Suspected Jihadists hack man to death in London

Read the Koran, then post.

 

I expected to read how a local chap handily dispatched the miscreant with his Walther but then I remembered Brits have no right to bear arms to defend themselves.

Guess they need to ban meat cleavers next.

 

If American Christians want people to believe they're not idiots, they shouldn't say things like this.

 

They actually beheaded the soldier on the street while chanting "Allah Ahkbar".

 

What is so wrong with saying BlazerWookee said? He did not say anything racist, mean derogatory or false. IF A then B. he is not saying they are in league with the terrorists, he is simply saying that if they want to make sure they are viewed in a good light they should condemn violence.

 

The government apparently manned the editing booth for the news outlet. They cut the part where the police arrived and shot them.

 

Vanilla Gorilla is a militant atheist who hates Christianity.

He's young, too, so take what he says with a grain of salt.

 

WTF is a militant atheist?

 

I am an atheist, so I don't think that's it.

 

Hardly a word about the victim, Brits must be cold-blooded.

 

Islam is a religion, the tenets of which sometimes inform various forms of government. There are four, maybe five, Islamic republics in the world. I'll give you a cookie if you can name them without looking.

Religion was quite literally not the hand that wielded the sword. Religion is a concept, not an active entity. I'm not going to let this go. You've got to be more specific. The whole point of me arguing this is because people are too often making sweeping generalizations about large swaths of humanity by attributing a culture, religion or philosophy with the characteristics of its more extreme members.

Pretty sure isn't good enough.

http://vridar.wordpress.com/2013/05/01/why-havent-muslims-condemned-terrorism/

Well I'm glad to know I wouldn't be welcomed in your community. I show no outward signs that I repulse terrorism. I don't hold bake sales for Americans killed by terrorists. I don't have a "Navy Seals 1, Bin Laden 0" bumper sticker. Hell, I don't even fly an American flag, so I definitely couldn't have put it at half mast on 9/11! And most troublesome, I have a beard, speak Arabic and once voted for Dennis Kucinich.

Oh but I'm white so you'll probably be fine with me. Green font? You decide.

I've read the Qur'an, nothing changes. Thinking Muslims have to kill infidels is like thinking Christians have to kill homosexuals or children who curse their parents.

Let's have a little perspective people.

 

What's wrong is that it implies that all Muslims do not condemn violence by default, and so to prove that they are "one of the good ones" they have to do the song and dance.

 

Both religions you compare, and pretty much all major organized religions preach hate and intolerance. By pledging their allegiance to the religion they accept responsibility for the resulting actions of their beliefs.

Hitler didn't personally kill 6 million people, but we still recognize not only his guilt but also the guilt of his soldiers and anyone who followed his orders.

 

well literally, only an actual hand wields the sword. But figuratively religion has been directly and indirectly the cause of millions of deaths throughout history.
Religion is more than a concept, it is a structure for living, it is a rule of law, it is actionable. If one desecrates the Qur'an or casts off their Muslim views and are publicly viewed doing so in some Islamic nations, they may be put to death. Just a concept? No. If you want to downgrade it to just a concept, than so is Nazism. Technically you may be able to call it a concept, but that concept is still the cause of millions of deaths. So no, I'm not interested in the semantics of the word "concept".

As far as making sweeping generalizations, I do not believe I am doing so. I have not said that you or peaceful Muslims are the same as the fringe. I have said its a good idea and a way to be honorable in a community to condemn violence, especially when that violence is attached to your religion by the extremists. If there is a rash of baptist going on shooting sprees in the name of their religion, i would expect the local baptist church to condemn the extremists associated with their religion. I would expect the baptist Parrish to march, have a bake sale, do something to show their community that they stand in unity with the community and not the extremists.

well how the hell am I suppose to see into the future and be positive about anything that has yet to happen? I think that's silly and you most likely argued that last bit because you were on a roll. If I'm wrong, let me know what you meant.

As I said, this is mainly about groups, organizations. You yourself, if you did not come out to publicly condemn it would not be bothersome to me. But I would hope that you would encourage whatever Islamic related organizations you belong to, to condemn violent acts by Islamic extremists. I honestly don't think that's a lot to ask. If you want to feel like a welcomed member of a community, then act as such. I am not saying you should be required by law, or that you should be spat on for not condemning violence. I'm simply saying that if you want to be viewed as belonging to a peaceful religion, you might need to educate those around you, because what's seen on the TV and Internet does not put Islam in the most peaceful light.

