To be clear, I did say "may," meaning we have the potential to become as God is. I did not say we all will. A lot of my reasoning is the natural evolution of the soul over eternities. I (we) believe that our spirits have always existed in some form. There was a war in Heaven before Adam and Eve were placed on the earth in which some spirits elected to follow Satan and some elected to follow God and Christ. Those those fought for God and Christ were blessed with the opportunity to come to Earth and gain physical bodies. We came to Earth to receive a physical body and experience mortal life. When we die, our spirits, which have always existed in some form, are separated from our physical bodies and go to (for simplicity purposes I'll use a general term) a "holding room" until they're resurrected and receive their final judgment and receive whatever glory they are entitled to. Having been resurrected, people will have bodies like that which Christ had when he showed himself to his apostles after his crucifixion. Those bodies are immortal (meaning we cannot die). What will we be doing with ourselves since we are no longer capable of death? Playing the harp on clouds? No, we will be doing substantially the same things we've been doing on Earth. In particular, we will continue to learn and progress toward perfection as we were commanded to do by Christ. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48). At some point, after eons of time I'd say it would stand to reason that we could get to where God is now if we continue to work at it. We will never supplant God, just like we will never supplant our earthly father. I believe that God is not our Heavenly Father simply because he was our creator, but because we are His literal spiritual offspring. He is the father of our spirits -- our eternal beings. If this is so, we have at least some portion of Godliness in us, so we have the potential to become as God is. Since you asked, I'll explain this with Biblical scriptures even though it would be clearer using both Biblical scripture and scripture from the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and/or Pearl of Great Price. I'm not sure why I should be confined to explain my beliefs and not use all the sources of where my beliefs come from. Seems a bit odd, but I'll oblige. This is King James Version, by the way, in case you were curious. Also, the bolding, underlining, and italicizing, are just for emphasis. Pre-mortal Life Job 38:4-7 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (We were all pretty excited about the creation of the Earth and the prospects it held for us that we shouted for joy.) Ecclesiastes 12:7 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (The definition of return, as I understand it, is to go back to a place you had previously been) Jeremiah 1:4-5 4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Ephesians 1:3-4 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: War in Heaven Revelation 12:7-9 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. God as the literal father of our spirits Hosea 1:10 10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Numbers 16:22 22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation? Deuteronomy 14:1 1 Ye are the children of the Lord your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead. Acts 17:28 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Hebrews 12:9 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? Romans 8:16 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Psalms 82:6 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. Potential for Godhood Genesis 3:22 22 ¶And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: (Related side-note, interesting that God says, "as one of us." Who is he talking to? Himself? Or maybe there was someone else like God present with God when man was put on the Earth.) Romans 8:16-17 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Psalms 82:6 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. John 10:34 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? Matthew 5:48 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Why give a commandment that we couldn't obey? Unless, there was some way it could eventually be achieved...) 1 John 3:2 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. Revelation 3:21 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. I think this addresses your question. It might not if you were asking specifically about whether black people can become a god, but I assumed you just meant in general. If you were speaking of black people, then I give you Acts 10:34 - "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" I elected not to cite scripture for the post-mortal life statements I made since it didn't directly relate to your question.
While I respect your opinion (you see what I did there?), people have every right to feel disrespected when something they hold dear is mocked. Just because you've chosen to believe that it's all a bunch of stories and it doesn't have meaning to you doesn't mean everyone should treat the scriptures with such apathy. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if your wife or kids were truly mocked or disrespected. Why? Because you care about them. I know people joke about your wife all the time on this board, but I'm talking about actual mocking and ridiculing. I care about my religion and my scriptures. I'm not going to get all bent out of shape over someone disagreeing with me, but I can certainly feel disrespected when something I care about deeply is ridiculed and made light of. As I've exemplified, I haven't let it bother me, I just stated that a little more respect would be appreciated if people really wanted an answer to something. What teacher would respond kindly if a question was posed to them in the manner which those questions were posed? Anyway, that's neither here nor there...
