...this thread was a "What"...anyway...no need to get in out ahead of ourselves.

    But the kid's development from this summer until now is just unbelievable.....
     
    JayJohnstone, Apr 17, 2011
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  8. 44Thrilla

    44Thrilla cuatro cuatro

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    winning one playoff series, that would be a start.
     
    44Thrilla, Apr 17, 2011
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    3RA1N1AC likes this.
  9. 3RA1N1AC

    3RA1N1AC 00110110 00111001

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    lol
     
    3RA1N1AC, Apr 17, 2011
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  10. 3RA1N1AC

    3RA1N1AC 00110110 00111001

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    this would get him into the discussion, assuming all 6+ he was the best player on the floor
     
    3RA1N1AC, Apr 17, 2011
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  11. such sweet thunder

    such sweet thunder Member Staff Member Moderator

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    :-)

    This must seem like a homer conversation and it is . . . but let us have our fun, damnit!

    I think you're on the money, Jay. We would need to see a similar leap in improvement to the one we saw between last year and this year. That would make him one of the best point guard defenders in the league, and a knock down shooter. I'm an obsessed idiot and I checked to see if Derrick Rose's end of quarter three point heaves from the half court line have affected his shooting percentage in a meaningful way. Rose had twenty-seven shots from outside of twenty-eight feet or more with no time left. He made one. If you take those away those from his stats he's actually shooting around .356% from the three this past season. That aint' bad. I could see him shooting 42%-43% next year if we see similar improvement, especially since he has become a 90% free throw shooter over the past few months.

    If you tack on another season of similar improvements Rose would average 29.2 points, 9.4 assists, 4.5 boards, 1 block, and 1.3 steals. That would put him in the conversation.

    After that we would need at least five championships as others have noted.

    It's a long road but anything is possible with the way Rose stepped up this past season.
     
    such sweet thunder, Apr 17, 2011
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  12. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Here's a tough question:

    Does he make his teammates better? if so, who :)
     
    Denny Crane, Apr 17, 2011
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  13. Sex Panther

    Sex Panther works every time.

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    Well isn't that the reason why no one truly believes Kobe is the GOAT? He had a 3-4 year span where he was the best player but none that held the stretch of Jordan.

    Like I said, if Rose wants to be in the conversation, he needs to be the best player in the league first. I'd still put Lebron, Durant, Dwight and maybe D-Wade and Kobe ahead of him at this point. If he put up 29 ppg, 9 apg, and like 5 rpg for a good stretch (or something in that manner), he'll have a shot. Oh, and a few championships.
     
    Sex Panther, Apr 17, 2011
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  14. FatJerry

    FatJerry Member

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    Its a great question

    And my answer is that my jury is still out.

    You could make a case for Luol Deng. But Boozer and Noah's season have been very disruptive with injuries and its just too early to tell. Before Jo went down ...this was trending to yes.

    The other factor to take into account is that our free agent class needs another season ( with injury IMO ) to really establish a rythym and flourish in their roles.

    I think it would be more timely to ask this question at the end of next season.
     
    FatJerry, Apr 17, 2011
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  15. such sweet thunder

    such sweet thunder Member Staff Member Moderator

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    Jon Berry said some interesting stuff during the broadcast of game 1. He was convinced that D. Rose would continue to improve his shooting. I was trying to find reasons for his confidence. Is the fact that Derrick Rose has basically pushed his free throw shooting to 90% over the course of the season a sign that his outside shooting will continue to improve?

    I tossed together a list of the players who've averaged 90% from the stripe since '01-'02 and it's pretty interesting.

    Ray Allen, SG
    Darrell Armstrong, PG
    D.J. Augustin, PG
    Chauncey Billups, PG
    Earl Boykins, PG
    Caron Butler, SF
    Jose Calderon, PG
    Matt Carroll, SG
    Stephen Curry, PG
    Kevin Durant, SF
    Ben Gordon, SG
    Jeff Hornacek, G
    Allan Houston, SG
    Troy Hudson, PG
    Kyle Korver, SG
    Reggie Miller, SG
    Steve Nash, PG
    Dirk Nowitzki, PF
    Luke Ridnour, PG
    Damon Stoudamire, PG
    Peja Stojakovic, SF
    Mo Williams, PG

    There are many of the greatest shooters in the game on the list but there are also some unexpected names. Even among the unexpected names, a great season at the stripe was often paired with a great season from the three point line . . . but this wasn't always the case. D.J. Augustin shot .906 from the line and only .333 from the the three point stripe this season.
     
    such sweet thunder, Apr 17, 2011
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  16. TomBoerwinkle#1

    TomBoerwinkle#1 Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Minimum 8 peat.
     
    TomBoerwinkle#1, Apr 18, 2011
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  17. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    I would settle for a one-peat Then I'll go dig up the big foam #8 finger.
     
    Denny Crane, Apr 18, 2011
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  18. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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    As for making his teammates better, I don't think that's an area he excels in at this point.

    Usually though, this is a skill that get acquired with age. He's a college senior. Its really quite amazing to think about what this guy could become given that he's already the MVP and has so many years to grow / mature.

    On the other hand, as his freakish athleticism diminishes, he'll have to adjust his game. Not sure how that plays out given his size.
     
    kukoc4ever, Apr 18, 2011
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  19. bullshooter

    bullshooter Active Member

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    Really? C'mon. He created a situation where Keith Bogans could start and play 15-20 minutes a night for a team that won 62 games. He let Deng assume a role where he can easily go for 18 and 7 and get defensive player of the year votes, a guy you were killing at the start of the year. The list goes on...
     
    bullshooter, Apr 18, 2011
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  20. bullshooter

    bullshooter Active Member

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    As for what he'd need to do to be in the GOAT conversation: 30/12/5 on 50%/40%/90% with a 3.5 to 1 AST/TO ratio at least once preferably for a team that wins a championship. Probably need to average 25 and 10 with a 3:1 AST/TO for at least 8 years with at least 5 championships. Probably need to have a 3 peat in there for the team dynasty thing.
     
    bullshooter, Apr 18, 2011
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