7. Shelden Williams, 6’9”, PF/C, 1983, Team: Chalon (France), College: Duke After struggling initially to find his spots in his first season of European competition, Williams has proven to be a very efficient player who can be a big time producer, averaging 15.5 points and 9.8 rebounds. He may never live down being selected over Rudy Gay, but his basketball IQ on both ends of the floor make him a very effective player. 44. Malcolm Thomas, 6’9”, PF/C, 1988, Team: Maccabi Tel-Aviv (Israel), College: San Diego State Very long and athletic, Thomas has NBA potential moving forward. He needs to put on a couple more pounds and learn to understand the game more, but under David Blatt’s tutelage, he is certainly on the right path.
Don't make me post Utah's roster. I swear to god I'll do it and then you'll never be able to look at your laptop screen again. You're playing with fire. Starting point guard John Luc . . .
I've seen Utah's roster. Has two european players on it. They're not helping them win. I know it's anecdotal, but here we have seen two euro players who played here and sucked (Rudy, Sergio) but were stars over there. And the reverse, a guy who pretty much sucked here and went over there and became "one of the most effective players" in their league. This implies to me that Farmer, for example, can excel there because the game is slower, the competition inferior, whatever.
It doesn't work like that though. For every story of player doing better in Europe you have, I can give you one of the reverse. Serge Ibaka couldn't get off the bench on Real Madrid. J.J. Hickson was cut from a second rate Israeli team. Ricky Rubio couldn't get off the bench for Barcelona. Kyle Singler is better on the Pistons than he was for Madrid. Actually I shouldn't have said one story for one story, because obviously, the NBA is better. I just think you have to take a broader look when making these types of evaluations. And in regarded to Madrid's backcourt, Rudy's per 40s are actually similar to what they were in the NBA. That guy wasn't horrible, he averaged between 8 and 10 his entire NBA career. He just was an idiot and so was never really given the keys to car, and he got paid more to return to Europe. I think Rodriguez could find a roster spot as a third string point guard. There are a ton of awful point guards in the NBA; the Mike James, Shelvin Mack, Maalik Waayns, Chris Smith, Darius Morris types. Almost every team has one of those.
My evaluation is simply that Euros play against Euros. The game is not the NBA, as you say it's better. I don't think it's even as good as college. Most of that top 50 list of americans over there are guys I never heard of. And sports agents recommend their D-League talent go over there because they get paid more. Seriously. When one of those guys shooting 80% from 3pt there comes over here and matches it, I'll be a convert.
No Euroleaguers are shooting 80%. Mirotic leads the league at 64.29 % but that's only on 14 attempts. He won't finish the season that high. Regardless, have you checked out Hollinger's work on translating Euroleague stats? So with Mirotic, if he sustains what he's done thus far this season, which you won't, he'd project around: Points per 36: 16.67 Rebounds per 36: 7.76 Assists per 36: 5.55 Shooting percentage: 55.6% PER: 26.11
How does that square with Rudy performing the same over there and over here? Think about it. Tyson Chandler looked like a monster when he played against high school kids. I remember as a rookie we were hearing stories about him making 3 pt shots in practice.
As I said, the NBA's worst teams are better than Euroleague's best. This said, anyone who thinks that NCAA Division I teams are better than Euroleague teams are mistaken. If you haven't heard of the American players who are excelling in Euroleague, you're probably not a big college basketball fan. Many of them were drafted (putting them in the top 1% of Division I players) and nearly all the others were 1st team all-conference (putting them in the top 4%) during their NCAA careers. In other words, former US college players who are having success overseas weren't just average NCAA players, they were exceptional NCAA players...and now they're grown-ass men.
... who couldn't make in the NBA. Which goes to the point that we have no idea if guys who play over there can make it in the NBA. It's not like I hope he doesn't pan out - quite the opposite. But if I were putting together the team, I wouldn't be sitting tight hoping he even comes over here let alone become a superstar to go next to Rose. In fact, I've come around to Reinsdorf paying the LT to the point I see him not amnestying Boozer after all. Mirotic might have to beat him out, which is no simple thing (Taj can't do it, for example).
As I said earlier, Mirotic is not a "can't miss" NBA player. Then again, it could be argued that the 2013 NBA draft didn't include any "can't miss" NBA players. Mirotic is excelling at a higher level of competition than NCAA Division I...at age 22. I believe that the Bulls will treat him as they would a non-project, high lottery pick, that is, plan on using him in the regular rotation year 1.
