I think you hit the nail on the head with the recent history part. Its easier to be outraged and want the true story out there when the event effects you personally, that includes you, your brother, dad, granddad etc. Once you get into the ancient ancestors it just seems like history and how things were done back then. Until recently raping and pillaging were the benefits of winning a war, along with remaining alive. People just accept that's how things were back then. I cant even imagine the horror those people felt seeing a battalion of mounted Mongolian warriors heading for their city. Same thing for Viking raiders, Roman conqurers, conquistadors, etc. The historical impact, battle tactics, and achievements of all these brutal warriors can still be admired though. For me the biggest tragedies of these times are when they not only wipe out a population but when they try to destroy their history as well. The Siege of Tenochtitlan is a great example of all of those. An interesting thought experiment along those lines is how would the world view Hitler today had he won?
Numbers like 20 million are propaganda. Remember Denny's posts claiming that Saddam "was responsible for" (that word can get very indirect) 1 million deaths, after an Iran-Iraq war pushed by Reagan. Most of the deaths were Iranians, who had to use labor-intensive attacks causing many death, since Reagan was arming Saddam but not the Ayatolah with WMDs. Now that the Soviet Union isn't around to counter our propaganda, the mantra begins that Stalin killed 30 million people. Yes, Ukrainian farmers who wouldn't collectivize starved, but 30M out of a total of 115M in Russia (165M in the whole Soviet Union) is ridiculous.
Donald Riegle, a Democrat, headed a Senate committee that investigated the transfer of WMDs and precursors to Iraq. Silly thing is we sent lots of biological weapon precursors but no chemical weapons. The weapons used by Saddam against Iran and his own people were of German and Russian origin, according to doctors without borders who analyzed soil samples where WMDs were used. I'm sure you think Reagan sold all the MIGs, SCUDs, and AK47s to Iraq, too. Anyhow, the figure for Stalin's deaths: http://www.distributedrepublic.net/archives/2006/05/01/how-many-did-stalin-really-murder/ By far, the consensus figure for those that Joseph Stalin murdered when he ruled the Soviet Union is 20,000,000. You probably have come across this many times. Just to see how numerous this total is, look up “Stalin” and “20 million” in Google, and you will get 183,000 links. Not all settle just on the 20,000,000. Some links will make this the upper and some the lower limit in a range. Yet, virtually no one who uses this estimate has gone to the source, for if they did and knew something about Soviet history, they would realize that the 20,000,000 is a gross under estimate of what is likely the Stalin's true human toll. The figure comes from the book by Robert Conquest, The Great Terror: Stalin’s Purge of the Thirties (Macmillan 1968). In his appendix on casualty figures, he reviews a number of estimates of those that were killed under Stalin, and calculates that the number of executions 1936 to 1938 was probably about 1,000,000; that from 1936 to 1950 about 12,000,000 died in the camps; and 3,500,000 died in the 1930-1936 collectivization. Overall, he concludes: Thus we get a figure of 20 million dead, which is almost certainly too low and might require an increase of 50 percent or so, as the debit balance of the Stalin regime for twenty-three years. In all the times I've seen Conquest’s 20,000,000 reported, not once do I recall seeing his qualification attached to it. Considering that Stalin died in 1953, note what Conquest did not include -- camp deaths after 1950, and before 1936; executions 1939-53; the vast deportation of the people of captive nations into the camps, and their deaths 1939-1953; the massive deportation within the Soviet Union of minorities 1941-1944; and their deaths; and those the Soviet Red Army and secret police executed throughout Eastern Europe after their conquest during 1944-1945 is omitted. Moreover, omitted is the deadly Ukrainian famine Stalin purposely imposed on the region and that killed 5 million in 1932-1934. So, Conquest’s estimates are spotty and incomplete. I did a comprehensive overview of available estimates, including those by Conquest, and wrote a book, Lethal Politics, on Soviet democide to provide understanding and context for my figures. I calculate that the Communist regime, 1917-1987, murdered about 62,000,000 people, around 55,000,000 of them citizens (see Table 1.1 for a periodization of the deaths). As for Stalin, when the holes in Conquest’s estimates are filled in, I calculate that Stalin murdered about 43,000,000 citizens and foreigners, over twice Conquest’s total. Therefore, the usual estimate of 20 million killed in Soviet democide is far off for the Soviet Union per se, and even less than half of the total Stalin alone murdered.
