I wouldn't have put Herzog in there either. I have no idea what the veterans committee looks at when making these decisions http://www.baseball-reference.com/managers/herzowh01.shtml
Doesn't matter. Herzog IS IN which means Martin is getting screwed....and BELONGS. If anything, Martin should've been there first.
I know Herzog's managerial record and accomplishments - I already listed his total WINS, WIN% and championship. I also cited Martin's managerial record, accomplishments and championship. Did you see the part which noted him taking FOUR different franchises to a first place finish? Something for them to sink their teeth into.
Of the 10 modern day managers currently in the HOF 6 of them have won over 2000 games. Of the other 4 Tommy Lasorda 1,599 - 1,439 = .529 winning% won 4 pennants & 2 WS Earl Weaver 1,480 - 1,060 = .583 the highest winning % of the 10. Won 4 pennants & 1 WS. Dick Williams 1,571 - 1,451 = .520 winning %. Won 4 pennants & 2 WS Whitey Herzog 1,281 - 1,125 = .532 winning %. Won 3 pennants & 1 WS IF Martin were to get in he would do so with the least amount of victories 1,253 - 1,013 = .553 winning % with 2 pennants & 1 WS. Like I said IMO Herzog doesn't belong & nor would Martin.
Those Yankee Kansas City Teams played on a gas tank. I heard Brett state on more than one occasion that the Yankees and Royals hated each other. Ironic that Herzog lost all three playoff series as KC manager, then lost to KC in '85 returning as the visitor.
And, Martin has a higher win % than all of them except Weaver, and won as many championships as Weaver and Herzog and.....Herzog is IN which makes the comparison with him totally relevant, and.........Martin accomplished something NONE of them ever did managing four different franchises to first place. Like I said, I still believe Martin belongs in the HOF. We're not going to change each other's minds so I guess we leave it at that.
...don't know is he's a HOFer or not but as a manager, I seem to remember Martin making an impact on every team he coached. His players respected him.
Now THAT! I'll agree with you. The day he pulled Reggie from the field I gained a lot of respect for him as a manager. And its that kind of fire & those kind of balls that's lacking today.
Rick, I remember watching that game live on Saturday TV...and I recall Ellie getting in between Reggie and Billy. Reggie would have destroyed Martin...but you know Billy. he didn't care...and would gladly punch a locomotive if he had a mind to. Those late 70's Yanx teams, the early 70's A's and others, were great teams that despite the fact that they didn't particularly like each other, they still managed to put their differences aside long enough to kick the shit out of their opponents.
To say those teams of the mid/late 70s left everything on the field would be a major under statement. The toughest "take no prisoners" team I ever saw.
Simply put Martin took no shit from anyone, It's not the size of the dog in the fight it's the size of the fight in the dog, Martin had plenty of moxie. There were a lot of hardnosed tough players on those late '70s Yankee Team and it took a tough guy to manage. And many a player admired Marin for his "Baseball Mind" and being mentored by "Casey" was a huge plus as well. Even as much as I admired Billy Martin I'm not sure about HOF but I would not bitch if he got in, his number is retired and placed among the Yankee Greats and he most certainly deserved that.
I admired that particular action as well. A buddy of mine (Pirates Fan) always said that Bonds was a total JO, despite his numbers he could not get that big moment. Still remember his nability to throw out Tugboat Bream in that playoff game. Leyland had sac, took no shit as well.
I was a huge Bonds fan only because as a Giants fan I loved watching his father play but honestly I loved it when he got in Barry's face. Showed me a lot. Today's players seem to get a pass way to often. I mean can you imagine what Martin would have done to someone like Cano watching his skip to 1st base on a ground ball.
Don't forget the playoff "bunting incident" where Martin called on Reggie to bunt and when Reggie failed in his first attempt - and continued with two strikes when the green light was taken off..... It didn't go over too well with Martin. Martin was a scrappy player trying to hold his job, he once lead the league in sac bunts, even made the allstar team once, he knew what it took took for role players to "hang around" and help the team....played on championship teams and performed well in the WS. He played under a MGR (Casey) who wasn't afraid to go against the grain and "the book".....lol, Casey was too busy writing his own "book". Billy was very influential in many ways.....he took heat for offering the opinion about Latin players from the " islands" when he said "most of them are first pitch fastball hitters"..... He didn't and wasn't intending any offense since it's become common knowledge amoung those players when they jokingly said/say: You don't "walk" off the island. He personally went to see Ron Lefore in prison and was instrumental in getting him to play MLB...... He personally instructed Zoilo Versailles, telling him he can be a good player and he eventually won the MVP in the upcoming season. Martin wasn't a favorite (to say the least) amoung umpires and PC sports writers. It got to the point where the head of the Umps actually tried to convince MLB to prevent Billy from arguing with the Umps during the game... lol.......more than once I saw Martin actually correct THOSE umpires regarding rules and regulations. Ironically, Martin took over a Texas Ranger team which had finished LAST the previous year under WHITEY HERZOG and brought them to a 2nd place finish with 84 wins. Yep, he had off field incidents, had a short fuse which was probably shorter when he had a few drinks which is why he'll probably never ever get considered for the HOF......One of the best things about Martin, which was the last of the "old school" mgrs, he wasn't afraid to get in the face of players he thought were willingly underperforming.
...lol, Sid Bream, possibly the slowest white man I ever saw...in retrospect, he should been pinch-run for in the first place. ...being from Georgia, I was watching that game too. (the Yanx were not very good then)...the whole state was nuts about the Braves back then. ...still blows my mind that after getting blown out at home in the first 2 games of the '96 Series, the Yanx rebounded to beat Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, and Avery in succession to win the WS.
Very gratifying as a Yankee fan to watch the Yanks' beat those Braves' teams two out of two in the WS - winning 8/10 games.
...Bobby Cox had a huge role in blowing the '96 Series. The Yanx were down 5-3 in the 8th inning and about to go down 3 games to 1 in the Series...Leyritz hits a tying HR...then in the 10th with 2 out and Yankee runners on 1st and 2nd, Cox inexplicably intentionally walks Bernie to get to Andy Fox...Torre pinch hits Boggs for Fox...Boggs walks, the eventual winning run scores and the Yanx go on to win the Series. ...I recall watching that game with a fellow Yankee fan and we could not believe Cox would intentionally move the go ahead to 3B !...a week or so later that same friend and I sat at the bar and counted up the different ways a runner can score from 3B with the bases loaded...I wanna say we finally tallied 13-14 different ways. ...Cox got out-managed in that Series.
