Exclusive I'm not sold on Dame/Ant

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by Natebishop3, Feb 8, 2022.

  1. RR7

    RR7 Well-Known Member

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    I'm ok with lillard and simons doing the heavy lifting in our half court sets, and the rest of the guys being the ones who get out and run. Let them be the secondary break for 3.
     
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  2. STOMP

    STOMP mere fan

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    Can anyone name a legit contender from the last 30 years that paired two guards as small as Dame and Ant? I think the CJ/Dame Blazers were probably the closest to that status, but never once thought they were a legit contender. It's obviously not ideal to have your two best players be 6'2 190 lb PGs but here we are.

    With their contracts, Ant can't be traded until this January while Dame can't be moved until next summer. If Portland test drives this obvious mismatch for 2 more seasons as you say they should, Dame will be 35 and likely very close to done. The choice will have been made to stand pat. Since I want my team to win championships not just games, I hope they've moved one or the other for pieces and timelines that fit together by the start of next season.

    STOMP
     
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  3. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    well, yeah....that's the same argument that's been made over and over in this thread, and not everybody accepts it...that obvious. Problem with that argument is that nobody can come up with any realistic reason trading one of them would make Portland a contender any sooner than keeping both, although the closest argument would be trading Ant for a major upgrade at forward
     
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  4. RR7

    RR7 Well-Known Member

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    GS last year paired curry and Poole the majority of the year. Year before, jrue and divincenzo.
    People are currently fawning over Cleveland with garland and Mitchell.
    Milwaukie this year is 9-1, and starting Javon Carter alongside jrue.
    Utah was a #1 seed just 2 years ago with Conley and Mitchell.
    I know you insist he hasn't, but simons definitely looks to have grown since his rookie y3ar when comparing him next to some teammates. Even the slightest growth has him as a comparable size to booker as well.
     
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  5. PtldPlatypus

    PtldPlatypus Let's go Baby Blazers! Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator

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    Problem is that our forwards now play defense and shoot 3's, and each hit game winners in the past week, so there aren't many forwards out there that are "major upgrades".
     
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  6. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    true, at least not any that would be traded for Ant.
     
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  7. illmatic99

    illmatic99 formerly yuyuza1

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    yes it's anecdotal, but we saw the value of having two guys (four if you include JG/JH) who can pass/dribble/shoot just yesterday. dame is covered/trapped/or has bigs switched onto him, we reversed the ball to the other wing and let Ant cook in space.

    and tbh, we still haven't figured out how to utilize the gravity that Ant can create just by his shooting prowess yet. but what I am seeing more of is Dame getting off the ball more and drawing two defenders away from him to open up a 4 on 3 advantage for the rest of the guys. that winslow slip of the screen (as dame took two defenders away from the action) to get a dunk was eye opening.

    And the other thing.... Ant looks to be as capable of an iso scorer as CJ while being a substantially better shooter. We keep harping on the defensive similarities between the two while not recognizing that Ant might be the better offensive player. Small sample size, but Ant is scoring 1.15 PPP this year in iso. CJ is only a 0.61 PPP. That is frankly staggering.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2022
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  8. STOMP

    STOMP mere fan

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    -During the regular season, GS started Poole by injury default. As soon as they could, Klay was back as the starter alongside Curry. None chance Poole could have been the main defender against Brown.
    -Mitchell is 25 pounds heavier then Dame or Ant and much more capable of guarding bigger players. Jimmy Butler isn't backing him down into the paint at will.
    -Jrue measured a 6'3 barefoot and 200 lbs at his predraft. So again bigger and more capable of guarding bigger players. Divincenzo measured 6'3.5" 200 at his predraft... so yet again bigger and more capable of guarding bigger players.

    No Simons does not look to have grown to my eyes and is clearly much shorter and slighter then Shaedon who recently measured 6'4.25 200. Sorry, but all your examples come up short and I'm certainly not hanging my hat on the hopeful eyes of homers.

    STOMP
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2022
  9. RR7

    RR7 Well-Known Member

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    Simons himself has said he has grown. I'll take his word for it over yours. Citing pre-draft weights seems silly, as it's easy to see the guys that have put on plenty of muscle in the league. Unless you think dame is still under 190.
     
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  10. SharpesTriumph

    SharpesTriumph Well-Known Member

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    I think DameCJ had a season in the top10 of defense right?

    The problem was having defensive only guy who couldn't shoot such as Turner clogginy the floor. Or a starting forward duo of Aminu and Harmless that could be exploited in the playoffs.

    One way specialist players have much more value in the regular season. In the playoffs they can be attacked on defense or ignored on offense until they're almost unplayable.

    Warriors just won a title with Curry and Poole scoring. But they had two way players all over that roster both starting and on the bench.

    Put two way players next to Dame CJ, or next to Dame Simon's the team might be able to have postseason success.

    Stick a bunch of defensive liabilities like Melo or Kanter next to them, or starting forwards that both struggle offensively and the team will predictably not contend.
     
  11. illmatic99

    illmatic99 formerly yuyuza1

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    Some historical context about iso-scoring:

    CJ: (points per possession)
    22-23: 0.61 (in NO)
    21-22: 0.76 (in Portland)
    20-21: 1.09
    19-20: 0.88
    18-19: 0.96
    17-18: 1.0
    16-17: 0.98

    Ant:
    22-23: 1.15
    21-22: 0.76
    20-21: 0.86
    19-20: 1.00

    Would be really interesting if Ant can keep this up.
     
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  12. Fairly-Hard

    Fairly-Hard Former Member Gone New!

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    And even more so this is pretty much the exact same argument we heard for years with CJ. He wasn’t a great pair with dame and two small non defensive guards wouldn’t work but nobody wanted to give up CJ for peanuts. They all wanted a quality player in return.
     
  13. SharpesTriumph

    SharpesTriumph Well-Known Member

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    Why should anyone care how the game was played 30 years ago? The rules, offense, defense and players are all totally different in today's game.
     
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  14. Idog1976

    Idog1976 Well-Known Member

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    Follow up, why would anyone need to have a signature with their name when it says their name in the picture next to their comment?
     
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  15. Fairly-Hard

    Fairly-Hard Former Member Gone New!

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    Fairly-Hard to figure that out?
     
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  16. STOMP

    STOMP mere fan

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    link? If he had, that would be news that wouldn't have slipped by this board, though you'd have to take that with a grain of salt. For decades almost all players have listed themselves as much bigger then they are for a reason.

    STOMP
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2022
  17. STOMP

    STOMP mere fan

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    I was being expansive asking for any example since the Pistons. If there is a more recent example, of course that would be more relavant. Unfortunately...

    STOMP
     
  18. STOMP

    STOMP mere fan

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    To piss off & confuse petty small minded posters of course!

    STOMP
     
  19. RR7

    RR7 Well-Known Member

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    Will dig for the direct quote from him, sorry, this is marang referencing a previous interview. At the 44:00 mark, roughly.
     
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  20. Idog1976

    Idog1976 Well-Known Member

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    I thought it was to self-referentially imply that one had won a debate by having a name that signifies excessive victory!
     

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