So wait, you believe that if you killed 50 people, all sin is forgiven and you'd get to heaven anyways? Whats the point of being religious/nice then?
I think that's were you and I are at a crossroads. I try and keep God's commandments because I love him; just as a son would want to keep his fathers laws because he loves him. Salvation isn't a reward. It's a gift. Until you see that; you won't understand what I believe in. I believe those rewards you refer to are the crowns you receive when in heaven. My mistake 613 http://www.therefinersfire.org/original_commandments.htm Addiction on anything is idolizing false idols. Just like us being fans with the Blazers.
I don't know how many times I've said this; but I will give you the benefit that you may not have read it. "Salvation is a gift" not a "reward". This gift was because God loves us. Because I love God for his ultimate sacrifice; I choose to try and keep his commandments. I will fail to be without sin; but my heart is that I will try my best to keep them. That "heart" is the measure of faith; which God has already forgiven when I asked for salvation and have Jesus come into my life and wash my sins.
So you can kill 50 people and be forgiven and go to heaven. But, if you don't forgive the asshole that kills your daughter, then God doesn't forgive you and you go to hell? IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS. Again, I guess the point you make is that murder is a big nothing, but holding a grudge against someone puts you in hell? I don't like to quote scripture, but damn. I respect your right to believe anything you want to....but you don't have to be so condescending about it. Why do you think Catholics go to confession, if they will go to heaven after they murder people and worship Satan? Go Blazers
insomuch as this actually happens and isn't just anecdotal, the convertee was likely more indifferent than really a rational non-believer. certainly this would be rare among people who are reasoned enough in their non-belief to bother debating theists on a forum.
So, Mags, you believe if you are once forgiven, you are always forgiven, no matter how badly you live your life after that forgiveness. Would you explain how Lucifer was, being already an angel (therefore previously given the gift), cast from heaven for eternity?
Well, the ones I know of are anecdotal, for sure. Do you really think that it doesn't happen? A non-believer finds out that he will die in hours, days or weeks. The chaplain is right there. Nobody will know if they convert, except the chaplain. What's to loose, whether rational or indifferent? If they convert, and there is a God, they go to heaven. If they don't convert and there's a God, they go to hell. If they do convert and there is no God, what to they loose? Go Blazers
Mags, I respect the living without violating the 10 commandments thing, but I don't think thats necessarily a religious thing. It CAN be derived from a religious upbringing, but I've known people who aren't religious who aren't bad people. Me, my brother and his wife for example. None of us are religious, yet the lack of religious beliefs or upbringing hasn't exactly caused us to stray from the 10 commandments or some of the better morals in religious teachings. Even if the reasons why we are "good moral people" wasn't due to being told an invisible dude up in the sky wants us to be. It was "treat others as you want to be treated" and "people make mistakes, including you. Don't forget that"
i would guess it is quite rare for atheists who's non-belief is based in evidence and reason to convert just due to circumstances that create emotional stress. on the other hand someone who is a non-believer because he just hasn't cared to that point would be much more likely to convert under emotional stress. pascal was literally brain damaged when he came up with his wager : ) also although you may be able to self-brainwash to some extent, genuine belief is not a matter of choice. your question presumes god values faked belief as much as the real thing.
I don't see it that way (i.e., don't convert, there is a god, go to hell). that's a pretty petty and lame low self esteem based god there. If he's all powerful, he shouldn't need us to praise him, convert to him, talk about him, etc. Free will should be the way. If we're good, we can go to 'heaven', if not? you don't. Simple as that. If you've lived a good life, it's ok. And imho, if it is based on "oooh, I gotta do this or I won't get into heaven", thats pointless. Why not just be a good person, regardless of the reward after life? Like the old question, 'what happens if there's an afterlife and you don't believe in god?' well, what happens if there isn't an afterlife, and you're just worm food? Does that change how you act here? It doesn't for me.
Free will is an illusion! Seriously, I recommend everyone read Free Will by Sam Harris. Also, check out The Moral Landscape by Harris.
I'm no minister, so I'm just going to post this excerpt that states pretty well what I've always been told. Go Blazers
You are speaking about the time before Jesus. I got a question. If you believe that God is omnipresent and omnipotent; then wouldn't he know the sins you've committed from birth to death? And if Jesus promised that he died for all sins right? And finally; when we ask for forgiveness; then all sins are forgiven right? And if you understand omnipotent; then there is no time for God. That means what we've done today, yesteryear and the day of death are of the same time to an omnipotent God. This is why losing salvation doesn't work. This is why someone that thinks logically would understand it would be a contradiction if God didn't forgive all sins when we ask for forgiveness.
I am worse than anyone else in my eyes. Don't worry about me judging you. What I know is that "all come short" not the pope, Virgin Mary, or any so called arch bishops. None of them are better than the other in Gods eyes.
If you look at someone perfect and his kingdom that is perfect; you can't bring in imperfect things or beings. There is a place for those that aren't allowed in the kingdom of heaven; but that's something I would like to talk to you privately about.
