OT Sell me on a better plan

Discussion in 'Blazers OT Forum' started by Orion Bailey, Jan 19, 2020.

  1. Road Ratt

    Road Ratt King of my own little world

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    Zero integrity. We all know that too many politicians in both parties work directly for their special interest groups, donors, billionaires, and more specifically... wall street over main street. Fact is, Trump is currently humping hard for his friends and donors right now, and we all know it. In doing so, they are literally not working for Americans, nor America.

    Every president beyond Jimmy Carter has been a traitor to America.

    Both parties literally told the world back in the 80's that America is no longer holding legitimate races for POTUS. And it is exactly what we see playing out nowadays.

    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-10-08-me-2852-story.html

    Edit: This probably wasn't what you were looking for yet again. But you did ask why.

    Due to my aspergers I don't argue quite like everyone else. I see very little point in debating with anyone over what I see as semantics when the root core of the problem is the corruption in congress. Take away the corruption, you take away most of America's current problems... period. (just a general statement, not directed at anyone)
     
  2. oldfisherman

    oldfisherman Unicorn Wrangler

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    How did you post this from a rotary phone?

    Not all new ideas and fresh people are bad.
     
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  3. calvin natt

    calvin natt Confeve

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    it’s impossible for me to respond to you with answers to your questions because anyone who says (basically) “yeah he’s morally bankrupt but I still need a reason”, is not worth even debating. He’s a “cancer” to our society but you still need reasons? Fuck that.
     
  4. Stevenson

    Stevenson Old School

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    OK, @Orion Bailey, here's what I have to say:

    If you want peace, prosperity, and social progress, you would vote Democratic.

    And I can prove it to you:

    The Clinton years, the 90s, gave us that. No war, and balanced budget to boot (due to a budget that every Republican voted against.) He gave W. a surplus. W. not only wasted that surplus on a silly tax cut for the rich, but when we were attacked by Al Qaeda, W invaded the wrong country, Iraq, giving us two endless wars.

    The GOP wastes money and gets us into war. Every time.

    In addition, W was horrible during Katrina, and when the world economy was on the brink of collapse, it took the incoming Obama admin to make the hard calls, save the auto industry, bail out the banks, and keep us out of a depression. Obama also gave us Obamacae, which despite its faults, is popular and keeps millions insured. Yes, his economic recovery was tepid, but at least we slowed down Iran's building of a bomb by 15 years - Trump's policy ended it at 5 years.

    Aside from Trump's obvious and deep personal and political flaws, what do we have? Attacking our allies, N. Korea closer to a bomb, Iran closer to a bomb, NATO in disarray, xenpohobia and anti-semitism on the rise at home. Yes, no doubt the economy is strong, but the deficit is crazy big now and the GOP no longer stands for anything that it used to - fiscal constraint, strong defense, respect for tradition, prudence. The GOP loves Russia now for crying out loud.

    With the Republicans, you always get budget busting and wars, because that's where their profit is. Dems fix the problems the GOP make.

    With a Democrat, you would get expanded health care options (but no, no medicare for all, that would never pass.) You would get a more normal alliance driven foreign policy, Putin in check, leaders would not laugh at the president in summits, the rich would be taxed more, consumers would be given more of a voice, the middle class would truly be the concern, not the richest of the rich, bigots, anti-semites, and racists would not be called “very good people on the other side.”

    And of course, and not least, climate change would be given the urgent priority that it requires.

    Sounds 1000% better to me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
  5. oldmangrouch

    oldmangrouch persona non grata

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    What's bad is the "hero on a white horse."

    Embrace the fact that many (if not all) of our problems are like being diabetic. They can't be cured, but they can be treated. You can do all the little, individually imperfect things needed to manage the problem - or you can look for someone who claims there is a simple, perfect solution. Say...someone who wants to spend $40 Billion on a wall that serves no practical purpose other than giving coyotes something to lift their leg on.
     
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  6. oldfisherman

    oldfisherman Unicorn Wrangler

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    Everytime?

    It was dem presidents that took us into WW1, WW2, Korea, and Vietnam the worst 6 years of my life.

    Plus it was a dem president that has done something no one else has done. Drop a nuclear bomb on a city.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
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  7. Stevenson

    Stevenson Old School

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    Good point. So let’s just say in the last 60 years.

    But what about the substance of my argument?
     
  8. hoopsjock

    hoopsjock Well-Known Member

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    Bloomberg is airing commercials right now that he's never accepted a penny from special interest groups. Not sure if it's true or not and know nothing about his campaign but I thought that was a good thing to "claim."
     
  9. BlazerWookee

    BlazerWookee UNTILT THE DAMN PINWHEEL!

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    Fuck the division. Fuck the 9ers. Go Chiefs!
     
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  10. yankeesince59

    yankeesince59 "Oh Captain, my Captain".

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    No problem, man...we're good.
     
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  11. oldfisherman

    oldfisherman Unicorn Wrangler

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    Darn, forgot which century I was in.

    "Hero on a rainbow unicorn"
     
  12. oldfisherman

    oldfisherman Unicorn Wrangler

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    I'll try to be as nice as I can.

    Your argument takes selected bits of info, from one side, much of which is very debatable.

    Both parties are guilty of this type of misinformstion campaign.

    I believe that half the truth, is a whole lie.

    Now, OB asked for future plans, not a history lesson. What do you have?
     