The old man knew the value of a yuan but his dreamer grandson Kublai needed to start at the bottom. (I've been reading the KFC thread.)
http://www.ibtimes.com/how-many-people-did-joseph-stalin-kill-1111789 In February 1989, two years before the fall of the Soviet Union, a research paper by Georgian historian Roy Aleksandrovich Medvedev published in the weekly tabloid Argumenti i Fakti estimated that the death toll directly attributable to Stalin’s rule amounted to some 20 million lives (on top of the estimated 20 million Soviet troops and civilians who perished in the Second World War), for a total tally of 40 million. ''It's important that they published it, although the numbers themselves are horrible,'' Medvedev told the New York Times at the time. ''Those numbers include my father.'' Medevedev's grim bookkeeping included the following tragic episodes: 1 million imprisoned or exiled between 1927 to 1929; 9 to 11 million peasants forced off their lands and another 2 to 3 million peasants arrested or exiled in the mass collectivization program; 6 to 7 million killed by an artificial famine in 1932-1934; 1 million exiled from Moscow and Leningrad in 1935; 1 million executed during the ''Great Terror'' of 1937-1938; 4 to 6 million dispatched to forced labor camps; 10 to 12 million people forcibly relocated during World War II; and at least 1 million arrested for various “political crimes” from 1946 to 1953. Although not everyone who was swept up in the aforementioned events died from unnatural causes, Medvedev’s 20 million non-combatant deaths estimate is likely a conservative guess. Indeed, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the literary giant who wrote harrowingly about the Soviet gulag system, claimed the true number of Stalin’s victims might have been as high as 60 million. Most other estimates from reputed scholars and historians tend to range from between 20 and 60 million. ... In any case, if the figure of 60 million dead is accurate that would mean that an average of 2 million were killed during each year of Stalin’s horrific reign – or 40,000 every week (even during “peacetime”). If the lower estimate of 20 million is the true number, that still translates into 1,830 deaths every single day. Thus, Stalin’s regime represented a machinery of killing that history – excluding, perhaps, China under Chairman Mao Tse-Tung -- has never witnessed. My note, jlprk's hero is responsible for 40,000 government caused deaths/murders a week for Stalin's entire reign. Compare to the death penalty in the USA, which has been exercised, in total, maybe 4,000 times since the 1930s.
Only 43 million? That's nothing. My calculator says 86 million. My calculator says that there were 88 million American Indians. Since there are now 1 million, white people killed 87 million of them. Beat 'cha.
Okay, so now it's 60 million? Already got it covered. You'll have to find a link to over 87 million. You'll find it.
Smallpox. Beat 'cha. White man seemed more interested in moving the indians from reservation to reservation than outright killing them all. At least for the first few centuries.
So Stalin is offically the biggest douche in history? Or are we all still going to go with Obama and/or Bush?
I just started reading this reddit thread and thought about you guys. If you dont know reddit, this is a fascinating place to start, if you do know reddit this is still a must read. Wow people are fucked up. http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/t0ynr/throwaway_time_whats_your_secret_that_could/
This thread needs an epic rap battle between Genghis Khan and the Easter Bunny. [video]http://youtu.be/WA4tLCGcTG4[/video]
No, but here's the main message of the book http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan_and_the_Making_of_the_Modern_World
The reason it surprises many of you to see Genghis Khan looked at highly is because you've only heard western history of the Mongol Empire.