How old is this buddy, and was he telling you this stuff while he was an active member of the church or since he's left the church? I ask because almost without fail the stuff you're asking about is used by people to pull members away from the church or for people who have chosen to leave the church for whatever reason to justify having left. It's like ex's. You loved the person at some point, but now you can't stand to say anything nice about them. The things you ask about, of course, have some aspects of truth to them (as all good propaganda does), but I'd be surprised if the information he relayed to you didn't have some negative bias in it. I'm sorry his family hasn't been very supportive of his decisions. Since I have no idea the details behind their situation, I don't offer the following commentary as an explanation, but merely what I've observed. Mormon's are often viewed as an exclusive bunch, not willing to associate with non-Mormon's. I'd say that's a fairly true statement for the most part, but not for the reasons most people think. Anyone who thinks it's easy to be an active member of the LDS church has no idea what it means to be an active Mormon. We don't drink alcohol, coffee, most teas, and some Mormons don't drink caffeinated drinks. We don't have pre-marital sex. We go to church every Sunday for 3 hours (more if they have a particular assignment that requires it). We have a lay clergy, which means the church is run by the members of the church. That means we're in charge of giving the lessons and the sermons and everything else that a church does, and no one is paid to do it. We tithe 10%. We do not generally shop, work, or do other every day things on Sunday's. There is often at least one activity during the week that some member of the family attends. Most boys are active in Boy Scouts. The girls have their own program that they're involved in. This is a lot to handle in addition to working and education and other requirements of life. So we're generally busy people and really don't have a lot of time to build relationships with people that we don't naturally run into during the course of the many church activities and responsibilities. Additionally, because we have these standards and have been taught to avoid temptation, we try not to put ourselves in situations were we could break one of those standards. That's why you don't see too many active Mormon's at bars or clubs. For those of you that have kids or remember being kids, I'd imagine you are concerned about the people your kids choose as friends. That's not much different than what Mormon's do. I guess they just have a more rigid criteria for choosing their friends. I wouldn't say they think they're better than anyone, just that they don't want to put themselves in positions to do something they shouldn't. Obviously that kind of thinking doesn't apply to your friend's family, so all I can say is Mormon's can be judgmental like everyone else. There is nothing in our doctrine that encourages shunning people, especially family. We should turn from sin, but love the sinner as our brother or sister.
Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown or unknowable. Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. via wikipedia
appreciate the reply drock, and for the record, am not some kind of mormon hater, i couldnt care less what anybody wants to believe or not believe. i guess i really am looking for someone, ANYONE who is actually a mormon to address some of these claims, its like pulling teeth to hear what mormons actually believe in. ask a christian what they believe in and they will tell you. ask a muslim what they believe in, they will tell you. but with mormonism and scientology, its like they are too ashamed? shy? to just let everyone know what they 100%, no doubt about it, believe, when they are often the most devoted and steadfast in these said beliefs...and i find that strange i guess
That's interesting. Maybe it's the types of things you're asking about? I think Mormon's are generally willing to tell you what they believe, but I can also see a lot of them ignoring the types of questions you were asking because they get tired of responding to "anti-Mormon" stuff. I think that's what you saw in JET's response. Often I'll have people that will bring up these types of things for the sole purpose of telling me that Mormonism is crazy. I can't tell you how many people have told me I'm going to Hell and I worship Satan or I'm a bigot, or I make women subservient to me simply because they think they know what Mormon's believe and/or teach. Most of the time this comes from some excommunicated member who's angry at the church or someone like yourself that's talked to someone who's left the church. Generally, these people already have their mind made up and only want to bash, mock, or ridicule the church or my beliefs. It gets tiresome defending yourself constantly when people often have no real desire to learn and understand what I believe. What's the point of expending the energy if it's just going to go in one ear and out the other, or worse, in one ear, twisted and distorted, then out to someone else's ear? So I don't think it's matter of being ashamed, I think it's probably a combination of not knowing the answer to the types of questions you're asking because we really don't even discuss those things, or tired of trying to explain things to people who really don't have an interest in hearing what you say; only telling you you're wrong or crazy. Anyway, you're welcome...
i find this incredibly hard to believe...arent "those things" sort of the entire premise for your religion? like..."our god, the one true god, used to be a man like you and me. he lived on a planet in the star system of kolob. he had a million wives, and made love with all of them to create all of our souls here on earth. then he came to earth and made love with mary, and she bore jesus, who died for our sins. and if you live a virtuous life, then someday you can be a god of your OWN planet" wouldnt that be like the first day in sunday school? and after awhile, THEN you can learn all the secret stuff?
I'll attempt to answer the rest of these with what I know. A lot of what I'll say is just my understanding of these topics. I'll try to differentiate between official church doctrine and my personal speculation. If I don't do a good job of that, hopefully it will be obvious enough by my prose which is personal opinion and speculation and what is official. 1. We believe God, Heavenly Father, once existed as a mortal and experienced life similar to what we do. What his role was is not certain. Did he play Adam's role as the first man on His Earth? Did he play the role of Savior as Christ did for us? Was he just some schmo like me? I don't know. A lot of people think this is blaspheme. I fail to see how. If God has always been my God and always will be my God, how is it blaspheme to say that he was once like I am now? Is it demeaning to say that before my existence God was once less than he is now? I've never known him to be any different, so how does that change who he is? All it does is tell me I'm more than just dust of the Earth and there's more to this existence than living and dying. It's been said that Kolob is the star nearest to the planet where God dwells. I'd go into more detail but it would be more confusing. There's a lot of background information that if you don't know/understand/believe that will just make anymore detail confusing. Anyway, do I care if this is true or not? No, because that isn't relevant to my salvation. It's interesting stuff, but knowing whether Kolob does or doesn't exist doesn't change what I need to do to be saved. It explains more about what happens after death and what my potential is, but doesn't tell me how to reach that potential. 