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  13. Stevenson

    Stevenson Old School

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    I gave OB a thoughtful, factual answer. That is how I see things. You think it's half truth and debatable? OK, then prove it. Let's see you spend a half an hour crafting a factual answer.

    What do you have?
     
  14. Hoopguru

    Hoopguru Well-Known Member

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    Okie Dokie, here's a few objective action tactics from a libertarian's point of view.
    1- implement an objective measurable plan, to balance the budget.
    2- Reduce the size of government through consolidation of agencies or getting rid of certain ones all together. You cant convince me they all are justified by their existence.
    3- Promote and pass congressional term limits that make since. 12 years or so.
    4- Bring troops home from Afghanistan and middle east. Keep sea and air presence where needed.
    5-Continue to allow corp. tax breaks that allow US mfg's to be competitive.
    6-Have a progressive tax structure that makes since to support a smaller leaner government.
    7- An effort to change and make equally fair appointments SCJ's. Have equal representation. 15 year term limits if possible.
    8. Evaluate and improve where needed all trade agreements.
    9.Continue to expect other countries to pull their weight in support of NATO and UN. We don't need finance alone all the efforts.
    10.Push and require congress with timeline, to come up with immigration plan and security measures.
    11.Create a bipartisan effort to bring the cost of health care and RX down. A balanced approach.
    12.Allow States more autonomy with regards, to certain laws pot, guns, abortion ect.
    13. Keep America a capitalistic country and protect personal liberty, allow States more power, encourage human enterprise and help citizens from becoming dependent of welfare.

    Just a few and obviously have missed some good ones i'm sure.
     
  15. oldfisherman

    oldfisherman Unicorn Wrangler

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    You did a very good job, a well written thoughtful response. But...

    You keep asking me questions your not going to like the answers to.. I don't want a war with you, I enjoy your opinions. But again you asked for it.

    Yes, Clinton did balance the budget, but, Obama followed that up by doubling the national dept.

    Just one example of half truths about our prosperity.

    My opinion. Judging prosperity timelines is a murky job. Most actions carry over to future presidents, sometimes for decades.

    Often presidents move away from campaign promises and behave like their opponent. Based on who they owe favors to.

    Often outside uncontrollable events have the biggest affect on short term prosperity.

    Bottom line concerning prosperity. I don't think it matters which party our president belongs to.
     
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  16. oldfisherman

    oldfisherman Unicorn Wrangler

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    Like it. Have one to add.

    I agree with the dems the national minimum wage needs to increase. Not only has it failed to improved the living conditions of entry level job workers. It has failed to keep up with inflation.
     
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  17. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    Really? So please explain why not worthy of debating. Do you know for a fact the Dems candidate is not morally bankrupt?

    How do I know the alternative isn't a BIGGER cancer?

    I'm sorry, but in life and in warfare most would rather deal with the enemy they know, than the one they don't know. If you aren't willing to provide an alternative option, ideology, then how can I take you serious? Id prefer to go with the evil I know, than the one I don't.

    so your stance is....I told you he is morally corrupt and if you vote for him you are ******, but yet you aren't willing to offer an alternative to vote for?

    Come on man...I've read enough of you to know you are more intelligent than this stance you are taking.

    Many people think Jimmy Carter was corrupt and he was a Dem. Should
    I then check history and anyone who voted for Jimmy has major morality issues and is not worth the time to explain anything at all? Did you vote for Carter?


    Your stubbornness is not helping anything at all, whether you think so or not. Sorry.
     
  18. calvin natt

    calvin natt Confeve

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    im not “telling you he’s morally bankrupt”. You know it and stated it and he has shown it as FACT. But you need reasons still. We all have demons and no one is perfect, none of the candidates. But if you think they are the same as him, then debating and convincing is pointless because your starting point is so off-kilter that we will not ever agree. This is like someone (to me) saying “my wife has sex with my neighbor but I still need a reason to be with someone else”. No. No you don’t. She has given you enough reason. If you think that reason isn’t enough, what use is it to me to sell you on “well, she does spend a little too much at Nordstrom and she tends to run late when you go out”. This man has done enough, so much, that if you are still waiting to he sold on someone else, I’m not convinced you actually want to be convinced. This is like when ABM asked this question three months ago and everyone came back with their answers and he was like “nah, not working, he is still my guy”. Total waste of Fucking time.
     
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  19. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    Whoa whoa whoa. Who said I need reason still to prove he is immoral? I never said or asked that.

    The wife thing is not valid, because i would leave and be single We cant leave the office empty. Apples to oranges. Im not goign to vote for a Dem just because the current pres lacks morals when I don't know who the dems have to offer up and have nothing to platform on other than Trump is immoral. If you dont get that, them im sorry.

    In your analogy, the ship is evil and we need to leave, but we don't have a ship to leave to. Do you leave the ship and enter space to just die, or know the ship is evil, but wait for a livable alternative?


    Anyhow., Not going down this road with you. If you arent willing to provide some insight as to why the Dems should be voted for that doesn't include Trump is bad, then you have nothing for me and I have nothing for you.
    But lets remember who was the one asking for knowledge and who was the one that denied it because.. FUCK THAT!.... and which stance will get us further in improving our country.....
     
  20. calvin natt

    calvin natt Confeve

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    You have to have a moral compass before I can point you in the right direction.
     
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