We're arguing like seven different things in this thread. The first is how an elite college team, like for example Michigan State, would do against Real Madrid. I think this is a non-issue. We can go back and forth about this making points based on logic but two minutes watching game tape is all it'd really take to convince you. Real has better athletes, schemes, size, and experience. It's a different caliber of ball. The next thing we're discussing is whether Real would fair better in the NBA than a franchise set on tanking, a Utah Jazz or Sacramento Kings like team. I think Real would do better than a bottom dwelling NBA franchise because your above statement is incorrect. There is a player on Real's roster who looks like a franchise center and was offered substantial money to come to the NBA, Ioannis Bourousis (3/12M from the Spurs), but stayed because of personal preference. There is a player on Real's roster, Rudy Fernandez, who had offers in the NBA and left for a bigger paycheck. There is a player on Real's roster, Nikola Mirotic, who is certainly welcome in the NBA but hasn't come over due to his contractual situation. There have been players on Real's roster in the past, like Kyle Singler in 2011-12 and Serge Ibaka during the lockout, who actually did better in the NBA than on the franchise. And there are sizable group of players on Real's roster who were drafted or could at some point in their careers worked their way onto the end of an NBA roster, but are making larger paychecks in Europe, Sergio Rodriguez, Marcus Slaughter, Jaycee Caroll, maybe Sergio Llull and Felipe Reyes. The third thing is how we should view Mirotic chances at success. I view Mirotic as a can't miss player, similar to how I viewed Emeka Okafor, Greg Oden and Anthony Davis. If Mirotic just does what he did in Europe, college for the comparisons, he will be successful in the NBA. I think it's worthwhile to note though that injuries can derail a career and a successful NBA player isn't synonymous with an allstar caliber player.
I think it's just guessing (educated, all be it) whether Euro teams are competitive with even our college teams. So I look for College teams that actually played against european teams. Seems Davidson did go overseas and played several teams. Davidson. Are they even ranked? Game #1 - Helios Domzale 95, Davidson 92 Game #2 - Davidson 80, Olimpija Ljubljana 67 Game #3 - Davidson 109, Rogaska 58 Game #4 - Davidson 128, Malnate 71 Game #5 - Davidson 101, Sondrio Select 46 Game #6 - Davidson 95, BM Italia Sondrio 45 I don't think we're particularly arguing about anything, but rather looking for ways to evaluate how good Mirotic might be if he played in the NBA. The "seven" things discussed are all along those lines, no? Like Hollinger's statistical analysis, or a comment by Memphis players after an exhibition game, or how great he looks in highlight films.
When I'm talking about European basketball I'm talking about the 25 teams or so who play in the Euroleague. Or more accurately probably like 23 of the 25 teams that play in Euroleague, because it seems like there are always a couple of teams that lose sponsorship shortly before the season begins and are out and out disasters. For that matter, weren't we comparing a marquis college team to Real Madrid, one of the premier franchises with around 40M in payroll? I've never heard of most of those teams Davidson played and I'd be surprised if they were actually professional clubs -- maybe something more akin to a city sports league, like City Boston Social Sports or Y league champions. I've heard of -- never seen -- Helios and Olimpija Ljubljana. I think Helios, the team that beat Davidson, is more of a local Slovian thing. I've seen the name Ljubljana but that's about it. How Davidson does against any of these teams doesn't really add anything to the conversation either way. I'll bet Madrid would be kings at the Highland Park YMCA too.
Exactly how good a team is La Bruixa d'Or? CB Valladolld? Bilbao Basket? Those are the teams Mirotic is making highlight videos against. I don't recognize any names on those rosters. Real Madrid drubs them. Local YMCA caliber?
So, you're looking at some teams from Spanish ACB League play. That's more hit or miss and those stats aren't included when people talk about stats in Euroleague. There's still some talent there though. I think there's a decent chance La Buxia d'Or Manresa forward/center Rasmuss Larsen is going to go late lottery or better: [video=youtube;5W0ybBGwPpg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W0ybBGwPpg[/video]
I'm looking at who you're watching Mirotic play against in the highlight reels. I've seen highlight reels of Hinrich at Kansas where he dunked in most of the plays shown. Didn't translate, at all, to the NBA. How many dunks has he had in his career? one?
Wait what? What highlights am I look at now? How 'bout now? Did you know that Doug Collins lost in the Olympics to Russia? Case closed.
Watch this one. Who are the end of bench (even) NBA caliber players he's playing against? http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cOLBDfKb5zM&desktop_uri=/watch?v=cOLBDfKb5zM
Another dimension for the discussion. Scouting reports. The DX and nabdraft.net ones are a year old. Or more. This is from June: http://www.blogabull.com/2013/6/21/4453002/nikola-mirotic-real-madrid-are-champs-of-acb-league Nate Duncan of The Team Rebound blog saw the performance in person, and he did an excellent write-up on the game along with a general scouting report of Mirotic. Duncan talked to several NBA peeps in the days before the game, and all of them said Mirotic would be a top-five pick in this year's draft, with one even saying he'd go No. 1 overall. In his scouting report, Duncan brings up the names of Ryan Anderson and Rashard Lewis as possible comparisons for Mirotic. Duncan finds the Lewis comparison more apt, as he views Mirotic as more of a combo forward and not a true 4 like Anderson. While some Bulls fans may be aiming higher, I certainly wouldn't be upset if Mirotic turned out like either of those guys. --- So both Anderson and Lewis are or were pretty good. Lewis was way overpaid, IMO. Would you start either over Boozer? Or Taj even? Maybe.