I'm sure for some, race might be an issue. It's not for me.





I do understand that it has to be annoying to be lumped into a group in the publics eye along with terrorists. And I emphasize with you, I can imagine the frustration of being considered akin to a killer when you have peace and love in your heart. But there is a real perception in our society, that links Islam with terror. That perception may be in part due to the press, the Christian social elite, the government and much more, but it is also due to the many terrorists that turn out to be Islamic. If you do not take up the charge of demonstrating the loving nature of your religion, than you can't really complain that the press, government, etc. has besmirched the Islamic religion. If the peaceful Muslims say nothing, their image will darken more and more over time. But if they speak up, and loudly condemn violence, than their image will brighten in society and you will be more accepted into the community and not feared.

Please do not take these words as a slander. They are a real attempt by me to live in the real world and not some utopian life where we always assume beauty and love first. Our society is full of all types of people, if I can do something to encourage partnership, I'll do so. I hope you would too.

 

Great! I fly out to London in 8 hours! RIPHCP

 

Sew a Mexican flag on your bags.

Oh wait,

Have the Mexicans come up with a flag?

 

Your argument here is pretty shallow and you're not taking reality into account. So yeah, keep on being your internet character.

I agree, but you're over simplifying it. Religion is usually the rallying cry that powerful people use to get those under them to enact violence in order to gain power, money and influence. This is the case with Islamic terrorism today.

It's still just a concept, no matter what you may feel about it. Every person may resist the concept, and they may receive punishment. It's still a concept. All actions taken are performed by humans.

Concepts are variable and they change and are fluid and dynamic. By animating and personifying Islam, you are setting it in stone and giving it a face it doesn't have in order to try and fight against it. But in reality, it is only in people's minds and can therefore not be destroyed. Ideas do not die so easily, but they can change.

Do you expect every intelligent, young, white, male, computer user to march and hold bake sales for the victims of Aurora and Newtown? If they didn't, would they not be good community members?

Yeah I don't get what you mean here. You said you'd be pretty sure if Muslims condemned terrorism in the news, and I gave you a link with tons of examples of that very thing.

Full disclosure: I'm an atheist and am 100% white-bred mutt. But I do have a beard, speak Arabic and have lived in the Middle East and North Africa. But, yeah. I don't belong to any Islamic groups. Honestly, I find practicing/preachy Muslims just as, if not more, irritating than their Christian counterparts.

Then we're in agreement! This is what I've been trying to do this whole time. Life story time: I started learning Arabic and studying this stuff because I felt that what people were saying about Muslims after 9/11 was bullshit, but I didn't know why. Ten years later and all I'm trying to do is to get people to see that the vast majority of Muslims are a. normal, decent people, and b., not the personification of what you may think their religion represents.

I appreciate your candor. I blame no one specifically for the image Islam has in American society. I think it's human nature to stereotype and generalize. I truly think this is all a matter of education. I've found over the last 10 years, the more you know about a topic, the more neutral you become. You see every side, and you see the complexity of life and it's really hard to take an extreme opinion when you consider all points of the spectrum. I'm just trying to educate people about some points in this argument they may not have considered.

And I do not think that if more Muslims spoke up about terrorism that people would have a better opinion of Islam. Plenty of Muslim groups and leaders have said that terrorism is against Islam, it runs counter to what the central tenets are (read the link I showed you before.) In fact, in response to 9/11, many Muslim leaders, in an effort to denounce the acts, called Islam "The religion of peace." And what do you have now? People (I'm looking at you, half of S2) using that as a pejorative way of denouncing the entire religion based on extremist acts.

No amount of denunciation from "the other side" will convince the public at large. The only thing that will change public perception is education. Ten years and two countries invaded later, and we still know very little about the religion, culture, language and society of the people we all have very strong opinions about.

 

I'm agnostic, but there is a faction of atheism that has their own belief system, and their own brand of proselytizing and showing bigotry.

 

Be sure and wear your mithril.