2. It stands to reason that if I believe that God progressed to be God and I have the potential to be a god and that God made our universe, that there would be other gods that made other universes. If I believe that anyone has the potential to be a god, then there are likely countless earth-like planets being ruled over by other gods. 3. Jesus' atonement applies to all worlds over which God (our Father and Jesus' Father) has dominion. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. Three distinct and separate beings. Jesus is God's eldest son. As I stated in another post, we are the literal spirit children of our Father in Heaven. Therefore, we are Jesus' brothers and sisters. And, yes, Satan is our brother. I don't think I've heard any other faiths attempt to explain Satan's origin, why can't this be it? Because God and Satan can't possibly be related? Cain and Abel anyone? Agency (the ability to choose) existed in the pre-mortal world. Lucifer chose to rebel. Hence the reason there was a war and Satan was driven out. (See the scripture I posted earlier Rev. 12:7-9). 4. I have no idea how Jesus was conceived. I've heard that theory before, but I couldn't say what's what. What I can say, is that is definitely not official endorsed church doctrine. As a side note, I've also heard some people believe Christ was married and had kids. That's definitely not taught anywhere, just speculation, since we're throwing out extreme ideas. 5. I'm not sure exactly how we came about as spirit beings. We do believe as I said in an earlier post that men can become gods and women can become goddesses and that the family unit exists beyond death. It would make sense that men and women would still have sex after being resurrected, but since we're now immortal beings, what kind of offspring would we have? Or would we all now be infertile? So, maybe that is how it happens. I honestly have no idea, and neither does anyone you would ask on the subject. So to state unequivocally that Mormon's believe that is false. It's speculation based on what we know/believe to be true and what seems to make sense as a natural outcome of what we know and believe. As far as "countless wives" goes, the idea behind that is that there are more righteous women than men and every woman is entitled the blessing of a husband and children. Since we believe there should be no sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage, how else are women going to have children if men don't have more than one wife? So, is it true? Who knows? Is it something to get bent out of shape over if it is? I'm not sure why... So there you go. I could obviously go further with each of these, but like I said, if you don't know/understand/believe other background information first, it won't make any sense to you.
great insightful stuff and some of what you are saying i feel really rings true to the essence of ALL religions, but it is interesting nonetheless.... when you say: "Anyway, do I care if this is true or not? No, because that isn't relevant to my salvation. It's interesting stuff, but knowing whether Kolob does or doesn't exist doesn't change what I need to do to be saved." it really speaks to your faith that you dont even care that it is true or not, but the important part is that you are using that faith to model yourself in your gods image, "practicing what you preach" if you will, and that is lost on alot of so called christians, so kudos to that and drock, when you break it down like you did, it doesnt seem any kookier than any other religion, i just wanted to hear it from the horses mouth for once...americans were/are raised mainly christian, so anything different from those stories rings as false and fantastic to most people, but more power to you man, and when your a god, dont fuck my wife
No. That isn't the premise of the religion. The premise is faith, repentance, baptism, reception of the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end so that we can have salvation --just like all the other Christian churches I can think of. Why worry about whether or not I get to create planets if I haven't even been baptized or if I'm not obeying the commandments? I'm telling you, there aren't Sunday school lessons set up to explain Kolob because Kolob isn't relevant to our salvation. That isn't the core tenants of our church. That may be a distinguishing factor from other Christian faiths, but that's not what we hold to be most important, or even very important at all. That's why we don't talk about it. I'm curious what you mean by secret stuff? Maybe that's why there's a disconnect. I consider the stuff you're asking about more secret than pretty much everything else I can think of (with a few exceptions -- which btw, I call sacred and not secret. I'm not hiding anything from anyone I'm holding it close to me because it's between me and God and no one else). I say that because, as I've said, it takes a fair amount of background information to actually understand why those things make sense to Mormon's. It's not just some giant leap from nowhere. It's based on lots of less spectacular information that is much easier to grasp and understand and maybe even agree with. A lot of people think Mormon's go too far because we go beyond what's in the Bible. Well, a great deal of that is because people think this stuff is our core beliefs when I promise you it's almost never talked about. Again, not because we're trying to hide anything, but because it has no meaning if you don't understand or believe in the core things like faith, repentance, baptism, reception of the Holy Ghost, priesthood authority and temple work.
I think you misinterpreted what I was saying or I didn't state it very well. I was talking to my wife and eating dinner at the same time as typing that, so I it's certainly possible I wasn't thinking it through. I believe it to be true. What I'm saying is that particular bit of information whether true or not shouldn't mean much to someone outside the faith, yet people think we're blaspheming by saying such things or are crazy for saying such things. That concept is so far beyond what we need to be focusing on that it isn't something worth stressing over. Learn to understand and live the smaller things and maybe you can start stressing over things like that. I think you're exactly right. Mormonism isn't that much different from other Christian faiths at the core. We just extend things beyond faith, repentance, baptism, and the Holy Ghost. I'm sure many would disagree though. You don't have to worry about your wife. I'd have to be married to her to have sex with her.
I believe man can evolve into a god. Is that not evolution on a grander scale than a few differing strands of DNA? I also believe that animals evolve and humans make physical adaptations based on their climate and living conditions, but, no, I do not believe we evolved from monkeys or some gelatinous goo that crawled out of the water.
This part seems sexist to me. A woman can never be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. They can make babies, how is it that different than normal women?
