What do you do with Hinrich?

Discussion in 'Chicago Bulls' started by kukoc4ever, Mar 7, 2015.

  1. transplant

    transplant Global Moderator Staff Member Global Moderator

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    For those keeping score, it looks like:

    - SST wants a change...pretty much any change.

    - Denny and K4E are staunch Thibodeau advocates.

    = TBF, rosenthal, Bullsville and I are kinda non-committal and focused on other stuff. I don't think good ol' bullsger

    If I missed anyone or mischaracterized, please speak up.
     
  2. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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    I think at its core is that there are people who think that Thibs should not be fired / let go. He's not the problem.

    He's a real asset and Gar Pax are middling front office talents at best. If anyone should go, they should. I think you'll find this sentiment expressed in other parts of the internet as well.

    They should back the f*** off and stop being such controlling nincompoops. They should not fire Ron Adams. They should not control minutes from on high. They should let one of the better coaches around coach the team and thank their lucky stars that Uncle Jerry gives them checks twice a month since they would not be getting as many phone calls as Thibs on the open market.

    Thibs is a strong enough guy that he can flip those dopes the bird and know he'll get work. Sure, I can put up with Pax if I get to coach MVP Rose and have a legit shot at a title, but if these jackasses continue to f*** with me, I can find work elsewhere.

    And that's where this is heading. The typical management-fed media smear is underway and many are lapping it up. Its not really worth getting that worked up over.

    In the end, unless Rose's knee stays healthy and he gets back to at least all-star form, this team isn't going to win the title no matter who the coach is.

    If I were Thibs, I'd pick Anthony Davis over Derrick Rose in a heartbeat right now. And maybe I'll even get to pick my own assistant coaches and not get smeared if I don't allocate minutes like suit n tie guys that could not even handle the heat of answering questions at press conferences anymore want to dictate.


    ---

    The real problem is Rose's knee and that contract. This Bulls team has only had one legit run at the title with a complete, healthy roster and they got to the conference finals and lost to Lebron's Heat. And that was years ago. This season is kind of a mess since everyone is hurt, the roster hasn't clicked and Rose isn't anywhere close to his old self. What a mess.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2015
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  3. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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    I want the Bulls to have a very good NBA head coach. I think they have one now. He's really good at motivating players, a good Xs and Os guy and gets the most out of the players for the most part. He gets guys paid since they tend to play really well under him.

    If they can find and are willing to pay a better one, go for it.

    Pop gets mentioned a lot. That would be a guy that would seem like an upgrade, although when is the last time Pop has had to deal with the roster instability that Thibs has put up with the last few years?

    The thing is, he's considered one of the best coaches in the league right now, so there are not many obvious upgrades. And Bulls management is smearing him.
     
  4. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    We're not replacing a Vinnie Del Negro here. We're replacing a coach who's won a championship and whose regular season record as head coach is unsurpassed by any coach in history.

    The any coach in history part suggests Hoiberg would have to be better than all the rest of the coaches in history to match Thibs' record.

    The grass simply isn't greener.
     
  5. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Brilliant.
     
  6. transplant

    transplant Global Moderator Staff Member Global Moderator

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    I've done this before and may need to do it again. Thibodeau has a NBA championship ring as an assistant coach, not a head coach. Lots of assistants who you wouldn't want anywhere near the head coaching position for your favorite team have rings.
     
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  7. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Hire Vinnie.
     
  8. rosenthall

    rosenthall Well-Known Member

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    Hmmmm.........

    To the topic of the thread: Captain Kirk isn't getting more than 20 mpg these days, even with our ultra thin roster. Can we all agree that's a good thing?

    On Thibs' management: No complaints during this recent spell. We're missing 3 of our top 6 guys. Any roster in the league would be razor thin with those kinds of injuries. 'To Cam or Not to Cam?' was a relevant question in the OT game, but whaddya gonna do?

    On Bairstow: One of the reasons I like Cam is that I think he has good potential as a +/- end of bench guy. He's not talented enough to get big minutes, but I remember when he started the Denver game he seemed to grasp the defensive schemes much better than the other rookies, hit his jumpers, and stuck with Faried pretty well.

    Remember the Skiles years when he would randomly clear out the end of the bench and roll with those Duhon/Piatkowski/Othella Harrington/Lawrence Funderburke lineups that made you wince when they entered the game but actually seemed to work half the time? Cam strikes me as one of those types of guys.

    On Hoiberg: I'm sure he has a very good basketball acumen and I'll give him a fair shake if he gets hired, but I prefer to use the pre-cautionary principle when it comes to getting rid of Thibs. Yes, he has his worts, but I think his 5 year body of work is about as good as any coach in the league. The only season when you might have doubts is this one.

    If you play the odds Hoiberg is more likely to be the next Del Negro than the next Thibs. I'll stick with the Devil we have, thank you.

    And I'm also uncomfortable with the fact that Hoiberg seems to be an organization guy. I get the impression he's in the closed-network loop that the Bulls FO operates through, which makes me think Pulling Rank might be one of the ulterior motives behind getting rid of Thibs, if it happens.
     
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  9. rosenthall

    rosenthall Well-Known Member

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    And for the record, I'm probably in the 'Keep Thibs around' camp.

    However, my big doubt is what goes on behind the scenes between the players and Thibs. He's always seemed to have their ear, but there seem to be a few rumblings in the tea leaves that make you think that might not be the case anymore. But it's hard to say since that doesn't get talked about very much and gets lost in the GarPax/Thibs cacophony, which means very little to me.

    Thibs came to the Bulls w/ an MVP Derrick Rose playing for a big contract + a bunch of grinders. Then we just got a team full of grinders once he got injured. I think it's entirely plausible that Thibs' style might be best suited for teams in need of an identity, rather than vet teams that are playing for a championship and are set in their ways, which is why we've underperformed this year.
     
