http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leoname01.html Here is a basketball reference site for him. Look at his on court +- for each year. 3 years ago when he was trying to play center he was - 11.6 Last year after moving to PF he went to + 1.2 This year he has progressed to +2.2 That is what i mean by not really 4 years.
That one is HIGHLY debatable. Can you elaborate? Numbers are decent, but his mental mistakes are not. If this is his ceiling, then he's no better than an Okur or a Hawes. I hope he can prove me wrong, but I still have my doubts.
As has been pointed out, +/- is a team number more than an individual number... the only way to discern if it's individual is looking at box scores over a period of time to see where the individual lies within the people on the court. Trust me, I tried using +/- on other players, but that's always the retort.. unfortunately, it's true. I just don't know if this is his ceiling.... or if he could be a Center, or just a stretch 4 with a slow release and a timid shot.
I'm not sure why but when Meyers is put on a strong center he seems to play his ass off defensively and is more engaged offensively, not passing up open 3's, but if its a more athletic center he has problems again. If we played Boogie every night Meyers would be a decent center.
I acknowledge that Vonleh is young, and shows physical gifts that indicate he should be a power forward that makes it in this league. But to make it, he has to show progress. Here's his numbers for his two years in the league: Noah Vonleh: 2015 - PER: 13.2, MP: 10.4, Pt/36: 11.5, Rb/36: 12.0, Bl/36: 1.3, PF/36: 2.8, TS%: 47.5% 2016 - PER: 8.3, MP: 15.9, Pt/36: 8.4, Rb/36: 9.3, Bl/36: 0.6, PF/36: 4.7, TS%: 45.5% I think the Blazers have given him ample time to progress. His numbers don't look anything like progress. I'd call that regression. Compared to Leonard's last two years - Meyers Leonard: 2015 - PER: 14.8, MP: 15.4, Pt/36: 13.9, Rb/36: 10.6, Bl/36: 0.6, PF/36: 4.8, TS%: 63.1% 2016 - PER: 11.4, MP: 21.9, Pt/36: 13.8, Rb/36: 8.4, Bl/36: 0.4, PF/36: 4.9, TS%: 56.3% It looks to me like Meyers Leonard has plateaued. He is what he is. A solid rotational player that has good usage in certain types of match ups. I think Leonard has earned the opportunity to get more minutes. Vonleh has not demonstrated to me that he is making enough progress to warrant starting, let alone taking up minutes of a player that is performing at a higher level than he is (Leonard). If this was a throw away year, maybe I could see continuing to start Vonleh. But since the Blazers are in the thick of the playoff race, I think we need to start and play our best players. In my opinion, Leonard is our best option at PF/C to complement the skills of our other starting big, Plumlee.
I think, and maybe I missed it in your words (I did read it all), why are we comparing Vonleh's first two years (the first of which, he hardly played), and Leonards LAST two years? Wouldn't a better comparison be the first two years of both?
I think the key is to look at the here and now. At this point in the season, and the situation we are currently in (playoff hunt), we need to start focusing on who can give us the biggest bang for the buck. I think Leonard is that guy. If Vonleh showed huge progress year-over-year, and indicated that he's going to turn the corner and help us push into the playoffs, then sure. But I don't see that from him this year.
Oh, that makes sense. I didn't glean that off of the original post. Yeah, Vonleh is not ready yet. The lesser of two evils is definitely Leonard.
Vonleh has only shown anything on the defensive end. He's quite good (considering age, experience) at covering his man, and fairly good at help defense. But that is the full extent of his game at this point. Meyers has shown flashes on both ends of the court. Obviously he's best known for the offensive end - where the results are still mixed. But regardless, he's still able to impact the game on offense whereas Vonleh has never made an offensive impact. But Meyers has also shown flashes on the defensive end - again, with varied degrees of success/failure. But he does have some ability to play both ends of the floor...whereas Vonleh doesn't. It's no contest at this point - Meyers is a superior player. Vonleh looks like a child in a man's game, except for the rare occasion when his man gets the ball in the post.
That might be the first time someone has ever said "Meyers is a superior player" But then it is Vonleh, whose raw as hell, so it's not much of an endorsement.
I don't know that I buy that Vonleh is "raw" anymore. Raw players generally tend to make a few plays - and even full games - from time to time that show you what they might become. Granted I haven't watched every single game this season, but I've never seen Vonleh do something that makes me get excited that we have a diamond in the rough. A lesser version of David West? Perhaps - if he improves massively.
True, it could be my hopefulness coming out, but I say if I don't see massive improvement by this next year it'll be a lost cause. I guess I just get frustrated at someone like Tunchi who is always so quick to say someone sucks, without giving them a chance. I waited almost 4 years before I was on Meyers. People just need some time.