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  10. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    As usual, two great posts in a row by rosenthall. Always a good read.
     
  11. rosenthall

    rosenthall Well-Known Member

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    I don't want to speak for him, but I get the impression Bullsville wants Thibs gone.
     
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  12. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    It's a dicey situation for Thibs and his being able to relate to the players. If there is a feud between the not-so-intelligent management we have and the brilliant coach, the players are put in the middle. Who do they choose: the ones who pay their paychecks or the one they see and work with on a daily basis?

    I'd think he's been selling the players on "hard work and grind plus talent wins championships" and they see the lack of talent or the talent being limited in minutes by management. Reggie tweeted about it and got some heat over it.
     
  13. rosenthall

    rosenthall Well-Known Member

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    Can you reference this tweet? Sincerely curious.
     
  14. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    I guess it wasn't a tweet, but still...

    http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/stor...rose-brother-says-no-trades-big-factor-return

    Reggie Rose rips Bulls' inactivity

    CHICAGO -- Derrick Rose's brother and manager, Reggie Rose, said Thursday that the franchise hasn't put enough quality players around the Chicago Bulls star to win a championship and that could be a "big factor" in whether he returns this season from a knee injury.

    Reggie Rose said he was speaking for himself and not his brother.

    "What have you pieced together? Have you made any moves? Have you made any trades to get better? You know all roads to the championship lead through Miami," Reggie Rose told ESPNChicago.com. "What pieces have you put together for the physical playoffs?

    "Joakim Noah is a great player. Luol Deng is a great player. But you need more than that. You have to put together pieces to your main piece. The players can only do so much. It's up to the organization to make them better."

    The Bulls, who stood pat at Thursday's trade deadline, issued a statement from Derrick Rose on Thursday evening.
     
  15. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    And there's this gem from the same article:

    Reggie Rose, who attended Thursday's game at the United Center, said the Bulls have known all along Rose could sit out this season, but the organization hasn't mentioned it because it would affect ticket sales.

    "Everyone is expecting Derrick to come back," Reggie Rose said. "If Derrick comes back, they're going to sell more tickets. Is the reason for Derrick to come back to win a championship or make money? Right now, I don't believe a championship. Everything in the NBA is financial."
     
  16. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Another gem from a similar article

    http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports....her-rips-bulls-for-trade-deadline-inactivity/

    Those fans were out talking on Wednesday when the Bulls did nothing at the trade deadline. We had them listed among our losers because they neither got better or got under the tax line, they just stood pat. The Bulls were linked to conversations with the Magic about J.J. Redick but reportedly were concerned they would have to re-sign the free agent sharpshooter next summer and that would send them over the luxury tax line. And this season will be the first time ever the Bulls have paid any tax. They didn’t want to add any salary short or long term.

    (boo hoo?)
     
  17. kukoc4ever

    kukoc4ever Let's win a ring! Staff Member Moderator

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    OK, just to update the camps.

    The F*** Thibs / "Thidiot" camp

    SST, Bullsville

    The Keep Thibs camp

    K4E, DaBullz, Rosenthall

    Focused on other matters camp.

    TBF, Transplant
     
  18. transplant

    transplant Global Moderator Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Do you folks really believe that this current roster is a low-talent bunch? As you might guess, I think this is a very talented team.
     
  19. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Talent unrealized.

    But other teams are talentd, too. Some more so, and some with better players playing up to their potential.
     
  20. such sweet thunder

    such sweet thunder Member Staff Member Moderator

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    :-) I'm in the "fuck Thibs" camp but definitely not the "Thidiot" camp. I'll take Thibodeau in late game situations over just about anyone. Brian Scalabrine had some interesting insights on Thibs while announcing a Bulls-Celtics game earlier this year. Apparently, Thibodeau does all of the advanced prep and team presentations for opponents himself, whereas every other coach in the league delegates the tasks to various members of their staffs. Most coaches delegate on the belief that players will tune out a guy if they have to hear form him every day, and that different people will take away different things, so assigning multiple people to a task will bring fresh perspectives. That's Thibs in a nutshell to me. It both explains how Thibodeau regularly outflanks opposing coaches in late game situations, and why he's struggled so much the past few season dealing with just about everybody.

    I think Thibodeau has lost this team, and if it isn't all the way gone right now, he will have completely lost it nest season. I also blame Thibs for the Rose injury to an extent. Even more so, I blame Thibs for his inability to make adjustments and learn anything from the injury.

    I think Thibodeau is a bad judge of talent and relies too much on his particular experience with a player. I think he deserves way more than half the blame for the sorry point guard play this season. Gar Foreman drafted the bust Marquis Teague, but Thibodeau was the one who insisted on playing Mike James the last few years instead of looking toward a real third-string option. It was also Thibodeay who asked for Brooks this off season, plays Hinrich way too many minutes and refuses to try Moore at point.

    I also don't like his offenses. He seems to like installing new sets before every opponent when possible. I think that's a neat way in theory to build a comprehensive non-set based approach to offensive play (so many plays you eventually are based around concepts) but he always seems to get less production than he should, and it only gets worse in the playoffs.

    Lastly, while I admit it's always a crap shoot, I find Fred Hoiberg to be a very shiny coaching prospect. He was a solid pro who would have been a star if he wasn't a little ahead of his time, and didn't have his career derailed by heart concerns. He coached a season in the NBA and has a number of years working in a front office. I don't watch college ball close enough to have a feel for his coaching style, but his teams always seem to do better than they should. He runs pro offenses, and has succeeded with Royce White who was discarded by a number of NBA teams. That makes for an interesting prospect to me.
     

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